How united are the Singers?

[Letryx13]

Something I've wondered about is what the singers will do during the time skip. Something that Sanderson has been pretty good about is turning expectations against his readers, such as assuming that all members of groups are united in one way or another. A good example of this is when Adolin is talking to Peak spren on his journey to Lasting Integrity and finds out they have different nationalities.  And those nationalities don't seem to think too highly of each other.

Which makes me think that things might get a little chaotic for the Singer nations going forward.  The main thing that united them for the past several thousand years was common cause. Namely, defeating the humans and followers of Honor. Not only is that gone, but the deity that they followed and kept them together is gone as well.  And who know when he's coming back.

Combine that with the fact that their world has now changed completely with the Ever Storm and the singers might not be so happy about the world they ended up with. The singers are not above abusing their fellows for one reason or another. After Kaladin spent time with newly awakened singers, Sah and his fellows were basically enslaved. They even complained that they went from being abused by humans to being abused by their own people. And they were not happy about it.

Sure, the Fuzed are still around, but they create their own wrinkle. Most of them want to be done with the conflict. Rabonial wanted anti light partially to help end Fuzed suffering. One of the Fuzed told Venli in Oathbringer that the Fuzed would be able to rest after they won back Roshar. They've basically done that. If Taravangian doesn't let them pass on, then they might start to decide they don't want to follow him anymore. Leshwi proves it's possible even for Fuzed to defect.

What do I think that means? Well, as was pointed out during the meeting between the Mink, Dalinar, Jasnah, and Navani, Altehkar's unification didn't last a decade after Gavilar's death. Dalinar even points out in TWoK that the most delicate point in any nation's founding is immediately after the death of its founder. If that founder is Odium, while he may not be dead, he isn't on the planet anymore, which is pretty much as good as being dead as far as the people of Roshar are concerned. At least for now.  And in that situation, considering the singers adopted much of their personalities from the human nations they come from and how those nations weren't all friendly, I think conflict between Singer nations is extremely likely.

Rayse and Taravangian were planning on being there on Roshar to be able to build up militaries to send them off world for his eventual conquest of the cosmere. But since Retribution had to flee, he basically had to leave his followers behind to fend for themselves. If Hoid is correct, and Taravangian doesn't pay as much attention to Roshar as he should while he's gone, then I'd wager that large cracks will start to appear in the Singer nations. Cracks that the humans will be able to exploit in a counterattack. 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

If Hoid is correct, and Taravangian doesn't pay as much attention to Roshar as he should while he's gone, then I'd wager that large cracks will start to appear in the Singer nations. Cracks that the humans will be able to exploit in a counterattack. 

Or forge a peace. Way back in OB we see in the disussion with the Fused and the Thaylen Singer (Venli Translating) that the Singers didn't want to attack their home and did not seem to mind the idea of living with humans, so long as they were free. It was the fused pushing to "eradicate all humans" not the singers. 

OB Ch 115:

Spoiler

“We…” The singer licked his lips. “We aren’t soldiers, ma’am. We’re fishers. What are we doing here?” Though a shade of the Rhythm of Anxiety laced his words, his cringing form and face were the stronger indication. He spoke and acted like a human.

She interpreted.

“You are here to do as you are told,” the Fused told them, through Venli. “In return, you are rewarded with further opportunities to serve.” Though his rhythm was Derision, he didn’t seem angry. More … as if he were lecturing a child.

She passed that along, and the sailors looked to each other, shuffling uncomfortably.

“They wish to object,” she told the Fused. “I can read it in them.”

“They may speak,” he said.

She prompted them, and their leader looked down, then spoke to Anxiety. “It’s just that … Thaylen City? This is our home. We’re expected to attack it?”

“Yes,” the Fused said after Venli interpreted. “They enslaved you. They tore your families apart, treated you like dumb animals. Do you not thirst for vengeance?”

“Vengeance?” the sailor said, looking to his fellows for support. “We’re glad to be free. But … I mean … some of them treated us pretty nice. Can’t we just go settle somewhere, and leave the Thaylens alone?”

“No,” the Fused said. 

 

[MagicMaggot]

I'm not sure if there will be larger-scale conflict between singer nations, but I am very, very sure there will be resistance and subversion to Retribution's empire going on. And I am just as sure that Venli's Willshapers, the "I will seek freedom for those in bondage"- guys, will be involved (finally paying of that sloooooooowmoving development...). And considering that we are likely planting Renarin and his Mindbridger in these areas, I'd guess that human-singer-relations within the singer empire could be a major point of contention. I actually don't think that that will be as simple as Retribution-alingned vs resistance, since Taravangian and his officers like El were quite open to more egalitarian treatment, but we also have singers and a lot of fused, who probably wouldn't take legal equality or anything close to it with grace. 

Oh, and then there is BAM. The less attention Retribution can spare, the more Mishram can be expected to meddle, and she certainly will be where her people are, if anywhere.

 

Edited January 13, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[AquaRegia he/him]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

Something that Sanderson has been pretty good about is turning expectations against his readers, such as assuming that all members of groups are united in one way or another.

Agreed.  It's clearly a theme he wants to explore: to what extent do individuals adhere to group identity?  Every group we've ever seen - in all his work - has had factions and dissenters.  And in every case, he's done a commendable job of showing that no matter what group we "belong" to, we are all PEOPLE at the end of the day, capable of making our own choices.

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

united them for the past several thousand years was common cause. Namely, defeating the humans and followers of Honor.

I'd say it was already more complicated than that.  The Listeners decided to walk away from singer "identity" long ago, and I'm sure they were hardly the only ones unhappy with how things were going back then.

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

the singers adopted much of their personalities from the human nations they come from

I expect this is only part of what Brandon is trying to show us.  I think it's safe to assume that he's picturing the pre-human-invasion singers as similar in many ways to pre-colonial indigenous peoples here on Earth, like native Americans or native Africans.  There was no uniform culture across those vast continents, but rather a multitude of tribes and small nations, each with their own unique history and tradition.  I imagine the singers the same way.  When BAM was imprisoned, the singers lost most of their sapience and free will (with the exception of the Listeners) and of course all their various cultures were lost.  That was around 100 generations ago.

Suddenly, the Everstorm arrives and all the slaveform singers return to full personhood.  They remember their lives as slaves, but obviously none of them can possibly know anything about whatever culture their ancestors had.  As you say, the only culture they know is the one they were raised in - Alethi, Veden, Thaylen, etc.  Their original culture, whatever it might have looked like, was stolen from them, and (like all of Sazed's religions) it's long gone.  Of course they fall back on what they know, and of course they also resent it, and try to create new cultural traditions of their own.  If it sounds familiar, I think it's by design.

We also know that there were humans who fought on Odium's side during the Desolations, as well as singers who fought on Honor's.  And I'm willing to bet there were MANY, human and sInger, who didn't fight at all, and simply wished to be left alone.  Again, everyone in the Cosmere, no matter race, is a person.

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

I'd wager that large cracks will start to appear in the Singer nations. Cracks that the humans will be able to exploit in a counterattack. 

There is no doubt that said cracks are already there.  But any argument that assumes single, simple "human" and "singer" interests is missing the essential point.  There is no group identity, on individual people, trying their best.  There will be people (of all races, human, singer and spren) who are angry and want to fight; there will be people (of all races) who want to work together, and there will be people who want to be left alone.  It will indeed be a chaotic mix, expected on a large post-war multiethnic continent.  Nothing on the Cosmere is as simple as we might wish it to be.

17 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

the Singers didn't want to attack their home and did not seem to mind the idea of living with humans, so long as they were free. It was the fused pushing to "eradicate all humans" not the singers. 

True, but again keep in mind: not ALL singers, and not even all Fused.

I expect that when the Stormlight Archives resumes, well see some nations of primarily singers, some primarily human, and some mixed, with all the complicated racism and patriotism one can imagine.  Some will get along happily, some grudgingly, and some will fight.

[Treamayne]

7 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

8 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

It was the fused

True, but again keep in mind: not ALL singers, and not even all Fused.

Concur absolutely. I'm sorry I was unclear that I was using "fused" in that sentence in the singular (the specific fused talking in the reference quote). 

[Letryx13]

27 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Or forge a peace. Way back in OB we see in the disussion with the Fused and the Thaylen Singer (Venli Translating) that the Singers didn't want to attack their home and did not seem to mind the idea of living with humans, so long as they were free. It was the fused pushing to "eradicate all humans" not the singers. 

OB Ch 115:

  Reveal hidden contents

“We…” The singer licked his lips. “We aren’t soldiers, ma’am. We’re fishers. What are we doing here?” Though a shade of the Rhythm of Anxiety laced his words, his cringing form and face were the stronger indication. He spoke and acted like a human.

She interpreted.

“You are here to do as you are told,” the Fused told them, through Venli. “In return, you are rewarded with further opportunities to serve.” Though his rhythm was Derision, he didn’t seem angry. More … as if he were lecturing a child.

She passed that along, and the sailors looked to each other, shuffling uncomfortably.

“They wish to object,” she told the Fused. “I can read it in them.”

“They may speak,” he said.

She prompted them, and their leader looked down, then spoke to Anxiety. “It’s just that … Thaylen City? This is our home. We’re expected to attack it?”

“Yes,” the Fused said after Venli interpreted. “They enslaved you. They tore your families apart, treated you like dumb animals. Do you not thirst for vengeance?”

“Vengeance?” the sailor said, looking to his fellows for support. “We’re glad to be free. But … I mean … some of them treated us pretty nice. Can’t we just go settle somewhere, and leave the Thaylens alone?”

“No,” the Fused said. 

 

Possibly. But that akso proves the singers weren't as united as the humans thought.

11 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

Oh, and then there is BAM. The less attention Retribution can spare, the more Mishram can be expected to meddle, and she certainly will be where her people are, if anywhere.

 

True. She is absolutely a huge factor. But after what happened last time, the singers will likely be hesitant to work with her.

4 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

I'd say it was already more complicated than that.  The Listeners decided to walk away from singer "identity" long ago, and I'm sure they were hardly the only ones unhappy with how things were going back then.

Agreed. Rabonial confirmed there were many attempts to resist Fuzed rule in the times of the ancient radiants.

5 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

I expect this is only part of what Brandon is trying to show us.  I think it's safe to assume that he's picturing the pre-human-invasion singers as similar in many ways to pre-colonial indigenous peoples here on Earth, like native Americans or native Africans.  There was no uniform culture across those vast continents, but rather a multitude of tribes and small nations, each with their own unique history and tradition.  I imagine the singers the same way.  When BAM was imprisoned, the singers lost most of their sapience and free will (with the exception of the Listeners) and of course all their various cultures were lost.  That was around 100 generations ago.

Suddenly, the Everstorm arrives and all the slaveform singers return to full personhood.  They remember their lives as slaves, but obviously none of them can possibly know anything about whatever culture their ancestors had.  As you say, the only culture they know is the one they were raised in - Alethi, Veden, Thaylen, etc.  Their original culture, whatever it might have looked like, was stolen from them, and (like all of Sazed's religions) it's long gone.  Of course they fall back on what they know, and of course they also resent it, and try to create new cultural traditions of their own.  If it sounds familiar, I think it's by design.

We also know that there were humans who fought on Odium's side during the Desolations, as well as singers who fought on Honor's.  And I'm willing to bet there were MANY, human and sInger, who didn't fight at all, and simply wished to be left alone.  Again, everyone in the Cosmere, no matter race, is a person.

 

I suspect Connection plays a large role in it too. That was my impression ever since we saw how differently the different singers acted after they were restored by the Everstorm. Since their souls were missing such a large piece, the Everstorm connected them to the land they were born to. Kind of like certain language abilities that Dalinar could do, but much more powerful.

7 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

There is no doubt that said cracks are already there.  But any argument that assumes single, simple "human" and "singer" interests is missing the essential point.  There is no group identity, on individual people, trying their best.  There will be people (of all races, human, singer and spren) who are angry and want to fight; there will be people (of all races) who want to work together, and there will be people who want to be left alone.  It will indeed be a chaotic mix, expected on a large post-war multiethnic continent.  Nothing on the Cosmere is as simple as we might wish it to be.

True, and that was foolish of me to simplify it like that. What I meant was, there would be cracks that any who oppose Retribution can exploit.

8 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

True, but again keep in mind: not ALL singers, and not even all Fused.

I expect that when the Stormlight Archives resumes, well see some nations of primarily singers, some primarily human, and some mixed, with all the complicated racism and patriotism one can imagine.  Some will get along happily, some grudgingly, and some will fight.

That's kind of what I mean. So many will want to take different roads that it's going to lead to conflict. With both fuzed and regular singers. Without someone powerful to unify the singers, things are going to get messy, which will cause real problems for Taravangian when he eventually returns.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

There will be internal social conflict. The next generation of Singers will not be content with letting the Fused rule. In fact they will eventually see them as parasitic bodysnatchers. If Fused bodies age they will be forced to use suicidal Singers or criminals tortured into accepting a Fused as hosts. That is not a recipe for staying popular.

[RedBlue]

3 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

And in that situation, considering the singers adopted much of their personalities from the human nations they come from and how those nations weren't all friendly, I think conflict between Singer nations is extremely likely.

Conflict within Singer nations may be a problem, too.

With Taravangian’s attention being diverted, territories that don’t have clear leadership in place (Alethkar, Shinovar, Iri) are going to have a power struggle bonanza. The Fused have the upper hand in terms of authority and fighting ability, but only 2000 of them are functional. And the ‘functional’ Fused include many who are unsuited or unwilling to fill administrative roles. So you can fill out the most senior government positions with Fused, but other civil servants will have to be quickly recruited from the local humans and Singers. There’s going to be a mad scramble for influence.

And on top of that, there will likely be myriad splinter groups of Singers (and humans!) who don’t like being subjugated by Shards and Fused, and want to break away. And Venli and the Willshapers on the Shattered Plains are in place to aid their cause.

And the nature of Retribution could make it hard for Taravangian to crack down on this sort of thing, even when he does have time and bandwidth to deal with it. Odium likes people who struggle to assert their own will, even if they’re disagreeing with the power’s Vessel. And Honor will severely limit Taravangian’s options in wrangling his subjects, because it will hold him to the letter of every promise he makes.

[MagicMaggot]

2 hours ago, Letryx13 said:

But after what happened last time, the singers will likely be hesitant to work with her.

Which singers? Which is kind of the point of the thread, isn't it?

Apart from that, neither the ex-parshmen, nor the fused have had anything to do with the false desolation. They might be able to get accountsa of it, but it wouldn't be any more personal than accounts of the ancient radiants were to the humans. If Retribution himself doesn't stoke resentment against BAM, I don't see why there wouldn't be singers that would flock to her powers. 
BAM isn't necessarily a one-trick-pony, either. Odium's power is around, dissident singers don't need someone to grant them forms of power. They might need someone with power to back them up, though. 

[Letryx13]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

There will be internal social conflict. The next generation of Singers will not be content with letting the Fused rule. In fact they will eventually see them as parasitic bodysnatchers. If Fused bodies age they will be forced to use suicidal Singers or criminals tortured into accepting a Fused as hosts. That is not a recipe for staying popular.

Also true. Venli managed to recruit people in Kholinar largely because of their fear of being taken over by Fuzed. Or at least their desire to be free of them.

43 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

Conflict within Singer nations may be a problem, too.

With Taravangian’s attention being diverted, territories that don’t have clear leadership in place (Alethkar, Shinovar, Iri) are going to have a power struggle bonanza. The Fused have the upper hand in terms of authority and fighting ability, but only 2000 of them are functional. And the ‘functional’ Fused include many who are unsuited or unwilling to fill administrative roles. So you can fill out the most senior government positions with Fused, but other civil servants will have to be quickly recruited from the local humans and Singers. There’s going to be a mad scramble for influence.

And on top of that, there will likely be myriad splinter groups of Singers (and humans!) who don’t like being subjugated by Shards and Fused, and want to break away. And Venli and the Willshapers on the Shattered Plains are in place to aid their cause.

 Exactly. The Fuzed will only be capable of doing so much with so few of them. And without a war to keep the singer masses focused outward, they're going to want to assert their independence.

46 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

And the nature of Retribution could make it hard for Taravangian to crack down on this sort of thing, even when he does have time and bandwidth to deal with it. Odium likes people who struggle to assert their own will, even if they’re disagreeing with the power’s Vessel. And Honor will severely limit Taravangian’s options in wrangling his subjects, because it will hold him to the letter of every promise he makes.

That's another factor, but then again, Taravangian could view that as a betrayal of loyalty to him. And we don't know how long it will take Honor to grow enough to begin exerting more influence over Taravangian's decisions.

15 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

Which singers? Which is kind of the point of the thread, isn't it?

Yes, it mostly depends on how many Singers know how they ended up as Parshmen.  Some would likely be willing to trust Mishram again, but most would likely be wary of allying with her again. Taravangian noted the his most valuable asset with the Singers was their rage toward humans. The reason most singers hated humans so much was because of what they were forced to endure as Parshmen. And Mishram was a big part of how they got turned into Parshmen.

 

[MagicMaggot]

4 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

And Mishram was a big part of how they got turned into Parshmen.

By getting captured by some new dastardly human weapon? Not sure I'd blame her for that in their position, assuming I'd know anything about that at all. Apart from that... it's not really the singers' choice, is it? If she decides to support dissidents, she'll support dissitents, and they can't really stop her. What are they gonna do, tell Retribution?

[Letryx13]

22 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

By getting captured by some new dastardly human weapon? Not sure I'd blame her for that in their position, assuming I'd know anything about that at all. Apart from that... it's not really the singers' choice, is it? If she decides to support dissidents, she'll support dissitents, and they can't really stop her. What are they gonna do, tell Retribution?

Well, it's more of a question of risk than blame. However it happened, it happened while they were all bonded to her. As far as who she supports, it's true that she would likely focus on those who oppose Retribution, well, she's probably not going to go where she's not wanted. And she likely can't empower Singers without their consent.

[MagicMaggot]

1 minute ago, Letryx13 said:

it's more of a question of risk than blame.

Amd that's why I said she doesn't have to do the same thing she did last time, since they don't need forms of power from her, so the risk wouldn't be the same, either.

2 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

she's probably not going to go where she's not wanted.

Why not? I mean, it's not like we have gotten to know her that much. 

[Letryx13]

3 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

Amd that's why I said she doesn't have to do the same thing she did last time, since they don't need forms of power from her, so the risk wouldn't be the same, either.

True, we have no idea what she might do to help the singers this time around.

3 hours ago, MagicMaggot said:

Why not? I mean, it's not like we have gotten to know her that much. 

No one enjoys it when their help goes unappreciated. Who would a pseudo-deity rather support, people who appreciate her help or people who don't?

[Asininity]

I was wondering the same thing, there's definitely a nice setup for chaos and massive shift in power dynamic.

The Shards are already on the move, likely pursuing two main objectives. Their primary goal seems to be locating Taravangian and forcing him into a direct confrontation where he’s outnumbered. I suspect they wouldn’t hesitate to destroy the entire Rosharan system if that’s what it took to eliminate Retribution. However, whatever protections are in place around Roshar still appear to hold, forcing them to act indirectly through proxies.

Their secondary goal would likely be to pacify Roshar and its surgebinders. Weakening Taravangian’s foothold by destabilizing his loyal factions or neutralizing the threat of surgebinding would significantly undermine his influence. Infiltrating Roshar, taking control of its politics, and luring Retribution out of hiding seems like the most probable strategy to achieve this.

I believe that Taravangian hasn’t left Roshar entirely. More likely, he’s hiding within the Spiritual Realm. Roshar is critical to his plans, and abandoning it would be an enormous risk, especially considering how heavily invested he is in the system. However, his ability to exert influence is now limited. He’ll be forced to act subtly to avoid detection, as any overt moves could draw the attention of other Shards.

Taravangian’s absence from direct control has left his newfound empire with an empty throne, creating a massive power vacuum, especially with the Fused, Radiants, and Heralds largely out of the picture. In this void, new factions are bound to emerge, each vying for dominance over Roshar.

El will likely take control over Odium loyalists. His vision aligns closely with Taravangian’s methods, emphasizing order and calculated ruthlessness. He may aim to bring both singers and humans under his leadership, forming a cohesive, authoritarian, force.

On the other hand, Ba-Ado-Mishram could become a rallying point for dissenters. With Retribution unable to fully manifest his Intent, power may gravitate back toward her. Unlike Rayse, Taravangian never presented himself as one of the singers, which could alienate many Parshendi. Ba-Ado-Mishram, with her historical connection to their people, may once again rise as a symbol of resistance and leadership.

Meanwhile, the Blackthorn has his own mission - gathering his Nine Shadows. This task will inevitably place him in direct conflict with Ba-Ado-Mishram, as her influence threatens his ability to consolidate power. Dalinar remains a potent symbol, and many humans—and perhaps even some singers—will rally behind him. This time, his vision of unity might come not through diplomacy, but conquest.

[Hexagonal He/Him]

2 hours ago, Asininity said:

On the other hand, Ba-Ado-Mishram could become a rallying point for dissenters. With Retribution unable to fully manifest his Intent, power may gravitate back toward her. Unlike Rayse, Taravangian never presented himself as one of the singers, which could alienate many Parshendi. Ba-Ado-Mishram, with her historical connection to their people, may once again rise as a symbol of resistance and leadership.

I agree with you on this. BAM being the biggest non-shard rival to Retribution would give her a lot of "street cred" with people, especially ones who might not want to fully resist Retribution yet. I could see BAM leading a group of singers that are more independent from Retribution but still kinda under him, like a satellite state.

[Letryx13]

On 1/14/2025 at 8:33 AM, Hexagonal said:

I agree with you on this. BAM being the biggest non-shard rival to Retribution would give her a lot of "street cred" with people, especially ones who might not want to fully resist Retribution yet. I could see BAM leading a group of singers that are more independent from Retribution but still kinda under him, like a satellite state.

The problem is that if the singers get wind that BAM was the spren their ancestors were bonded to, turning them into parshmen, they may be reluctant to work with her. She may not have done it intentionally, but there's still a risk factor.

On 1/14/2025 at 6:24 AM, Asininity said:

I was wondering the same thing, there's definitely a nice setup for chaos and massive shift in power dynamic.

The Shards are already on the move, likely pursuing two main objectives. Their primary goal seems to be locating Taravangian and forcing him into a direct confrontation where he’s outnumbered. I suspect they wouldn’t hesitate to destroy the entire Rosharan system if that’s what it took to eliminate Retribution. However, whatever protections are in place around Roshar still appear to hold, forcing them to act indirectly through proxies.

Agreed. We don't know which shards would be doing this, but it's clear that Harmony would if he could. Unfortunately, not only is he dealing with his own threat in Autonomy, but there's the issue of him having trouble acting while holding opposing shards. Of course, a common threat tends to unite people, even when they have their differences from one another. So if three or more of the shards can work together to pin Retribution down, he's screwed. 

On 1/14/2025 at 6:24 AM, Asininity said:

Their secondary goal would likely be to pacify Roshar and its surgebinders. Weakening Taravangian’s foothold by destabilizing his loyal factions or neutralizing the threat of surgebinding would significantly undermine his influence. Infiltrating Roshar, taking control of its politics, and luring Retribution out of hiding seems like the most probable strategy to achieve this.

Also agreed. It's somewhat ironic, considering how much they've been a problem for Roshar, but the Ghost Bloods would be extremely useful for this, since it's exactly the sort of thing that their leader is good at. It's basically how he achieved his first real victory against a different, albeit more well intentioned, would be deity. 

On 1/14/2025 at 6:24 AM, Asininity said:

I believe that Taravangian hasn’t left Roshar entirely. More likely, he’s hiding within the Spiritual Realm. Roshar is critical to his plans, and abandoning it would be an enormous risk, especially considering how heavily invested he is in the system. However, his ability to exert influence is now limited. He’ll be forced to act subtly to avoid detection, as any overt moves could draw the attention of other Shards.

Hard to say. But I suspect if there's anything of him left on Roshar, it's not much. He won't risk himself getting caught like that. Taravangian basically thought he won Roshar by taking up the shard of Honor. And he's arrogant enough to assume that no on left there would defy him. Time will tell.

On 1/14/2025 at 6:24 AM, Asininity said:

Taravangian’s absence from direct control has left his newfound empire with an empty throne, creating a massive power vacuum, especially with the Fused, Radiants, and Heralds largely out of the picture. In this void, new factions are bound to emerge, each vying for dominance over Roshar.

Exactly. That's the premise for this idea.

On 1/14/2025 at 6:24 AM, Asininity said:

El will likely take control over Odium loyalists. His vision aligns closely with Taravangian’s methods, emphasizing order and calculated ruthlessness. He may aim to bring both singers and humans under his leadership, forming a cohesive, authoritarian, force.

He's the obvious choice. But the thing is that we still know so little about him. So it's hard to say what it is that he really wants.

On 1/14/2025 at 6:24 AM, Asininity said:

On the other hand, Ba-Ado-Mishram could become a rallying point for dissenters. With Retribution unable to fully manifest his Intent, power may gravitate back toward her. Unlike Rayse, Taravangian never presented himself as one of the singers, which could alienate many Parshendi. Ba-Ado-Mishram, with her historical connection to their people, may once again rise as a symbol of resistance and leadership.

She's arguably the biggest wild card left on Roshar, except possibly the Night Watcher. There's no real way to know what she's going to do. Rayse never wanted her freed, likely realizing that her imprisonment was part of why the shard of Honor hadn't chosen a new vessel. But since it was both a human who locked her up and a human that helped free her, it's impossible to guess what she's planning on doing.

On 1/14/2025 at 6:24 AM, Asininity said:

Meanwhile, the Blackthorn has his own mission - gathering his Nine Shadows. This task will inevitably place him in direct conflict with Ba-Ado-Mishram, as her influence threatens his ability to consolidate power. Dalinar remains a potent symbol, and many humans—and perhaps even some singers—will rally behind him. This time, his vision of unity might come not through diplomacy, but conquest.

This is one of the things I didn't like about this book. It makes sense that the spiritual aspects of people can connect, even across time, but for the spiritual aspect of Dalinar in the past to become aware like that opens up way too many possibilities. It's basically magical cloning. Assuming this new Blackthorn becomes as alive as Dalinar, then there's no reason he couldn't travel back to the spiritual realm and do the same thing to more past versions of Dalinar. 

Edited January 15, 2025 by Letryx13
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[Hexagonal He/Him]

1 hour ago, Letryx13 said:

This is one of the things I didn't like about this book. It makes sense that the spiritual aspects of people can connect, even across time, but for the spiritual aspect of Dalinar in the past to become aware like that opens up way too many possibilities. It's basically magical cloning. Assuming this new Blackthorn becomes as alive as Dalinar, then there's no reason he couldn't travel back to the spiritual realm and do the same thing to more past versions of Dalinar. 

I think part of what made the new Blackthorn was Dalinar meeting his old self in the visions. It seems like that would be possible to do with others, but somewhat difficult. I think that Retribution would have to focus his attention on someone to create a vision that could form a spiritual aspect of someone. That, to me, means creating more spiritual aspects quite unlikely. I do get the concern that it is a strange way to get a bunch of Dalinars, but it seemed to me that it needed the living person to interact with some potency with their vision self. 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 1/13/2025 at 7:55 AM, Letryx13 said:

Something I've wondered about is what the singers will do during the time skip. Something that Sanderson has been pretty good about is turning expectations against his readers, such as assuming that all members of groups are united in one way or another. A good example of this is when Adolin is talking to Peak spren on his journey to Lasting Integrity and finds out they have different nationalities.  And those nationalities don't seem to think too highly of each other.

Which makes me think that things might get a little chaotic for the Singer nations going forward.  The main thing that united them for the past several thousand years was common cause. Namely, defeating the humans and followers of Honor. Not only is that gone, but the deity that they followed and kept them together is gone as well.  And who know when he's coming back.

Combine that with the fact that their world has now changed completely with the Ever Storm and the singers might not be so happy about the world they ended up with. The singers are not above abusing their fellows for one reason or another. After Kaladin spent time with newly awakened singers, Sah and his fellows were basically enslaved. They even complained that they went from being abused by humans to being abused by their own people. And they were not happy about it.

Sure, the Fuzed are still around, but they create their own wrinkle. Most of them want to be done with the conflict. Rabonial wanted anti light partially to help end Fuzed suffering. One of the Fuzed told Venli in Oathbringer that the Fuzed would be able to rest after they won back Roshar. They've basically done that. If Taravangian doesn't let them pass on, then they might start to decide they don't want to follow him anymore. Leshwi proves it's possible even for Fuzed to defect.

What do I think that means? Well, as was pointed out during the meeting between the Mink, Dalinar, Jasnah, and Navani, Altehkar's unification didn't last a decade after Gavilar's death. Dalinar even points out in TWoK that the most delicate point in any nation's founding is immediately after the death of its founder. If that founder is Odium, while he may not be dead, he isn't on the planet anymore, which is pretty much as good as being dead as far as the people of Roshar are concerned. At least for now.  And in that situation, considering the singers adopted much of their personalities from the human nations they come from and how those nations weren't all friendly, I think conflict between Singer nations is extremely likely.

Rayse and Taravangian were planning on being there on Roshar to be able to build up militaries to send them off world for his eventual conquest of the cosmere. But since Retribution had to flee, he basically had to leave his followers behind to fend for themselves. If Hoid is correct, and Taravangian doesn't pay as much attention to Roshar as he should while he's gone, then I'd wager that large cracks will start to appear in the Singer nations. Cracks that the humans will be able to exploit in a counterattack. 

This is, in part, what Dalinar's parting thoughts to Taravangian were about. The Sunmaker's Gambit, which Adolin has also talked about at length. Taravangian is in for a world's worth of bureaucracy, and he lost Azir...which honestly might be the single greatest loss of day 10 in the long term. And yeah, everything you're bringing up here is valid to an extent, for sure. 

We'll just have to wait for the next time Sanderson gets a Roshar itch he can't ignore, to find out what post Night of Sorrows Roshar looks like. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 1/14/2025 at 12:24 PM, Asininity said:

The Shards are already on the move, likely pursuing two main objectives. Their primary goal seems to be locating Taravangian and forcing him into a direct confrontation where he’s outnumbered. I suspect they wouldn’t hesitate to destroy the entire Rosharan system if that’s what it took to eliminate Retribution. However, whatever protections are in place around Roshar still appear to hold, forcing them to act indirectly through proxies.

I am afraid I need to point out that Ba-Ado-Mishram knows that, too. So do the Fused. In fact, so do the humans who are aware of the wider Cosmere. So do the Spren.

Hence the basic question: What is important enough to continue warfare on Roshar? Yes, they could struggle for dominance internally. But is that worth open warfare?