I don't get some of the hate

[AquaRegia he/him]

26 minutes ago, Starthief said:

My main disappointment with Wind and Truth, if it's even really disappointment, was that the raw emotional impact of the "big hero moments," major setbacks and huge revelations seemed a lot less.  Especially in the first three books there were times when I had to just put the book down and cry (usually with joy) for a couple of minutes or take a walk or something, even on a second and third reading.  In this one I felt like there were some incredibly big moments for several characters (and Roshar and the Cosmere as a whole!) but they didn't hit me right in the feels quite so much.  It could just be that I was trying to devour the book too quickly though!

Agree.  I've been thinking about this a lot: "why did the end of WaT not feel BIGGER?"  I think maybe I feel like I was excluded from the thoughts of the main character too much, at least, more than I'd come to expect from the previous novels.  Dalinar's big ending?  Not enough from inside Dalinar's head.  Much of the action is described from outside, and even when we are in his head, we just don't seem to get very much.  Same with Kaladin, and very much so with Szeth.  Szeth came the farthest - by far - in his arc in this book, and the last few chapters just felt... insufficiently personal, I guess.

Of all the main arcs, Shallan and Renarin/Rlain felt the most emotionally fully-fleshed out to me.

[Starthief]

On 1/16/2025 at 11:34 AM, AquaRegia said:

I think maybe I feel like I was excluded from the thoughts of the main character too much, at least, more than I'd come to expect from the previous novels.

That's a good point.   Szeth's definitely felt like it should have been more personal.

I really liked Adolin's part in the story, and thought it was very well told.  The moment when he reclaimed his Plate, and when Maya showed up with the other deadeyes, were a couple of the bigger moments that really worked for me.

When Wit was killed I was almost numb to it, but I did kind of guess he'd somehow managed to pull one over on Odium.

[Quick Ben he/him]

On 1/10/2025 at 6:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

Look, we all have seen it. Everyone from youtube to goodreads to twitter to even here has been saying Wind and Truth is bad, or at least not as good as the previous four books in the series. And most of their arguments are easily dismissed, but you can see where they're coming from.

 

I'm not sure how you can say this.
If you thought this book was just as good as the other 4 books, good for you, that's your opinion.
But everyone comes to there own conclusions, their own opinions on the story being told, and when people don't like the story then that's their opinion and they are entitled to it.
So to say their reasons for disliking the book are easily dismissed is a bit much. 
Would you like if someone said your reasons for something were easily dismissed ?

On 1/10/2025 at 6:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

"Bad pacing"? This book is a literal countdown to destruction where some people are having a nice walk in the countryside with occasional fights, some people are fighting an all-out war against a suicidally aggressive enemy, and some people are having a completely hallucinatory experience. 

 

A countdown has nothing to do with pacing.
This book is 1300 or so pages long, and could of been condensed into a 350 - 500 page book.
Not only is pacing an issue but also filler and fluff.

On 1/10/2025 at 6:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

"I don't like the ending"? This is the Empire Strikes Back, of course it doesn't have a happy ending with roses and flowers. And anyone who thinks Dalinar's death was in any way anticlimactic or lame or not true to his character really needs to rethink life. 

I don't think anyone expected the ending to be happy with roses and flowers. But the ending was lacking, in many areas in my opinion.
From the new "unoathed" to Gavinor being 20 years older, Dalinar reasoning for giving up Honour, Kaladin sacrificing himself for the oathpact thats no longer required. 

On 1/10/2025 at 6:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

But I keep seeing "this is woke" or "the lgbt scenes were shoehorned in" and...I don't get it?? Like sure, the pacing isn't like a standard novel. Shallan is annoying, as she was written to be. Some of the prose is jarring, like when Maya called Adolin a slut, even if the Alethi would naturally have words for that. And the ending isn't nearly as warm and fuzzy as some people wanted. But the point of the scene with Adolin and the transgender-paperwork-filing soldier was Adolin dealing with an unusual person, not some kind of social message. And sure Renarin and Rlain's romance was a little drawn-out and I wanted to get back to the more dangerous and actiony chapters, but what else were they doing in the Spiritual Realm? Of course they'd have a heart-to-heart, that's what the place is for. And I've seen a dozen posts or more, especially on Reddit and twitter, about how the whole "trans radiant" thing is so woke and I just don't get it???? It's literally the opposite, my one gripe with Brandon is how right-wing he is about trans people. Like radiants have mental illnesses, that's how the magic gets into their souls. And Brandon said that the healing that does gender affirmation on trans people would also work on people who are mentally ill and people who are even hypnotized into thinking of themselves in a different way. Like to Brandon, trans people aren't any different from people who are mentally ill. Or even people who are hypnotized. I get that of course if a woman who is hypnotized into thinking she's a man is going to have her body turn male from being a radiant, of course I as a trans man would also have my body change, but it's still gross to think of us being treated the same. And I love the fantasy of becoming radiant and finding that I'm finally physically who I am spiritually, but I don't like how that's no different from someone who got hypnotized. So how is this "woke"??? How????? I don't get it?????????? Do people really see any trans character, no matter how they're treated, and freak out????????????????

I did find the LGBT scenes etc to be shoehorned in, and i would say the same with the trans element. Being perfectly honest, i found as the series progressed from book 1 to 5, that there was an element of forced inclusion
That they were just there for the appeasement of a minority of readers, while not making any contribution to the actual story.

In the above paragraph we question why a trans person is treated the same as someone with a mental illness. The majority of the characters have a mental disorder rather than an illness which is why they are treated the same.

On 1/10/2025 at 6:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

Look, we all have seen it. Everyone from youtube to goodreads to twitter to even here has been saying Wind and Truth is bad, or at least not as good as the previous four books in the series. And most of their arguments are easily dismissed, but you can see where they're coming from.

 

I'm not sure how you can say this.
If you thought this book was just as good as the other 4 books, good for you, that's your opinion.
But everyone comes to there own conclusions, their own opinions on the story being told, and when people don't like the story then that's their opinion and they are entitled to it.
So to say their reasons for disliking the book are easily dismissed is a bit much. 
Would you like if someone said your reasons for something were easily dismissed ?

On 1/10/2025 at 6:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

"Bad pacing"? This book is a literal countdown to destruction where some people are having a nice walk in the countryside with occasional fights, some people are fighting an all-out war against a suicidally aggressive enemy, and some people are having a completely hallucinatory experience. 

 

A countdown has nothing to do with pacing.
This book is 1300 or so pages long, and could of been condensed into a 350 - 500 page book.
Not only is pacing an issue but also filler and fluff.

On 1/10/2025 at 6:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

"I don't like the ending"? This is the Empire Strikes Back, of course it doesn't have a happy ending with roses and flowers. And anyone who thinks Dalinar's death was in any way anticlimactic or lame or not true to his character really needs to rethink life. 

I don't think anyone expected the ending to be happy with roses and flowers. But the ending was lacking, in many areas in my opinion.
From the new "unoathed" to Gavinor being 20 years older, Dalinar reasoning for giving up Honour, Kaladin sacrificing himself for the oathpact thats no longer required. 

On 1/10/2025 at 6:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

But I keep seeing "this is woke" or "the lgbt scenes were shoehorned in" and...I don't get it?? Like sure, the pacing isn't like a standard novel. Shallan is annoying, as she was written to be. Some of the prose is jarring, like when Maya called Adolin a slut, even if the Alethi would naturally have words for that. And the ending isn't nearly as warm and fuzzy as some people wanted. But the point of the scene with Adolin and the transgender-paperwork-filing soldier was Adolin dealing with an unusual person, not some kind of social message. And sure Renarin and Rlain's romance was a little drawn-out and I wanted to get back to the more dangerous and actiony chapters, but what else were they doing in the Spiritual Realm? Of course they'd have a heart-to-heart, that's what the place is for. And I've seen a dozen posts or more, especially on Reddit and twitter, about how the whole "trans radiant" thing is so woke and I just don't get it???? It's literally the opposite, my one gripe with Brandon is how right-wing he is about trans people. Like radiants have mental illnesses, that's how the magic gets into their souls. And Brandon said that the healing that does gender affirmation on trans people would also work on people who are mentally ill and people who are even hypnotized into thinking of themselves in a different way. Like to Brandon, trans people aren't any different from people who are mentally ill. Or even people who are hypnotized. I get that of course if a woman who is hypnotized into thinking she's a man is going to have her body turn male from being a radiant, of course I as a trans man would also have my body change, but it's still gross to think of us being treated the same. And I love the fantasy of becoming radiant and finding that I'm finally physically who I am spiritually, but I don't like how that's no different from someone who got hypnotized. So how is this "woke"??? How????? I don't get it?????????? Do people really see any trans character, no matter how they're treated, and freak out????????????????

I did find the LGBT scenes etc to be shoehorned in, and i would say the same with the trans element. Being perfectly honest, i found as the series progressed from book 1 to 5, that there was an element of forced inclusion
That they were just there for the appeasement of a minority of readers, while not making any contribution to the actual story.

In the above paragraph we question why a trans person is treated the same as someone with a mental illness. The majority of the characters have a mental disorder rather than an illness which is why they are treated the same.

[Treamayne]

31 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

31 minutes ago, Quick Ben said:

And most of their arguments are easily dismissed, but you can see where they're coming from.

I'm not sure how you can say this.
If you thought this book was just as good as the other 4 books, good for you, that's your opinion.
But everyone comes to there own conclusions, their own opinions on the story being told, and when people don't like the story then that's their opinion and they are entitled to it.
So to say their reasons for disliking the book are easily dismissed is a bit much. 
Would you like if someone said your reasons for something were easily dismissed ?

I don't know if it matter at all, but I read "easily dismissed" to mean "this opinion is unlikely to apply to me and my reading" rather than "this opinion does not matter."

When it doubt, please consider verifying the intended meaning rather than assuming malicious intent. Also Hanlon's Razor and Poe's Law may apply (in their various forms). 

 

 

[Kfish]

Shallan didn't suck. Her plot just didn't matter.

[RainStorm]

On 1/21/2025 at 5:44 PM, Quick Ben said:

A countdown has nothing to do with pacing.
This book is 1300 or so pages long, and could of been condensed into a 350 - 500 page book.
Not only is pacing an issue but also filler and fluff.

I'm really surprised that you would say this book is full of filler and fluff. I would say it has the least filler and fluff of the five books. That's why I love it so much: it's action-packed. TWoK and Oathbringer have way more filler and fluff. But I guess it depends on what you consider to be filler and fluff. Sure, the book could have been cut down but, with so many different storylines happening at the same time, each of them would have felt rushed if the page count had been significantly reduced.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 1/16/2025 at 6:34 PM, AquaRegia said:

Agree.  I've been thinking about this a lot: "why did the end of WaT not feel BIGGER?"  I think maybe I feel like I was excluded from the thoughts of the main character too much, at least, more than I'd come to expect from the previous novels.  Dalinar's big ending?  Not enough from inside Dalinar's head.  Much of the action is described from outside, and even when we are in his head, we just don't seem to get very much.

I am afraid I have to point out that we got viewpoints even from Tanavast.

And exactly here is the source of the issue. Wind and Truth is full of gods acting directly, talking to each other and to the protagonists.  Getting readers to identify with a god is much harder.

14 hours ago, Kfish said:

Shallan didn't suck. Her plot just didn't matter.

Yes. Just as the Renarin and Rlain story line. Even Sigzil's battle did not really matter.

I suppose Shallan's plot line had to be there so that it became impossible for the Ghostbloods and the Knights Radiant to make peace. But for now that does not matter.

[Leuthie]

I enjoyed reading Wind and Truth. I liked the ending and where the world is going into the break. The mysteries answered were answered well. The mysteries left are intriguing. 

That said, this was the worst prose BS has written. Everything was bland. I've said it in previous posts: you can see the outline. His outlines tend to expand as he writes and rarely contract. The rigid structure of SA probably left him with way too much to accomplish in one book and no room to really breath and hide the outline.

But the biggest problem to me was the loss of voice for nearly every character. Combine reaching the end of their character arcs with having most internal monologue and external conversation dedicated to infodumps, Brandon didn't have much room for character voice. Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar never got angry or worried the entire story, or at least never showed it. They were always thoughtful and introspective. Bland. Sigzil could have been Kaladin or <Random Bridge 4 #7>. Venli was once a scholar and is back to being a scholar, with scholarly thoughts that were similar to all of the other thoughtful, introspective characters. Renarin and Rlain were two sides to the same coin and both sounded like everyone else that was thoughtful and introspective.

Also, 1/4 of the book took place in the Spiritual Realm where nothing actually interesting happened on screen. It was a vehicle for flashbacks. There was no room for a truly terrifying nightmare scene or a euphoric side quest or anything that really brought wonder to the new Realm. The Cognitive Realm is amazing. The Spiritual Realm is bland.

Oh, and a very large portion of the work the characters did was erased in the end. But that's just a consequence of failure. Everyone failed in some way. That was the point and actually an interesting. But to really hit, it needed to be told less linearly. With less visible outline.

But these are all just nitpicks. Things I wish were improved. Still liked the story and enjoyed reading it. 

Edited January 23, 2025 by Leuthie

[Guest Ψιτιsτηε Βεsτ]

39 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

I enjoyed reading Wind and Truth. I liked the ending and where the world is going into the break. The mysteries answered were answered well. The mysteries left are intriguing. 

That said, this was the worst prose BS has written. Everything was bland. I've said it in previous posts: you can see the outline. His outlines tend to expand as he writes and rarely contract. The rigid structure of SA probably left him with way too much to accomplish in one book and no room to really breath and hide the outline.

But the biggest problem to me was the loss of voice for nearly every character. Combine reaching the end of their character arcs with having most internal monologue and external conversation dedicated to infodumps, Brandon didn't have much room for character voice. Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar never got angry or worried the entire story, or at least never showed it. They were always thoughtful and introspective. Bland. Sigzil could have been Kaladin or <Random Bridge 4 #7>. Venli was once a scholar and is back to being a scholar, with scholarly thoughts that were similar to all of the other thoughtful, introspective characters. Renarin and Rlain were two sides to the same coin and both sounded like everyone else that was thoughtful and introspective.

Also, 1/4 of the book took place in the Spiritual Realm where nothing actually interesting happened on screen. It was a vehicle for flashbacks. There was no room for a truly terrifying nightmare scene or a euphoric side quest or anything that really brought wonder to the new Realm. The Cognitive Realm is amazing. The Spiritual Realm is bland.

Oh, and a very large portion of the work the characters did was erased in the end. But that's just a consequence of failure. Everyone failed in some way. That was the point and actually an interesting. But to really hit, it needed to be told less linearly. With less visible outline.

But these are all just nitpicks. Things I wish were improved. Still liked the story and enjoyed reading it. 

I have to agree with you on the prose. I lot of stuff just seemed like an outline that was never fully filled in. It was a little bland.

[MagicMaggot]

3 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar never got angry or worried the entire story, or at least never showed it. They were always thoughtful and introspective. Bland.

I think those 3 were the bigger problem in that regard, because they were so very obviously meant to be over their character arcs. All three got the usual challenges thrown at them, that would have gotten quite the reaction out of them before, but having grown so very wise and stable over the last year/week or so, they only noticed that they had moved beyond that, and didn't really care anymore. And while that might have worked for one of them, spending a lot of pages on telling us the same thing about all of them probably wasn't the most gripping experience. You could feel the heavy hand of the author that wanted to have a drawn-out ceremony to graduate them from protagonist status, before the second season rolls around. 

I get why that happened, and it was obvious enough to me that I basically made my own peace with it during the first days of the story, and moved on to focussing on all the cool character and plot stuff that was being set up for the future. But it was certainly a big part of what made this book feel like so much less of a whole story instead of the middle-of-the-series setup it is. I did enjoy it, but... well, that's a lot of pages of setup and celebration of finished characters...

Edited January 23, 2025 by MagicMaggot

[Leuthie]

4 minutes ago, MagicMaggot said:

I think those 3 were the bigger problem in that regard, because they were so very obviously meant to be over their character arcs.

I didn't think about that. Yeah, they were all done developing. 4 Luke Skywalkers.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 1/10/2025 at 1:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

"Bad pacing"? This book is a literal countdown to destruction where some people are having a nice walk in the countryside with occasional fights, some people are fighting an all-out war against a suicidally aggressive enemy, and some people are having a completely hallucinatory experience. 

The countdown was good and bad imo. Good in that it lead a progression to a serious endpoint buidling up tension, and gave you a tangible sense of how close you were to the "end" from the character's pov, but also bad in (what others have also said) about jumping between various extremes of different viewpoints. I know Brandon has always done that, but in WaT, it was more jarring than I'm used to. I assumed that was on purpose, as the end of the world (and the Cosmere at large) was at stake. I didn't love it, but I felt the intentionality of it.

On 1/10/2025 at 1:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

"Shallan sucks"? She's a cruel, narcissistic, melodramatic, vindictive bully whose definition of accountability for herself is "forgiving and accepting myself". She's liked only by Hoid, who she hugged once, and by Adolin, who managed to offend every single woman in the warcamps despite being the heir to Kholinar which you might think would make girls pretty tolerant of him, and who has such a hard time saying "no" to women that when he had to tell a girl she couldn't fight on the front lines, he all but adopted her.

If I hadn't been on my own mental health journey over the last several years, I wouldn't understand at all how you could describe Shallan this way, but I definitely do. I used to LOATH Shallan. I thought she didn't make any sense..that she was whiney and erratic..self-centered and always in fight or flight. All of those things were/are true to some extent, but there are also reasons for them, legitimate mental health reasons that make SO much more sense to me now, and that's because I've come to understand (much better) my own mental unhealth ,and continuing recovery. Shallan knows that she's been a terrible person, she also knows (now) that it wasn't her fault at the time..she was a child who didn't want to die, and later, didn't want her brothers to die (and she made very serious decision with the mind she had at the time, a mind of a traumatized child). She is working hard to make amends for herself and for others. But to say that nobody but Hoid and Adolin like her? That's axiomatically untrue. Kaladin loves Shallan. Navani and Dalinar love Shallan. The Unseen Court adore Shallan. Mraize even, clearly really liked Shallan. Syl likes Shallan. Pattern and Testament love Shallan. Renarin clearly loves Shallan, despite the problems they both have. Shallan's mother, whom she sent off to be tortured (unknowingly obviously) loves Shallan and is proud of her. I would argue that most main characters in Urithiru like and/or love Shallan and that they've demonstrated or outright said so in the books by RoW and WaT.

On 1/10/2025 at 1:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

"Modern prose"? This book is a translation into English. Complain about the puns if you will, and nobody did that before, but if you think the slang and words they're using are too "modern", look at the Pompei graffiti and tell me if you think that, translated to english and rephrased in modern syntax, they wouldn't sound insanely modern. 

I get why people don't like this, but I really do. The ancient spren would have had a noticeably different way of speaking, that nobody but the Stormfather and Syl (once she regained most of her memory) would even know about. That Brandon chose for that to sound more "mordern" was jarring for folks, but I don't really see why it's such a big deal. The majority of people who crap on Brandon's work will invariably talk about how much his prose sucks, and how great GRR Martin and Pat Rothfuss are. I will admit that both of those authors have elevated prose in excess, but how has that worked out for their fans in the last decade as far as novels go? I'm fine with whatever evolution Brandon takes. If he feels that he deviated too far with WaT, then he'll adjust going forward. If not, he wont. Folks can, and will, complain for as long as Sanderson writes, but if you still don't like his writing after dozens of books, why would you keep reading his work?

 

On 1/10/2025 at 1:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

"I don't like the ending"? This is the Empire Strikes Back, of course it doesn't have a happy ending with roses and flowers. And anyone who thinks Dalinar's death was in any way anticlimactic or lame or not true to his character really needs to rethink life. 

Brandon (more often than I would like) puts information out there for readers to glean, outside of the lines. You're meant to sit back and ask, "what does all this mean? where will this inevitably lead? etc" and for a lot of people, that's not what they want. I get that, but Brandon is going to do what he wants to do, and he's already proven that he can publish books on his own through kickstarter and the like if Tor or others don't want to publish him. He can, and will, do whatever he wants in that regard. So, I'm just gonna roll with it myself.

 

On 1/10/2025 at 1:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

But I keep seeing "this is woke" or "the lgbt scenes were shoehorned in" and...I don't get it??

Straight people who never spend time with anyone who isn't (if if they do, they don't listen) and so everything they read, Brandon or otherwise, is through a cis/het lense that everyone is how they perceive them. When they do read really obvious hints, they'll go something like "Huh, that's weird, anyway moving on" and promptly forget until all of the sudden out of nowhere Renarin is gay?!?! Rushu is non-binary?!?! The king of that Reishi isle is trans?!?! Folks who don't see that LGBTQIA+ people live, love, laugh, cry, grieve, have joy and peace the same as them..won't notice normal relationship stuff as it develops, because whether they understand it consciously or not, they don't see those folks as "normal," meaning, they can't live their life just like me because they are so different from me. That was how I thought and felt and acted growing up, and those were topics of conversations many many times. At this point, explaining it to folks who don't yet understand, isn't really helpful, in so much as they need to look for it, and see for themselves, or it won't happen. Which is sad, and it can be difficult for those folks, but it's definitely not impossible. Far from it.
Also, as others have said, anyone using "woke" as a derogatory term, is so far from the point that it's not worth it to engage in the first place. It's just a filler criticism for myriad other complaints that the people using it don't want to (or can't) articulate. I would imagine you're already aware of this, but if by some chance you weren't, there it is.

On 1/10/2025 at 1:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

Some of the prose is jarring, like when Maya called Adolin a slut,

This was one of the biggest laughs for me in the entire book. Adolin was pretty slutty, and relationship dumb, and self-aware dumb. In a lot of ways, he and Shallan were perfect for each other because they were both finding out that they had been lying to themselves about who they thought they were and what they wanted out of life. Maya was on the nose, and personally, I wouldn't change that line. But, to each their own.

On 1/10/2025 at 1:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

And the ending isn't nearly as warm and fuzzy as some people wanted.

I honestly don't know what people who are complaining loudly about the ending, actually wanted. Between the death rattles, the other foreshadowing, and what the characters themselves have been saying..not to mention Taravangian ascending (who I can't fully describe my feelings about without violating the rules of this site) the ending was basically a best case scenario. But again, I don't really relate with folks who wanted it to "be better" than it was. The book literally could have ended with a sizable chunck of Roshar destroyed and everyone scrambling to climb out of the stoneage at warp speed, or worse for that matter. Overall, it sets up a lot of possibilities for the back 5, and I really wish we were getting to them sooner than later. 

 

On 1/10/2025 at 1:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

But the point of the scene with Adolin and the transgender-paperwork-filing soldier was Adolin dealing with an unusual person, not some kind of social message.

Yeah, it's been mentioned several times, by several characters that the Azish have paperwork for everything. If folks think that official gender reassignment doesn't full under "everything," then I guess they can go check a dictionary or something. I am also, almost positive that this specific subject has come up before, and this was just the first time it played out "on screen." But as I said above, folks who aren't going to notice, aren't going to notice (much less remember) until it is completely spelled out for them.

On 1/10/2025 at 1:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

And sure Renarin and Rlain's romance was a little drawn-out and I wanted to get back to the more dangerous and actiony chapters, but what else were they doing in the Spiritual Realm? Of course they'd have a heart-to-heart, that's what the place is for. And I've seen a dozen posts or more, especially on Reddit and twitter, about how the whole "trans radiant" thing is so woke and I just don't get it????

They were? I felt like they were abbreviated and shorter than the two characters deserved. This is one of the many places were I took issue with WaT, and feel that it was mostly because Brandon very much ran out of space. Tor had to use different paper to even bind this book. Honestly, I feel like a lot of the issue in WaT could be fixed with a part 2 that's another 300k+ words, but that wasn't ever going to happen. Again, if folks think that trans folks can't exist in fantasy when they already exist in reality..I don't know how to help them with that, because that's super weird.

 

On 1/10/2025 at 1:12 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

It's literally the opposite, my one gripe with Brandon is how right-wing he is about trans people. Like radiants have mental illnesses, that's how the magic gets into their souls. And Brandon said that the healing that does gender affirmation on trans people would also work on people who are mentally ill and people who are even hypnotized into thinking of themselves in a different way. Like to Brandon, trans people aren't any different from people who are mentally ill. Or even people who are hypnotized. I get that of course if a woman who is hypnotized into thinking she's a man is going to have her body turn male from being a radiant, of course I as a trans man would also have my body change, but it's still gross to think of us being treated the same. And I love the fantasy of becoming radiant and finding that I'm finally physically who I am spiritually, but I don't like how that's no different from someone who got hypnotized. So how is this "woke"??? How????? I don't get it?????????? Do people really see any trans character, no matter how they're treated, and freak out????????????????

I had always thought that what Brandon was trying to express with that (based on other comments that are very affirming of trans folks specifically, and all minority groups really) is that the Identity that one places on their soul, just is the default, for whatever reason, even non-legitimate ones. I would consider hypnosis, or any other form of mind-control to be a non-legitimate (in moral validity) way to cheat someone out of who they are. Hemalurgy literally steals pieces of people's souls, and I had always felt that his comments on being hypnotized into altering one's spiritweb and/or visible form, was explaining the violation and extreme stakes involved with doing such a thing. For intance, neither Hoid nor Taravangain could get away with doing that to someone (because of the various rules they are bound by) because there is no way that either of them could consider that to be anything other than a grave harm to a person, which they aren't allowed to do. 

Also, I wouldn't say that mental illness is "how the magic gets in." Radiant spren look for folks who fit into whatever order, who have cracks in their soul. That's not just mental illness, but trauma of any sort. And honestly, everyone has trauma of one kind or another, and I think that's the point. Everyone needs healing and help, not just people someone might think needs it. Anyone can be Radiant, but most people won't be.

That said, you have a very valid point. It does leave room for vagueness, and there shouldn't be anything vague when it comes to this, because that can and does lead to harmful interpretations. I hope that there isn't any intention towards that, consciously or unconsciously, because that would be a serious wrong. I also hope that Brandon will speak more to the specificity of this process going forward, both in his work and in public discussions. As to the people griping that trans people existing is "woke," all they are saying is "I don't want to be reminded that people who aren't like me exist, much less be the heros. I want to identify with all the heros, and I can't do that if all of the characters aren't cis/het and look like me." That's pretty much the long and the short of it.

 

On 1/10/2025 at 2:24 AM, 1000CremlingsInATrenchcoat said:

I don't think Shallan sucked in this one at all, but pointing out the lead female role "sucks" is an annoyingly common reprisal that I suggest learning to tune out. More times than not, on the internet, that's not a critique coming from an empathetic or honest position. Female leads are a lightning rod for dingdongs to launch their opinions at. I doesn't matter how you write them.

Yuuup.

On 1/10/2025 at 2:24 AM, 1000CremlingsInATrenchcoat said:

I found Syl saying "for real" instead of "sincerely" or "in earnest" to be the most jarring linguistic choice. That and some of the therapy language was a little too textbooky.

I don't remember this scene, so I must not have noticed it. The therapy language for me, seemed like a mix of Kaladin trying to grasp this task that Wit gave some context to (but far less than would be helpful) and Sanderson trying to be accurate for readers as to not inadvertently cause harm. But, that also could just be my subjective opinion and not based in fact at all, idk?

 

On 1/10/2025 at 2:24 AM, 1000CremlingsInATrenchcoat said:

I would say, in general, just dismiss out of hand anyone who uses "woke" derogatorily. There is a much too popular subset of media who feed on this anger and who are not arguing from a sincere place because as soon as they see anything that isn't just a bunch of straight cis dudes, they just go off the handle. They're programmed by social media, and that same machine wants to feed on you too, which is why it's pushing all this ignorant nonsense your direction. You gotta reject the algorithm and get away from those bullies and bigots.

Again, yuuup.

On 1/10/2025 at 2:48 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

Exactly!! She’s such a good character!! Sure she’s a bad person, but so many of the best characters are. I love Cersei as a character too even if she’s literally evil

I really don't know how you can compare Shallan and Cersei. Cersei is entirely self-aware and doesn't care that she does whatever she wants, whenever she wants, to whoever she wants..no matter how much pain, violence, and/or murder is involved. Not only that, but she is Petty with a capital P. She'll punish and/or kill someone just because she's upset with them, whether or not her hurt feelings are even legitimate or not. Shallan has done a lot of bad things, but a lot of them have been without her full knowledge. Her coming to grips with what she's done and facing the truth of it, is one of the pillars of her character development. Cersei always knew what she was doing, and gave zero bananas about it. They really couldn't be more different imo.

On 1/10/2025 at 2:48 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

We SOOO need more trans rep in the main cast. I was so sad when I read that Lift wasn’t trans, and we really need more trans stories in fiction. I just hope Brandon makes it clear that trans people aren’t ever mentally ill and we’re different. I hope he makes a way to see male and female and nonbinary spiritwebs so trans characters can be different from hypnotized people and having a main trans character would be such a good way to do that.

While Lift isn't trans, her body dysmorphia is still a real issue that a lot of folks who aren't trans deal with as well. I honestly thought it was a good addition to the narrative. I do agree that trans folks should be found more in the foreground, mid, and background of the Cosmere, because they exist everywhere in the world, and shouldn't be hidden or left out in series that cover dozens of worlds across a galaxy.

 

On 1/11/2025 at 1:06 AM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

Can't a guy want to type more than one question mark???? <-- like right there

You certainly can. In text, it can come off as something similar to typing in all caps, or give a lot more emotion to a sentence than perhaps you were intending. I personally think there are more effective ways to communicate that, besides quoting it and leaving a question that could be misinterpreted as passive aggressive, but again, text is a very limited medium than can be taken in all sorts of ways that the author didn't think about and/or intend at the time.

On 1/11/2025 at 2:51 AM, therunner said:

In spirit of your nickname, that is not true.

If Kaladin went to Shinovar alone, he would have died at the Elsecaller trial, because he simply couldn't get himself back. He'd also likely fail at the Stoneward temple, because Adhesion nor Reverse Lashing would let him break the stone like Division did for Szeth.

If he beelined to Bondsmith temple, Ishar would kill him, Nale already showed that Kaladin simply cannot match Heralds once they get serious.

So no, Kaladin couldn't solve the Shinovar problem himself, and Szeth was in fact crucial (as was Nightblood).

I also feel that it was critical for Szeth and Kaladin to go to Shinovar together. Between the Wind and Wit, it was clear that there was a whole different plan for Kaladin that he was unaware of, and also, that Szeth most certainly needed outside help, which to some extent, he accepted to his benefit. I would have prefered that Szeth be aware of Kaladin becoming a Herald, but again, that was a deliberate choice Brandon made, so I'll just live with it.

On 1/11/2025 at 9:26 AM, Nitpicking said:

If Kaladin went alone, the story would have been written differently. He wouldn't have been nearly as bumbling as he was here, for one thing.

I don't understand what you mean by Kaladin being bumbling?

On 1/16/2025 at 12:01 PM, Starthief said:

I loved the format of this story, with the 10-day countdown helping to provide tension -- like it did in The Ring or Space Battleship Yamato.

I enjoyed the format, but the execution (several times for me) felt far more jarring than even the previous books. Again, the more I've dwelt on it over the last several weeks, the more convinced I am that Brandon ran into the wall of "End of first half of SA" and didn't have room for more. Folks have commented about him running out of time..when he has had books 1-5 outlined for more than a decade, and wrote 5 whole novels in his spare time because it helped his brain. I don't think time is as much of an issue for Brandon, as word limits are.

 

On 1/16/2025 at 12:01 PM, Starthief said:

My only complaint about Shallan has more to do with how very indirect the Ghostblood plot has seemed to the struggle against Odium. The Ghostbloods' motives and methods on Roshar have seemed very weird and it makes me wonder about Kelsier's sanity.  But I guess we'll see more about that in the next Mistborn books.  I also expect Shallan is going to end up as a Worldhopper, and may end up involved in other Shards' efforts against Retribution in the future?  It's exciting to contemplate.

I have never gotten the impression that the Ghostbloods are struggling against Odium. Their stated goal (which presumably is Kelsier's) is to package and transport investiture off of Roshar to the rest of the Cosmere. Also, several times in RoW and WaT, it's stated that Mraize and Iyatil "have their own plans" which heavily implies that they've been lying to Kelsier about what they actually were doing on Roshar, and I am also pretty sure that at one point, Kelsier made a comment about how he suspected that they (Iyatil and Mraize) were kind of doing their own thing...which would make sense as Iyatil implied that Kelsier had already told her no to whatever her plans were. So I don't know how much is Kelsier and how much was Iyatil and Mraize?

On 1/16/2025 at 12:01 PM, Starthief said:

My main disappointment with Wind and Truth, if it's even really disappointment, was that the raw emotional impact of the "big hero moments," major setbacks and huge revelations seemed a lot less.  Especially in the first three books there were times when I had to just put the book down and cry (usually with joy) for a couple of minutes or take a walk or something, even on a second and third reading.  In this one I felt like there were some incredibly big moments for several characters (and Roshar and the Cosmere as a whole!) but they didn't hit me right in the feels quite so much.  It could just be that I was trying to devour the book too quickly though!

For me, I couldn't have felt bigger emotional impacts. I ugly cried several times in WaT and laughed out loud a lot more than that. I greatly enjoyed it. I'm not sure why others didn't feel it as much as I did, but since I don't know, I'll leave it at that.

[Treamayne]

16 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I am also, almost positive that this specific subject has come up before, and this was just the first time it played out "on screen."

OB Ch 35: 
 

Spoiler

[Sigzil said] “And then there’s the matter of Drehy…”

“What matter?”

“Well, he’s been courting a man, you see…”

Kaladin threw on his coat, chuckling. “I did know about that one. You only now noticed?”

Sigzil nodded.

“It’s Dru he’s been seeing, still? From the district quartermaster’s offices?”

“Yes, sir.” Sigzil looked down. “Sir, I … Well, it’s just that…”

“Yes?”

“Sir, Drehy hasn’t filled out the proper forms,” Sigzil said. “If he wants to court another man, he needs to apply for social reassignment, right?”

Kaladin rolled his eyes. So, there were no forms for that in Alethkar.

Sigzil couldn’t say he was surprised, as the Alethi didn’t have proper procedures for anything. “Then how do you apply for social reassignment?”

“We don’t.” Kaladin frowned.

 

[AquaRegia he/him]

2 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Straight people who never spend time with anyone who isn't (if if they do, they don't listen) and so everything they read, Brandon or otherwise, is through a cis/het lense that everyone is how they perceive them. When they do read really obvious hints, they'll go something like "Huh, that's weird, anyway moving on" and promptly forget until all of the sudden out of nowhere Renarin is gay?!?! Rushu is non-binary?!?! The king of that Reishi isle is trans?!?! Folks who don't see that LGBTQIA+ people live, love, laugh, cry, grieve, have joy and peace the same as them..won't notice normal relationship stuff as it develops, because whether they understand it consciously or not, they don't see those folks as "normal," meaning, they can't live their life just like me because they are so different from me.

I just want to thank you for your well-thought, well-written post.  I wish I could give it more than one like.

I'm straight, but STORMS am I tired of hearing complaints about "woke" this and "shoehorned" that and "shoving it in our faces" the other.  We swim, every minute of every day, in cis/het romance and sexuality... but include the tiniest smattering of queerness in our entertainment and civilization as we know it is collapsing?  Among the many things Brandon is trying to teach us: grow up and just let people be themselves for a change.

On 1/21/2025 at 11:44 AM, Quick Ben said:

I did find the LGBT scenes etc to be shoehorned in, and i would say the same with the trans element. Being perfectly honest, i found as the series progressed from book 1 to 5, that there was an element of forced inclusion
That they were just there for the appeasement of a minority of readers, while not making any contribution to the actual story.

Interesting.  What contributions would you say Rock's marriage, or Sebarial's girlfriend, made to the actual story?

17 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid I have to point out that we got viewpoints even from Tanavast.

Yes, but my point was that we got not enough viewpoint from Dalinar and Szeth, two of the most important characters for the whole 5-book arc, even as they were in the midst of making literally world-shattering decisions.  I agree with @Leuthie, @MagicMaggot and others who suggest that 1) their character arcs were basically already done, and that 2) there was too much ground to cover in this one book, such that "the outline" just didn't get fleshed out as well as it had in previous novels.  Both excellent points.  I got so used to riding around inside the main character's heads, seeing everything through their eyes and hearing every detail of their (tormented) thoughts, I felt shut out for much of WaT.

Edited January 24, 2025 by AquaRegia
more thoughts

[Soccorro]

On 1/10/2025 at 4:12 PM, Wind and Truth apolgist said:

And anyone who thinks Dalinar's death was in any way anticlimactic or lame or not true to his character really needs to rethink life. 

I spent last two weeks rethinking my entire life and finally came to conclusion: Dalinar’s death was anticlimactic and lame

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

12 hours ago, Soccorro said:

I spent last two weeks rethinking my entire life and finally came to conclusion: Dalinar’s death was anticlimactic and lame

Dalinar, who Connected with folks in the Beyond, multiple times, and also connected Kaladin to Tien...Dalinar who made Connections to a place that multiple Shards have said they don't know anything about (which begs the question, are they lying..is Harmony lying? Or is Dalinar just the baddest of the bad with Connection) and was still able to Connect with those he loved the most, even after the Stormfather was completely destroyed (which should have terminated all of his Bondsmithing abilities since he was not holding Honor at all, and yet he did) that person decided to sacrifice himself instead of being a god, giving Honor the gift of life, in all its complexity, something that hasn't happened to the power (I assume) since before the Shattering 10,000 years ago and thereby has most likely saved the Cosmere as a whole, in the long run...that guy decided to head on over to the Beyond and see what he could see, and is most likely capable of connecting back from the Beyond (imo), while keeping his grandson (nephew, but by Alethi law, grandson) alive by shielding him with his own body...I guess you could call that anticlimactic and lame. Well, you did, so you can, but it seems odd to me. 

What more could you want from Dalinar as a person (from his life and/or death?), not to mention, Dalinar gets to be dead and not dead at the same time, as there is a Spiritual Aspect with all of his memories running around, currently working for Retribution, who (if I'm not mistaken) isn't actually bound by the agreement that Dalinar and Odium made because that agreement was for Dalinar's soul, which Retribution lost. Yes, he's wanting The Blackthorn from the SR to replace Dalinar, and he may actually do that in time, and not the way dumb ol Taravangian wants, because that Dalinar doesn't actually have to serve Retribution. He agreed to serve, but I don't see that as an oath made, unless I'm misremembering how that interaction went.

Personally, I got everything I wanted from Dalinar in WaT (and then some), and I'm going to get more from him in the back 5, and maybe from more than one Dalinar. I don't mind if you think that's anticlimactic and lame, but I think it's weird to see it that way. But, to each there own.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Dalinar, who Connected with folks in the Beyond, multiple times, and also connected Kaladin to Tien

Small correction - Dalinar did not Connect to the Beyond, he Connected to the Spiritweb Corpse in the Spiritual Realm. 

Spoiler

Argent

Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free iInvestiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the Spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that Spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm.

<Edited for length and relevance>

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 5, 2017)

Brandon has not, and will not, answer about the Beyond and if/how people moving Beyond do or do not exist. He want's readers to make their own decisions on that based on their personal beliefs. 

[Leuthie]

11 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Small correction - Dalinar did not Connect to the Beyond, he Connected to the Spiritweb Corpse in the Spiritual Realm. 

If your picture is still on the ofrenda you can be Connected to and used to advance someone's agenda

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Small correction - Dalinar did not Connect to the Beyond, he Connected to the Spiritweb Corpse in the Spiritual Realm. 

One one level, that feels like semantics and not much of a difference at all. Then again, we're talking about Brandon, so clearly there is some be deal with the Beyond specifically that I'm sure we'll hear about in 2055ish. So yeah, that's a valid point, and I wasn't actually aware of the specific mechanics of how Dalinar had done the things he's done. That still doesn't really explain his connection to Nohadon and the conversations they had. Did Dalinar Connec to him instictively? Did Nohadon do something? Or was there some other factor(s) at play that we don't know about yet?

1 hour ago, Leuthie said:

If your picture is still on the ofrenda you can be Connected to and used to advance someone's agenda

My immediate thought was a movie title,

Stormlight Archives: The Ofrenda Agenda

I'll go now. 

[Treamayne]

10 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Then again, we're talking about Brandon, so clearly there is some be deal with the Beyond specifically that I'm sure we'll hear about in 2055ish.

No, there is not. WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

In Stormlight, Dalinar mentioned that <if he can die, he's no longer a god>, so to speak. And throughout the cosmere, gods died *inaudible*. Is there an omniscient, omnipotent, actual God in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Is there an omniscient, omnipotent God in the cosmere? Some people believe that there is. You guys laugh about this, but I don't mean it to be a laughing thing. There are certain questions I will not answer in the cosmere, specifically because it would too much undermine some of the characters' beliefs. And I want to treat characters respectfully. So whether there is life after you pass into the Beyond, and whether there is a God of gods, an omnipotent, as we would define "monotheistic God," are questions that I don't answer, and I let the characters deal with. Because if I answer that, then the character discussions about this are meaningless. Not really, but they kind of are. So there are a couple things I won't answer about the cosmere, because the characters don't have these answers.

<edited for length and relevance>

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

All mechanics dealing with the afterlife in the Cosmere will strictly deal with the three realms. He does not intend to ever answer anything about the Beyond to allow both characters and readers to draw their own conclusions. 

Edited January 24, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

4 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

No, there is not. WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

In Stormlight, Dalinar mentioned that <if he can die, he's no longer a god>, so to speak. And throughout the cosmere, gods died *inaudible*. Is there an omniscient, omnipotent, actual God in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Is there an omniscient, omnipotent God in the cosmere? Some people believe that there is. You guys laugh about this, but I don't mean it to be a laughing thing. There are certain questions I will not answer in the cosmere, specifically because it would too much undermine some of the characters' beliefs. And I want to treat characters respectfully. So whether there is life after you pass into the Beyond, and whether there is a God of gods, an omnipotent, as we would define "monotheistic God," are questions that I don't answer, and I let the characters deal with. Because if I answer that, then the character discussions about this are meaningless. Not really, but they kind of are. So there are a couple things I won't answer about the cosmere, because the characters don't have these answers.

<edited for length and relevance>

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

All mechanics dealing with the afterlife in the Cosmere will strictly deal with the three realms. He does not intend to ever answer anything about the Beyond to allow both characters and readers to draw their own conclusions. 

I get that, but also, a non-answer is sort of an answer as well. Also, as far as the mechanics of the Cosmere go, Brandon is sort of that role, much like Stan Lee represented himself in the Marvel universe at one point. I also tend towards there being something in the Beyond, beyond the Beyond, because it physically interacts with the Cosmere when people die, waiting until their investiture has waned (or Wayned..I am now wondering if Brandon was telling an awful pun this whole time). We've seen it over and over first hand, with invested folks who have died. Nobody really dies in the Cosmere, they just move. I believe Brandon when he says that he'll stay hands off about the Beyond, but I also believe that he won't be able to not reference it either directly or indirectly over the next few decades, because he's already done so. But, we are also talking about the philosophical side of the Cosmere at this point. It all is and isn't, because Brandon wants it to be that way. 

[Treamayne]

5 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

 I believe Brandon when he says that he'll stay hands off about the Beyond, but I also believe that he won't be able to not reference it either directly or indirectly over the next few decades, because he's already done so.

Agreed.

I expect it to get referenced - because character beliefs are part of the story. I just don't expect any mechanics to be based on one particular interpretation of how/why the Beyond intereacts with the Cosmere. 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Agreed.

I expect it to get referenced - because character beliefs are part of the story. I just don't expect any mechanics to be based on one particular interpretation of how/why the Beyond intereacts with the Cosmere. 

I mean, whatever the mechanics are, they do seem to be the same across the Cosmere. At least at this point from what we've seen, but I was would surprised if we ever saw any variation from anyone, no matter who they are or where they died. I expect that the Beyond is a universal constant in the Cosmere.

[AquaRegia he/him]

1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

waiting until their investiture has waned (or Wayned..I am now wondering if Brandon was telling an awful pun this whole time).

You seem to be a fluent native English speaker... I'm shocked you did not get the "wax and wane" pun immediately!

1 hour ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

That still doesn't really explain his connection to Nohadon and the conversations they had. Did Dalinar Connect to him instinctively? Did Nohadon do something?

My guess is that Nohadon did indeed "do something" - hid some stowaway aspect of himself, with memories, in Honor's visions somehow.  I agree Brandon is never going to part the curtain on the Beyond.  I'm confident there has never been, nor will there ever be, any communication or Connection which crosses the barrier between the Three Realms and the Beyond.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

20 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

You seem to be a fluent native English speaker... I'm shocked you did not get the "wax and wane" pun immediately!

I am a native English speaker, and I've thought about this, this afternoon, and I've decided that my brain forcibly ignored the pun. I am, in general, not a fan of puns 

 

21 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

I'm confident there has never been, nor will there ever be, any communication or Connection which crosses the barrier between the Three Realms and the Beyond.

I can't help but hope that this isn't true. It is almost certainly a moot point, and you're probably correct. That said, I still want something to happen there, it's just how I feel, and I'm pretty confident that's not going to change any time soon.