Shouldn't Szeth Be Able to Trivially Get His Arm Back?

[ShadowBroker]

Nightblood can replicate the effects of 9 out of 10 surges now. And while radiants with access to progression are functionally useless outside of locked-down Urithiru where there's no access to Stormlight, cutting people like Adolin off from regrowth, Nightblood can consume any form of investiture, including potentially abundant warlight. It shouldn't be hard for Szeth to get his hands on some spheres (though maybe he'd have to buy them from the Listeners? Maybe not? Maybe he can get some in Shinovar?) and work with Nightblood, who's gotten a big leg-up in the whole self-control thing. Losing his arm seems like it should be only a minor inconvenience for him.

[Treamayne]

34 minutes ago, ShadowBroker said:

Nightblood can replicate the effects of 9 out of 10 surges now. And while radiants with access to progression are functionally useless outside of locked-down Urithiru where there's no access to Stormlight, cutting people like Adolin off from regrowth, Nightblood can consume any form of investiture, including potentially abundant warlight. It shouldn't be hard for Szeth to get his hands on some spheres (though maybe he'd have to buy them from the Listeners? Maybe not? Maybe he can get some in Shinovar?) and work with Nightblood, who's gotten a big leg-up in the whole self-control thing. Losing his arm seems like it should be only a minor inconvenience for him.

Szeth no longer has a spren and could not hold the light to feed to Nightblood, much less to use Regrowth. Also, Nightblood consumed his arm, so I do not think Nightblood could restore it. Regrowth heals based on the Spiritweb and Spiritual Ideal. Nightblood consumes in all three realms, so the Spiritweb for Szeth's arm is likely missing. I doubt any version of Cosmere Healing could heal that, unless he can first heal the Spiritweb itself.

[Nitpicking]

16 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Szeth no longer has a spren and could not hold the light to feed to Nightblood, much less to use Regrowth. Also, Nightblood consumed his arm, so I do not think Nightblood could restore it. Regrowth heals based on the Spiritweb and Spiritual Ideal. Nightblood consumes in all three realms, so the Spiritweb for Szeth's arm is likely missing. I doubt any version of Cosmere Healing could heal that, unless he can first heal the Spiritweb itself.

Nightblood could presumably consume Light directly from a gemstone, without "filtering" it through Szeth first. There's also a WoB somewhere that it is, in fact, possible to heal the Spiritweb. I mean, the deadeyes are healing, finally.

[christianrapper]

18 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Szeth no longer has a spren and could not hold the light to feed to Nightblood, much less to use Regrowth. Also, Nightblood consumed his arm, so I do not think Nightblood could restore it. Regrowth heals based on the Spiritweb and Spiritual Ideal. Nightblood consumes in all three realms, so the Spiritweb for Szeth's arm is likely missing. I doubt any version of Cosmere Healing could heal that, unless he can first heal the Spiritweb itself.

I don’t get your point about Nightblood not being able to restore it because he took it. That doesn’t make any sense. However, the lack of Stormlight is probably the biggest reason that Nightblood can’t restore his arm. 

[Treamayne]

12 minutes ago, christianrapper said:

I don’t get your point about Nightblood not being able to restore it because he took it. That doesn’t make any sense. However, the lack of Stormlight is probably the biggest reason that Nightblood can’t restore his arm. 

Warbreaker Ch 56:

Spoiler

The blade sprayed a wave of black liquid as he swung it. The liquid dissolved into smoke before touching walls or floor, like water in an oven. Smoke twisted, some rising from the blade, some falling in a stream to the floor, dripping like black blood.

Destroy! Nightblood’s voice boomed in his head. The evil must be destroyed! Pain shot up Vasher’s arm, and he felt his Breath being leached away, sucked into the blade, fueling its hunger. Drawing the weapon had a terrible cost. At that moment, he didn’t really care.

<snip>

In a matter of minutes, the Breath Vivenna had given him had been reduced by half. Yet in those moments, he destroyed all fifty Lifeless.

<snip>

The pain in his arm was incredible, and his Breath was draining away at an alarming rate. Once it was gone, Nightblood would kill him.

Everything was growing fuzzy. He slashed through a final wall, finding the room where he had been tortured.

It was empty.

He cried out, arm shaking. Destroy…evil…Nightblood said in his mind, all lightness gone from the tone, all familiarity. It boomed like a command. An awful, inhuman thing. The longer Vasher held the sword, the faster it drained his Breath.

Nightblood consumes the investiture of the wielder at an exponentially increasing rate - he would be eating what was "fixed" far faster than it could be fixed. 

I expect that it would be a very unlikely set of circumstances that would allow Nightblood to provide Regrowth, and heal the wielder without consuming the light doing the healing before it can heal - maybe if Dalinar was still around and it was done close enough to the Bondsmith Perpendicularity? But then you still have the likely Spiritweb damage that would have to be fixed before you can even heal the arm, and Regrowth has not been shown to heal a spiritweb - only healing the body to match the spiritweb. So if Szeth's missing arm is also missing from his spiritweb (unlike a Shardblade cut, where the part is still there, but the Connection to that limb has been severed) then Regrowth from any source, including Nightblood, would not fix Szeth's arm. 

Edited January 2, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[alder24]

18 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Also, Nightblood consumed his arm, so I do not think Nightblood could restore it. Regrowth heals based on the Spiritweb and Spiritual Ideal. Nightblood consumes in all three realms, so the Spiritweb for Szeth's arm is likely missing. I doubt any version of Cosmere Healing could heal that, unless he can first heal the Spiritweb itself.

This shouldn't matter at all. It's no different than any other damage done to the Spirit Web either with Hemalurgy or a Shardblade. And if you can regrow a part of your Spirit Web stolen by a spike, Szeth can most definitely regrow his arm. It's all about perception. So we should be asking ourselves if Szeth wants to regrow his arm at all, or if he views it now as a part of himself - a sign of a new chapter in his life in which he doesn't have to fight anymore, not only because he chose not to, but because he's missing an arm. 

Spoiler

Kurkistan

Could Miles heal back his Allomancy if it was spiked out of him?

Brandon Sanderson

No, he could not. He would no longer be an Allomancer. Also, he'd probably be dead.

Kurkistan

Thanks!

I'd thought maybe he could just do some super-tapping from his existing Health in his goldminds (since he'd still have his Feruchemy)...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, I see what you're asking. Using Feruchemy to heal the removed portion of soul. That's actually plausible, not so different from healing other kinds of soul-wounds. If he survived, then yes, this actually might work. (That's why I get for reading the questions so quickly.)

Goodreads: Ask the Author Q&A (Aug. 13, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

I notice that Stormlight seems to be a bit volatile in how well it heals or who it heals. Because it seems like Renarin's eyesight would have been a long term problem, kinda like Rysn's legs maybe and Lopen's arm. But Lopen's arm got healed, Rysn's legs didn't and Kaladin's scars didn't. So I didn't know if there was a reason for those things.

Brandon Sanderson

So Stormlight healing, there's a couple things that have to be considered. But in reference to what you're saying, the person's perception of themselves is a huge part of it.  The way healing works in the cosmere is, you've got the three versions of yourself. You've got your Physical version, your Cognitive version, and your Spiritual version, And a lot of Stormlight is taking your Physical version and matching it to the Spiritual version which is your ideal self.  But it has to be filtered through the lens of your mind, and things like this.

I almost always--probably should say always--am using it to reinforce some sort of character attribute. The fact that Lopen never saw himself, even though he only had one arm, as being disabled, as a big influence, versus whether Kaladin feels deserves his brands or not. Does that makes sense?  And those are two very different things that influence how the healing works. And you will see that as a metaphor and theme, if you watch what heals and what doesn't.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

19 hours ago, ShadowBroker said:

Nightblood can replicate the effects of 9 out of 10 surges now. And while radiants with access to progression are functionally useless outside of locked-down Urithiru where there's no access to Stormlight, cutting people like Adolin off from regrowth, Nightblood can consume any form of investiture, including potentially abundant warlight. It shouldn't be hard for Szeth to get his hands on some spheres (though maybe he'd have to buy them from the Listeners? Maybe not? Maybe he can get some in Shinovar?) and work with Nightblood, who's gotten a big leg-up in the whole self-control thing. Losing his arm seems like it should be only a minor inconvenience for him.

But even if he wants to heal his arm and he still views himself as having both arms, he doesn't have any light for it. There is no Stormlight anymore, Warlight is very limited and you need to pray to Retribution to get it, lastly he isn't a Radiant anymore so he can't hold any light. And while Nightblood likely can connect himself and feed directly from spheres, the last time he did this, Szeth lost his arm. Yes, Nightblood changed, he chose not to consume Szeth and Kaladin, but he's still driven by his Command when drawn, it's still extremely dangerous to use him when you can't hold any light. Too dangerous.

However, we know that Honorblades were a prototype version of Shardblades and Regrowth granted by them did not allow for healing wounds of the soul. This is because the bond between a Honorblade and its bearer is weaker and not as deep as the one between a Radiant and their spren. The important question is how deep is the bond between Nightblood and its bearer - Szeth? Is it comparable to the Radiant bond or the Honorblade bond? If it's like the Honorblade bond, Szeth can't regrow his arm even if he wants and if he does have Warlight (because Nightblood consumes in all three Realms).

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

A full-blown Radiant can heal almost anything (cut from a Shardblade included) because of the way the magic works--their soul is literally bonded to Investiture, and it suffuses them in such a way that even the soul is very resilient to damage.

Honorblades are what you'd consider a "prototype" for what eventually happened with Shardblades. An Honorblade can be used by anyone, without need for oaths, which makes them very dangerous--but since the bond isn't as deep, they are far less efficient. They use more Stormlight, for example, and can't heal to the extent that a Radiant can.

So the difference is not in the device that did the damage, but in the method using to heal. Over the course of the first two book, the reader should be able to subtly pick out differences from what Szeth says is possible (in more than just healing) and what Kaladin experiences.

General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 8, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Szeth says in the first Stormlight book that he can't heal from a Shardblade--

Brandon Sanderson

He can't.

Questioner

So when he got cut he couldn't heal that...

Brandon Sanderson

No. Not with his powers.

Questioner

Not from an Honorblade.

Brandon Sanderson

Not from an Honorblade.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

 

[Treamayne]

15 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's no different than any other damage done to the Spirit Web either with Hemalurgy or a Shardblade.

Agree to disagree.

I believe there is a huge difference between 1) My physical arm is missing , but the spiritweb is intact (Lopen); 2) My physical arm is present, my spiritweb is intact, but the connection was severed (Shardblade); -and- 3) Nightblood consumed my storming arm in all three realms and that portion of the Spiritweb is gone. 

Yes, Compounded Gold was WoBed to be able to heal a Hemalurgic wound to the Spiritweb. However - 1) We do not know that applies to Stormlight Healing and Regrowth (which are both said to match the physical to the Spiritweb - not heal the Spiritweb); and 2) That such a wound would behave the same as that portion of the spirtweb consumed and destroyed on all three realms.

Based on current information, and pending further data or WoBs - there is nothing I have found that definitively says this is possible or impossible. I find it very unlikely, however, because that is essentially negating everything we know about how Nightblood functions and all of the danger represented by wielding Nightblood. 

[alder24]

16 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

3) Nightblood consumed my storming arm in all three realms and that portion of the Spiritweb is gone. 

Which is the very same thing Hemalurgy does. If a Hemalurgic wound can be healed, Szeth's missing arm also can be healed if the correct method of healing is used. All forms of healing in Cosmere take your physical self and match it to your spiritual self, filtering it through your cognitive self - the way you think of yourself shapes the way your spiritual Ideal of yourself looks. As long as Szeth views himself as having two arms, he can heal it even if his arm was consumed by Nightblood in all three Realms.

Edit: So I have to disagree with you because all available information points towards this conclusion - this is how healing in Cosmere works and what Nightblood did is no different than a Hemalurgic wound.

Spoiler

Questioner

We know that magical healing has a lot to do with Identity, like Lopen and Rysn. Suppose someone was tapping Identity from an unkeyed metalmind, and then you tried to heal them with any kind of magical healing. What would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Most likely, that person’s perspective of themself is going to filter that unkeyed metalmind, and so what’s going to happen is what would normally happen to that person. In most instances. There are ways to get around that, but the vast majority, that’s what you’re gonna see.

Questioner

And if they were storing Identity instead?

Brandon Sanderson

Then you’re gonna go back to their Cognitive picture of themselves, which is going to be what’s filtering this, how they see themselves. If you knock them unconscious, they can’t see themselves, you’re blanking them of Identity, and things like that. They still, basically, will have… it’s gonna be really hard to get that all separated. The mental picture of themselves still exists on the Spiritual Realm. Remember, Realmatics is based on Plato’s theories of the forms, but your perspective is what’s shaping that. So there’s still gonna be, like, on the Spiritual Realm, there’s gonna be some version of yourself that is deeply influenced by how you view yourself that is going to be what that Investiture is trying to match, it’s trying to bring your body into alignment with that. So you’ve gotta replace that thing if you want it to do something different. Which you can do with Hemalurgy.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Edited January 2, 2025 by alder24