The third way

[BridgeBoi]

Happy New Year, y'all!

Thinking about the contest of champions, why didn't Dalinar, after ascending to honor just wait? I mean the type of contest was never specified. I'm fairly certain there's nothing compelling Dalinar to kill Gavilar. 

The alternative plan would be for Dalinar to move away from the contest. He doesn't attack Odium and doesn't kill Gavinor. Instead he waits for Gavinor to die of old age. Once Gavinor is dead, team radiant is in control of Alethkar.  From there, Dalinar can teach the shard of honor what true honor is. He could also go to the other shards and tell them that Odium's vessel has changed and Todium is extremely dangerous. This would result in a stalemate. In a thousand years, when Odium returned, Dalinar would have the true shard of honor, and exprienced radiants plus maybe help from other shards.

The two main objections to waiting are that by withdrawing Dalinar forfeits and that the shard wasn't ready. Waiting for the proper moment is a perfectly valid tactic in warfare.

Second, Which situation is better for the shard? having a mentor (or therapist ) who knows what true honor is or having a power-hungry monster to control you?

Ultimately, I understand why Dalinar made this choice from a storytelling perspective, but I think that its a pretty rash and inconcieved idea that opens up a lot of risk. 

[Letryx13]

13 minutes ago, BridgeBoi said:

Happy New Year, y'all!

Thinking about the contest of champions, why didn't Dalinar, after ascending to honor just wait? I mean the type of contest was never specified. I'm fairly certain there's nothing compelling Dalinar to kill Gavilar. 

The alternative plan would be for Dalinar to move away from the contest. He doesn't attack Odium and doesn't kill Gavinor. Instead he waits for Gavinor to die of old age. Once Gavinor is dead, team radiant is in control of Alethkar.  From there, Dalinar can teach the shard of honor what true honor is. He could also go to the other shards and tell them that Odium's vessel has changed and Todium is extremely dangerous. This would result in a stalemate. In a thousand years, when Odium returned, Dalinar would have the true shard of honor, and exprienced radiants plus maybe help from other shards.

The two main objections to waiting are that by withdrawing Dalinar forfeits and that the shard wasn't ready. Waiting for the proper moment is a perfectly valid tactic in warfare.

Second, Which situation is better for the shard? having a mentor (or therapist ) who knows what true honor is or having a power-hungry monster to control you?

Ultimately, I understand why Dalinar made this choice from a storytelling perspective, but I think that its a pretty rash and inconcieved idea that opens up a lot of risk. 

I had a similar thought, and wondered if something like drawing out the time of the contest might be something Taravangian might try to win. But the problem with Dalinar trying to get the other shards to help is that he had seen Tanavast trying to do that exact same thing before, and they didn't help. That would achieve nothing but delaying the problem. Again.

Dalinar is a first rate general, and if his son is a good Towers player, you can bet Dalinar is too. He almost certainly knew about the kind of situation that May and Adolin showed Yanagon.  That's what that entire scene was meant to show.  That sometimes the worst position to be in is the one with the most power.  Dalinar guessed, correctly, that Taravangian wouldn't be able to resist taking up Honor's power and that once he did, the other shards wouldn't ignore him anymore.

[BridgeBoi]

3 minutes ago, Letryx13 said:

I had a similar thought, and wondered if something like drawing out the time of the contest might be something Taravangian might try to win. But the problem with Dalinar trying to get the other shards to help is that he had seen Tanavast trying to do that exact same thing before, and they didn't help. That would achieve nothing but delaying the problem. Again.

Dalinar is a first rate general, and if his son is a good Towers player, you can bet Dalinar is too. He almost certainly knew about the kind of situation that May and Adolin showed Yanagon.  That's what that entire scene was meant to show.  That sometimes the worst position to be in is the one with the most power.  Dalinar guessed, correctly, that Taravangian wouldn't be able to resist taking up Honor's power and that once he did, the other shards wouldn't ignore him anymore.

I don't know if  Dalinar would do this but It's interesting. What Dalinar blackmailed the other shards? He has leverage. He is the one keeping the monster back. What if he contacted the other shards and said, look Odium is a massive problem. If you don't help me defeat him, I'm going to release him on the comerse? This would be simalar to waiting, seeing if the other shards would help and then if they didn't forcing them to help?

[Sedside she/her]

8 hours ago, BridgeBoi said:

The alternative plan would be for Dalinar to move away from the contest. He doesn't attack Odium and doesn't kill Gavinor. Instead he waits for Gavinor to die of old age. Once Gavinor is dead, team radiant is in control of Alethkar.  From there, Dalinar can teach the shard of honor what true honor is. He could also go to the other shards and tell them that Odium's vessel has changed and Todium is extremely dangerous. This would result in a stalemate. In a thousand years, when Odium returned, Dalinar would have the true shard of honor, and exprienced radiants plus maybe help from other shards.

Or a million other options. Dalinar creates a perpendicularity, pulls Gavinor in there and spends another 20 years with him in SR un-brainwashing him. Dalinar creates an SR copy of Urithiru for Gavinor to live in, like Taravangian did with Kharbranth. Dalinar goes to SR alone and spends several months there talking to other Shards and threatening them to give Honor to Odium. There is a whole Pandora's box of options after SR was introduced in this book and what T could do with it.

[Nitpicking]

22 minutes ago, Sedside said:

Or a million other options. Dalinar creates a perpendicularity, pulls Gavinor in there and spends another 20 years with him in SR un-brainwashing him. Dalinar creates an SR copy of Urithiru for Gavinor to live in, like Taravangian did with Kharbranth. Dalinar goes to SR alone and spends several months there talking to other Shards and threatening them to give Honor to Odium. There is a whole Pandora's box of options after SR was introduced in this book and what T could do with it.

Dalinar didn't know how to do any of that. I guess he could have done some of it after taking up Honor.

[Sedside she/her]

16 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

I guess he could have done some of it after taking up Honor.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about.

[alder24]

9 hours ago, BridgeBoi said:

Happy New Year, y'all!

Thinking about the contest of champions, why didn't Dalinar, after ascending to honor just wait? I mean the type of contest was never specified. I'm fairly certain there's nothing compelling Dalinar to kill Gavilar. 

The alternative plan would be for Dalinar to move away from the contest. He doesn't attack Odium and doesn't kill Gavinor. Instead he waits for Gavinor to die of old age. Once Gavinor is dead, team radiant is in control of Alethkar.  From there, Dalinar can teach the shard of honor what true honor is. He could also go to the other shards and tell them that Odium's vessel has changed and Todium is extremely dangerous. This would result in a stalemate. In a thousand years, when Odium returned, Dalinar would have the true shard of honor, and exprienced radiants plus maybe help from other shards.

The two main objections to waiting are that by withdrawing Dalinar forfeits and that the shard wasn't ready. Waiting for the proper moment is a perfectly valid tactic in warfare.

Second, Which situation is better for the shard? having a mentor (or therapist ) who knows what true honor is or having a power-hungry monster to control you?

Ultimately, I understand why Dalinar made this choice from a storytelling perspective, but I think that its a pretty rash and inconcieved idea that opens up a lot of risk. 

Because he didn't want Gavinor to die and he knew theContest was meaningless - Taravangian had bested Dalinar no matter if he won or lost the Contest. He owned most of Roshar, having peace served Odium's plans, allowing him to raise an army to invade Cosmere and he could always arrange breaking the peace and starting a new war on Roshar anytime he wanted. He knew Taravangian would find a way to make humans break the terms of peace, allowing Odium to restart the war and all the Contest would achieve was to push the problem down to the next generation, just like it happened with every Desolation before.

This wasn't any solution, in fact Honor was a part of the problem and Dalinar realized that the only way to solve this problem was to break the cycle of Desolations and allow Honor to learn and redefine itself - this couldn't happen with Dalinar as Honor because Honor alone is devoid of context provided by other Shards, which once existed together as one in Adonalsium and gave context and meaning to themselves.

With combined and free Odium and Honor, other Shards could no longer ignore Odium and had to take immediate actions against Retribution, as now he became the ultimate danger to all of Cosmere. Keeping Odium restricted is no longer the problem of Rosharans alone, it is also the problem of Shards now who ignored him up to this point (no, asking other Shards for help wouldn't work as Tanavast already tried this and was simply ignored by all) and with Taravangian distracted by other Shards, Rosharans will have time to develop a plan to end this threat for good. Moreover, Honor now has a context provided by Odium from which he can learn and grow to understand that oaths or wanting to fight Odium aren’t everything. Without that context Honor can't change, so Dalinar staying as Honor's Vessel wouldn't change anything in the end - Desolations would still be raging, Odium and Honor would be clashing, people would be dying and Roshar would be suffering. WaT ch 142:

Quote

“What kind of peace?” Nohadon asked. “Enforced? No ability to choose?”
“That … serves him, doesn’t it?” Dalinar said. “Taravangian’s predecessor spent millennia—all of the wars—trying to build himself unstoppable armies. That didn’t work, as it merely broke us. With enforced peace though, Taravangian can recruit, train, marshal his forces—pick careful engagements offworld to build veteran experience. That’s how you train a military.” Dalinar put his hands to his head. “I need to break the cycle of constant battle.”
“So that is what victory looks like to you?”
“Everything serves him!” Dalinar said, standing up, pacing. “Every possible outcome! Peace serves him, war serves him! Everything I could think of, everything I could do!” He stopped by one of those windows, bathed in the strange light. “I can’t defeat him … Storms, I really just can’t.”
[...]
Who could stop the war?
“The powers,” Dalinar whispered. “The war will stop when the powers themselves want it to stop.”
[...]
“Almost…” Dalinar said. “The power needs time to learn, and ways to experience the lessons to change, but I can’t give them either. Because time is what Taravangian wants. So he can plot. I can’t let him do that, so I need to simultaneously buy time for Honor’s power, but deny it to Taravangian.”
The answer was so close. Today, Dalinar had seen true honor. As Adolin stood for Azir, and Renarin set right a terrible wrong. As Jasnah picked herself up from failure, and Shallan rose above what had been done to her. And Kaladin …
Blood of my fathers, Dalinar thought, realizing. Kaladin will preserve a piece … That’s what we need …
Now that he knew the end he wanted, Dalinar could see the answers. You never could find them unless you knew what you were looking for, could you?
“I can’t stop Odium,” Dalinar whispered, a plan forming. “But they can.” He looked to Nohadon. “Am I simply doing the same thing that has always been done, though? Kicking the problem down to the next generation. Isn’t that an awful idea?”
“That depends,” Nohadon said, “upon what aid you can give them. And upon the type of people they are.”
“They are the best,” Dalinar whispered. “There will be a cost, won’t there? I need Taravangian to think he’s won."

WaT ch 143:

Quote

I could not defeat Odium, he told them. But I can buy you time. For Odium is about to have his attention entirely consumed by a greater problem.
This was Dalinar’s final test: at long last, trusting someone else to do the job.
With a smile, he felt echoes through the cosmere. Each time Honor had gone to the other gods for help, they’d been content to leave Roshar alone. To make Odium someone else’s problem.
Dalinar could see the difference between giving up responsibility—as they had—and ensuring someone else had the chance you could not. As of now, the other gods’ attention fixated on Taravangian. Each of those vast beings witnessed the birth of the most powerful and dangerous thing that had existed since the Shattering of Adonalsium.
Those forces together acknowledged that they had an enemy. Freed from his constraints, supremely strong. He was the biggest threat in the entire cosmere.

 

[scottos]

I can't remember the exact lines, but it seemed like Honor didn't want Dalinar to take the power. Dalinar realized this and lets go of the power. This is a leap of faith for Dalinar, requiring him to trust in the sentience that Honor has developed. Hoid knows Dalinar did something really clever and I'm guessing part of this is the time bubble on Roshar. My guess is that this move by Dalinar was more important than we realize at this point, that Taravangian's life just got much more complicated, and this will be one of the mysteries we explore in the second half of Stormlight.

[rabidhexley]

I think a point that was kind of glossed over is that Retribution went into hiding shortly after the challenge. It was pointed out that he could do very little in terms of direct meddling on Roshar because he doesn't want to draw the attention of the other Shards. I think this is a very important point, because in any other circumstance Odium would have been able to hang around perpetuating strife on Roshar, and furthering his plans and gathering his forces for the war on the Cosmere. If Retribution wasn't freed but still locked onto Roshar as Odium, he could still act freely on Roshar because he wouldn't be a present threat to the rest of the Cosmere.

 

By making him into Retribution, Dalinar didn't just buy time and get the rest of the Shards to finally have motivation to address the threat, but delayed Odium's abilities to directly act on his short-term plans for Roshar. If Dalinar didn't ascend, it's as everyone said, Odium would have managed to generate strife and eventually build up his forces anyways. If Dalinar held onto the Shard, it would have been the same since they would be left in the same stalemate scenario Tanavast was in.

 

The best-case scenarios would be Dalinar destroying Odium, screw the consequences. Or settling in for a crappy 1000 years while Odium orchestrates a remote/proxy war. The whole problem with Odium as far as the rest of the Shards go is that he's only a potential threat. Even in executing a remote war he's not really a direct threat on the other shards. Even if just Odium himself was freed the other Shards likely would have hesitated to address him until it was too late. Even Dalinar threatening to release Odium or give Honor to him wouldn't do the trick since Taravangian is patient and could just counter-negotiate and convince them to kick the can further down the road ("I'll just stay here for another 1000 years, tee hee, don't worry about it.")

 

By creating Retribution, Dalinar put Taravangian into the situation of being a clear and present danger that can absolutely not be ignored or pushed onto someone else. And the time bubble gives the rest of the Cosmere a massive edge in being able to prepare for anything Taravangian might be able to cook-up on Roshar.

 

Now despite things being bad in the near-term, Retribution isn't able to directly begin his plans because he isn't ready to take on the rest of the Cosmere, and something might actually be done about him on a timescale that doesn't span millennia.

Edited January 8, 2025 by rabidhexley