Vasher knows about Kaladin!

[TruthMisting]

Vasher has all the information he needs to piece together the truth:

At the end of Adolin's PoV, Maya tells him that the Heralds did something to protect the spren, this information seems to be available to Maya if not all deadeyes or spren in general, either way Adolin will share it with Urithiru.

KoWT will write about Ishar needed a new Herald for the Oathpact and how he never got one, except they disappeared, protecting the Spren, but Kaladin died, and it poses the question, maybe he had something to do with it as the Wind's champion.

""I can only guess what happened, therefore, to the Knight of Wind. That he is dead is demonstrable. That he succeeded, at least in part, is also demonstrable." 289

"But it was not a complete success, as I have not heard the Wind—neither has Szeth—in years. Save that one whisper.

Regardless, she lives, so perhaps the Oathpact, as it was, held well enough? Even without Szeth to fill the hole?

Or perhaps, as champion of the Wind, Kaladin was able to do something in the end right before he died, which turned Retribution's ire from the spren." 

But say if someone knew how the Heralds and Cognitive Shadows worked(someone who explained the concept to Kaladin in the last book btw) we're to hear all the pieces, he could together that Kaladin DID become a Herald. Vasher knows, whether he'll share or not, I think he won't.

[TheoreticalMagic]

I think a few people are probably going to suspect, but their personal question will be if they're actually sure or just trying to convince themselves of something they want to be true. But once the major players find out about Kaladin's body being discovered near where Szeth - before losing consciousness - had just been talking to a couple of Heralds who wanted to make him a new tenth Herald to replace Jezrien....Jasnah, Shallan, etc should all have a pretty good guess about what happened. They understand enough about the mechanics of stuff by now that combined with Szeth's information, they can be confident a tenth Herald had to have been chosen if something - most likely the Oathpact - is still limiting Retribution in some fashion.

And really, there's not many options for whom that replacement Herald could be. Kaladin being Kaladin, a Windrunner, bonded to the Ancient Daughter.....he's a pretty obvious choice. I think the fact that his body was left behind might give some of them SOME pause, but only in the sense that it makes them question whether the Oathpact is broken beyond repair. Once they realize that something's protecting the spren, as the Knights of Wind and Truth book implies, it makes more sense that becoming a Herald transcends physicality.

After all, they also found Taln and Ash's bodies when they died. They know that the Heralds' unique nature doesn't preclude them leaving a corpse behind when they die. 

So yeah, I'd say most of the main cast have a pretty strong hunch about what happened to Kaladin and are expecting him to be among the Heralds if and when they Return. Its more just that a) they have no idea when that might be or if it'll happen at all, given that the entire original process/mechanism for Heralds' Returns and Desolations is irrelevant, and b) they know they really, really WANT it to be true that Kaladin's dead but not REALLY dead, so they're likely stuck in a state of holding their breath hoping for something they believe to be true to actually be proven true....and while they're still alive to see it.

[TruthMisting]

Jasnah, I think you're actually right, she was grilling ash about her history so she would probably know the heralds bodies are made of investiture, I don't think Taln and Ash did leave behind bodies, since those were just investiture, but I don't think the rest of the cast would have enough information, especially 100% certainty information to make that assumption. Jasnah though... Szeth's wife does mention she, somewhat surprisingly let her write about the cleansing and gave her info on Kaladin... I think Jasnah might know, but I think the rest of the cast are probably thinking Kal is dead or in "denial"

[Ailvara]

Personally, I think this is definitely something at least some characters should strongly suspect. At the same time, I think we're going with the ~20% probability route (number made up) that they won't. Day 10 epigraphs seem pretty set on a version of events where Kaladin died and Heralds are likely destroyed, and that book is written with Jasnah's involvement. I expect we'll go by rule of cool here: it'll be too good of a scene to have a completely surprise return.  Maybe some characters will be like "I KNEW IT" right after the fact, but will still be shocked initially.

[TruthMisting]

19 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Personally, I think this is definitely something at least some characters should strongly suspect. At the same time, I think we're going with the ~20% probability route (number made up) that they Day 10 epigraphs seem pretty set on a version of events where Kaladin died and Heralds are likely destroyed, and that book is written with Jasnah's involvement. I expect we'll go by rule of cool here: it'll be too good of a scene to have a completely surprise return.  Maybe some characters will be like "I KNEW IT" right after the fact, but will still be shocked initially.

That's about what I'm thinking, that some people on a very specific list of realistically aware, only Vasher comes to mind on Roshar, can guess but the rest of the cast is in the dark. I think that there will be people, looking at the Windrunners, that will refuse to believe Kaladin is dead, and might even guess right on the Herald situation. Kaladin's mythology is just another in a long list of things I'm excited to see in arc 2 lol

[TheoreticalMagic]

54 minutes ago, TruthMisting said:

Jasnah, I think you're actually right, she was grilling ash about her history so she would probably know the heralds bodies are made of investiture, I don't think Taln and Ash did leave behind bodies, since those were just investiture, but I don't think the rest of the cast would have enough information, especially 100% certainty information to make that assumption. Jasnah though... Szeth's wife does mention she, somewhat surprisingly let her write about the cleansing and gave her info on Kaladin... I think Jasnah might know, but I think the rest of the cast are probably thinking Kal is dead or in "denial"

Adolin definitely comes across Ash and Taln's dead bodies after they die taking out all the Fused in the battle of Azimir. He thinks about how Taln's corpse looks like it took a dozen lances stuck in him and he's holding the crushed skull of a Fused in his hand. So he for sure knows that Heralds leave bodies behind when they die.

And given its Adolin "I knew there was something weird about that man" Kholin, I would actually love it if tons of more knowledgeable cosmere scholars are sure Kaladin's dead but he's convinced Kal's a Herald now and coming back, and is going to have another "THIS IS WHY PEOPLE SHOULD ALWAYS LISTEN TO ME AND MY RIGHTNESS FOREVER" moment, as one of the only people who manages to not appear at all surprised, just triumphant, when he sees Kaladin speeding into a battle.

Few characters pull off the simple faith in 'good things can still happen, even in Damnation' characterization as well as him, so if I had to PICK just one character to be waiting on Kal's Return, it'd probably be him for that very reason. Plenty of people have theories, but he's convinced its what will happen because the second it occurred to him as a possibility, he decided to just have faith in it until it was definitively proven otherwise. He believed Maya wasn't dead and could still become more than the dead-eye that people and spren "far more knowledgeable than him" kept insisting was all she'd ever be, so it makes sense for him to be like hey, my track record with believing people everyone says are dead aren't actually dead, so I'm gonna keep doing it.

Alternatively, Renarin would be a likely person to catch a glimpse of a possible future showing Kaladin's Return, which could plausibly lead to a small circle of people waiting and hoping for it based on that. 

Edited January 13, 2025 by TheoreticalMagic

[Hexagonal He/Him]

1 hour ago, TheoreticalMagic said:

Alternatively, Renarin would be a likely person to catch a glimpse of a possible future showing Kaladin's Return, which could plausibly lead to a small circle of people waiting and hoping for it based on that. 

Considering Renarin is in Urithiru without stormlight and Adolin is all the way in Azir, I think it's reasonable that they both come to the conclusion independently(at least until they somehow get into communication). Maybe they can get Sja-anat to send them some corrupted firespren to make new spanreeds to work off of warlight.

[TruthMisting]

Adolin and Renarin being able to guess both are great, especially since Renarin is Bridge 4, but was Taln dead? I thought he was just standing there, Shalash says something right? I didn't realize that was Taln's body

Edit: just remember Chana left a body, nvm

Edited January 13, 2025 by TruthMisting

[Treamayne]

The Lopen knows cousin Kaladin can't die that easily.

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

The Lopen knows cousin Kaladin can't die that easily.

I suspect that there is going to be a small religion that believes kaladin is not that and will return most of the characters. I predict will laugh at them with maybe a few, considering the possibility until at least the end of book 2.

[BridgeBoi]

15 minutes ago, bmcclure7 said:

I suspect that there is going to be a small religion that believes kaladin is not that and will return most of the characters. I predict will laugh at them with maybe a few, considering the possibility until at least the end of book 2.

It could end up being like how when Kaladin was in the chasms, where Bridge Four had faith in Kaladin returning and others(Dalinar in the chasms scenario) believe he is dead. If that happens, I think that the remains of Bridge Four will believe in Kaladin and others are more skeptical.

[bmcclure7]

2 hours ago, BridgeBoi said:

It could end up being like how when Kaladin was in the chasms, where Bridge Four had faith in Kaladin returning and others(Dalinar in the chasms scenario) believe he is dead. If that happens, I think that the remains of Bridge Four will believe in Kaladin and others are more skeptical.

Yes I think it will be like that I think we have already seen foreshadowing of this in RoW and TaW

[coolsnow7]

11 hours ago, TruthMisting said:

Vasher has all the information he needs to piece together the truth:

At the end of Adolin's PoV, Maya tells him that the Heralds did something to protect the spren, this information seems to be available to Maya if not all deadeyes or spren in general, either way Adolin will share it with Urithiru.

KoWT will write about Ishar needed a new Herald for the Oathpact and how he never got one, except they disappeared, protecting the Spren, but Kaladin died, and it poses the question, maybe he had something to do with it as the Wind's champion.

""I can only guess what happened, therefore, to the Knight of Wind. That he is dead is demonstrable. That he succeeded, at least in part, is also demonstrable." 289

"But it was not a complete success, as I have not heard the Wind—neither has Szeth—in years. Save that one whisper.

Regardless, she lives, so perhaps the Oathpact, as it was, held well enough? Even without Szeth to fill the hole?

Or perhaps, as champion of the Wind, Kaladin was able to do something in the end right before he died, which turned Retribution's ire from the spren." 

But say if someone knew how the Heralds and Cognitive Shadows worked(someone who explained the concept to Kaladin in the last book btw) we're to hear all the pieces, he could together that Kaladin DID become a Herald. Vasher knows, whether he'll share or not, I think he won't.

I think, like with Taravangian=>Odium, people will start figuring it out.

The question is will they figure out the full extent, ie that the Heralds are planning for a comeback. I don’t think that information is accessible - to anyone, at all, full stop. So it’s not clear what they’d do with it.

[Hexagonal He/Him]

8 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

The question is will they figure out the full extent, ie that the Heralds are planning for a comeback. I don’t think that information is accessible - to anyone, at all, full stop. So it’s not clear what they’d do with it.

I would wager it will be more along the lines of guess work, as if people can figure out the oathpact is still working(albeit in a different manner) and Kaladin is maybe a new herald, it would make sense that they might return. As people have mentioned, people(especially bridge 4) would likely find out about Kaladin's possible heraldness and wait for his return. Lopen, Skar, and the others would definitely be much more likely to spread the idea of another return with Kaladin being a herald.

[Officer Paiin]

The Sig/Wit connection leads me to believe that at least one member of bridge 4 will find out before too long. Whether he's around to share the news or not...who's to say.

[Draelyn]

On 1/13/2025 at 9:51 AM, TruthMisting said:

Jasnah, I think you're actually right, she was grilling ash about her history so she would probably know the heralds bodies are made of investiture, I don't think Taln and Ash did leave behind bodies, since those were just investiture, but I don't think the rest of the cast would have enough information, especially 100% certainty information to make that assumption. Jasnah though... Szeth's wife does mention she, somewhat surprisingly let her write about the cleansing and gave her info on Kaladin... I think Jasnah might know, but I think the rest of the cast are probably thinking Kal is dead or in "denial"

Taln and Ash left bodies in Azir when they died in combat atop a pile of bodies 100's deep. I don't remember exact wording but they did leave behind bodies there the only body left in shinovar was Kaladins.

[Treamayne]

On 1/15/2025 at 4:50 PM, Draelyn said:

Taln and Ash left bodies in Azir when they died in combat atop a pile of bodies 100's deep. I don't remember exact wording but they did leave behind bodies there the only body left in shinovar was Kaladins.

Because those Heralds voluntarily returned, rather than being killed and forcibly returned. 

[ChillPenguin]

On 1/13/2025 at 2:56 PM, Hexagonal said:

Considering Renarin is in Urithiru without stormlight and Adolin is all the way in Azir, I think it's reasonable that they both come to the conclusion independently(at least until they somehow get into communication). Maybe they can get Sja-anat to send them some corrupted firespren to make new spanreeds to work off of warlight.

Doesn’t Urithuru still have TowerLight? This would let anyone still in/around the tower use their surges right?

I get that they couldn’t leave and keep using them but Renarin should still be able to read visions. Jasnah can also make elsegates from there - she just would have to not cross through or else she’d be trapped.

I also agree that some characters could put the pieces together but my bet is that most of them won’t. Zahel, for example, usually keeps info to himself unless it is really needed and he also knows when something is best kept a secret. As much as it could be comforting for Lirin, etc to know Kal is still out there, Zahel won’t tell (if he even suspects).

Also, this explains why Sig feels the way he does about Kaladin in SLM. He’s a scholar and had a ton of time to think, but it seems he doesn’t even think it’s possible that Kaladin is still out there. I assume he also is too busy to care/get news from Roshar.

[Nitpicking]

On 1/31/2025 at 1:07 PM, ChillPenguin said:

Also, this explains why Sig feels the way he does about Kaladin in SLM. He’s a scholar and had a ton of time to think, but it seems he doesn’t even think it’s possible that Kaladin is still out there. I assume he also is too busy to care/get news from Roshar.

By Sunlit Man, Kaladin might actually be dead. Heralds are unaging, but not true immortals. We saw one killed.

[BinarySecond]

On 1/13/2025 at 8:38 PM, Treamayne said:

The Lopen knows cousin Kaladin can't die that easily.

He's going to get a massive payout when the Heralds return. He's surely put money on Kal coming back.

[Ailvara]

So by a quick browsing I didn't see anyone else mention this - should Hoid have an idea? Despite all the talk about one or both of them most likely dying, he literally called it out:

Quote

"I want you to march off to your divine destiny with a spring in your step."

IDK what kind of foresight this was, but he seems aware of what options are on the table, at least. Not that he's anywhere around to tell anybody, so the secret is safe anyway.

[ChillPenguin]

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

So by a quick browsing I didn't see anyone else mention this - should Hoid have an idea? Despite all the talk about one or both of them most likely dying, he literally called it out:

IDK what kind of foresight this was, but he seems aware of what options are on the table, at least. Not that he's anywhere around to tell anybody, so the secret is safe anyway.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Hoid was able to talk to the Wind. Still he seemed very surprised at what Dalinar did… and him having foresight into what happened to Kaladin doesn’t quite jive with that. Maybe he thought a repaired Oathpact would be needed even if Dalinar won.

My take on it is that no one knows Kaladin survives as a Herald. Hoid probably won’t be surprised when he finds out though. 

[Nitpicking]

Hoid has limited access to Fortune. He mostly knows where to go, seemingly, but not the shape of the future.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

Loving all of this speculation! 

On 1/13/2025 at 5:05 PM, bmcclure7 said:

I suspect that there is going to be a small religion that believes kaladin is not that and will return most of the characters. I predict will laugh at them with maybe a few, considering the possibility until at least the end of book 2.

This is where my brain went too - it’s going to be a similar thing to the church of the survivor maybe but on a much smaller scale. We saw the bridge 4 crew waiting for Kaladin to come out of the chasms when everyone else thought he was dead. We sad the people putting glyphs on their foreheads when they believed he would save them.
 

Maybe this time around, Lirin is one of the first to put a glyph on his forehead and declare that he knows his son is not gone, so long as he lives in the hearts of men? Of course he’d mean it in a spiritual feel-good way, and he’d be one of the most shocked when Kaladin actually did return lol 

[bmcclure7]

On 2/11/2025 at 7:40 AM, CognitiveShadow said:

Loving all of this speculation! 

This is where my brain went too - it’s going to be a similar thing to the church of the survivor maybe but on a much smaller scale. We saw the bridge 4 crew waiting for Kaladin to come out of the chasms when everyone else thought he was dead. We sad the people putting glyphs on their foreheads when they believed he would save them.
 

Maybe this time around, Lirin is one of the first to put a glyph on his forehead and declare that he knows his son is not gone, so long as he lives in the hearts of men? Of course he’d mean it in a spiritual feel-good way, and he’d be one of the most shocked when Kaladin actually did return lol 

That would be a amazing character arc for Lirin