This modern language complaint is just odd.

[christianrapper]

Ok. I have a lot of problems with book 5, but one complaint that I have heard that’s just baffling is the use of “modern” language. We are explicitly shown that the use of so called modern language is taught to the Rosharans by world hoppers. The language that is used is native to the Cosmere. It has been used in other books in the Cosmere. It’s not just modern language. You are supposed to imagine that these people are real. Real people pick up words that are used by their friends and colleagues. For example, Wit literally tells Kaladin that he’s inventing therapy. Kal had no idea what Wit was talking about until Wit explained it to him. What is Kaladin supposed to call the concept of therapy that had no previous Rosharan word? You also hear “modern” swears which are just swears used in other Cosmere books. When it’s used then you hear someone remark that you have been hanging around Zahel. This integration of “modern” words,which are really just words that we have read in other Cosmere books, is one of the most realistic things in this book. Roshar is populated by visitors from other worlds. Rosharans didn’t even know what investiture was until book 3, but they now use the term. That’s literally how foreign words and concepts are introduced into language in real life.

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, christianrapper said:

Ok. I have a lot of problems with book 5, but one complaint that I have heard that’s just baffling is the use of “modern” language. We are explicitly shown that the use of so called modern language is taught to the Rosharans by world hoppers. The language that is used is native to the Cosmere. It has been used in other books in the Cosmere. It’s not just modern language. You are supposed to imagine that these people are real. Real people pick up words that are used by their friends and colleagues. For example, Wit literally tells Kaladin that he’s inventing therapy. Kal had no idea what Wit was talking about until Wit explained it to him. What is Kaladin supposed to call the concept of therapy that had no previous Rosharan word?

My problem with it is not that the use of the language exists, it's the timing and implementation. If this change had been in Book 6 - no problem at all - at least 10 years would have passed and langauge drift is real. If it had happened in RoW, less-of-a-problem as there was a 1 year time skip that might explain the language drift. But to have this much change in WaT when it is the next day after the the end of RoW. . . that is a consistency issue, not a worldbuilding fragment. 

3 hours ago, christianrapper said:

 You also hear “modern” swears which are just swears used in other Cosmere books. When it’s used then you hear someone remark that you have been hanging around Zahel. This integration of “modern” words,which are really just words that we have read in other Cosmere books, is one of the most realistic things in this book. Roshar is populated by visitors from other worlds. Rosharans didn’t even know what investiture was until book 3, but they now use the term. That’s literally how foreign words and concepts are introduced into language in real life.

And this is one of those problems, Early on they blame Lift's language on Vasher - but Vasher is from Nalthis where they swear by the Colors and the Iridescent Tones. He has never been to Scadrial (where they do use this language). If they had blamed Felt (or any other Scadrian Worldhopper) - or even Wit - the explanation might make sense. In this case it feels like an error, not an explanation.

WoB:

Spoiler

shoeties

Has Vasher ever been to a world other than Nalthis or Roshar, or was this his first time worldhopping?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher has only been to Roshar and Nalthis, beyond places in Shadesmar.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 25, 2015)

I don't mind linguistic drift, presented properly. My problem isn't the language, it's the presentation and inconsistent explanations. 

Hope that helps

Edited December 31, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Lithale]

How do we know Vasher has never been to Scadrial?

I don't understand the complaints either. It feels more like people are offended by the language use. BS has been using modern language throughout SA and the rest of the Cosmere.

[Nitpicking]

1 hour ago, Lithale said:

How do we know Vasher has never been to Scadrial?

There was a WoB a few years back saying he had only visited Roshar.

[QuantumAce]

5 hours ago, Treamayne said:

My problem with it is not that the use of the language exists, it's the timing and implementation. If this change had been in Book 6 - no problem at all - at least 10 years would have passed and langauge drift is real. If it had happened in RoW, less-of-a-problem as there was a 1 year time skip that might explain the language drift. But to have this much change in WaT when it is the next day after the the end of RoW. . . that is a consistency issue, not a worldbuilding fragment. 

I don't even have a problem with the language, but I agree the implementation doesn't feel natural. I tend to power through books on the first read through, and it take a lot to pull me out when I am in the zone. I would think it was strange if Kaladin noticed Dorthy and Toto zip past in a highstorm, but one line wouldnt pull me out of the story. There were multiple points where the language did feel unnatural enough to completely pull me out. It didnt make the book less enjoyable, but it was noticeable.

I do have a feeling it will be less significant on my next read through, when it will be one of the points I am actively looking out for. 

[Rorzikel]

I do find it a little odd that Brandon would rather use "evanotype" in place of photograph or "half-beard" for goatee on Scadrial, but made certain decisions like keeping "therapist", "neuroses", "mentally ill" etc.

It's not terrible or anything, but he's previously been willing to conlang, use synonyms, or speak more formally with other English terms that I think would have stood out less to the reader than here.

[Treamayne]

54 minutes ago, Rorzikel said:

I do find it a little odd that Brandon would rather use "evanotype" in place of photograph or "half-beard" for goatee on Scadrial, but made certain decisions like keeping "therapist", "neuroses", "mentally ill" etc.

Well, part of Scadrial's progression is specifically "call-outs" to similar levels in our own tech history - especially early on. In Era 1 he was trying to evoke a Victorian feel (Gothic stained glass, lime lights, canal systems, etc.) and that likely played an important component of those word-choices. 

[Ripheus23]

My own use of profanity/slang has mutated so much in the mere 34 years since I started speaking that I would hardly be surprised to find out that someone living an unnaturally long life on multiple planets had changes in their own word usage too.

Incidentally, IDK if they edited this in other printings, but the first run of RoW had a ton of uses of the word "though" without a pertinent comma attached (I think that was what I noticed). I think it was in the descriptive parts of the text, not the dialogue parts, but so the point is that Sanderson's own word usage changes over time (I didn't notice him write like that either before or since RoW), it would be possibly even more unrealistic if similar changes didn't happen for his characters...

Edited January 1, 2025 by Ripheus23

[QuantumHarmonix he/him]

Isn't part of the contrivance of the books supposed to be that someone is using Connection to translate Rosharian to English? So I see it being not so much that modern language has suddenly sprung up, but that our awareness of more modern terms now has a better connection to the initial words meaning. But I can see that being kind of a meta explanation and could feel like watching someone pretend to be a time traveler at a ren fair. It didn't bother me but I can see it not being in line with the tone someone was expecting from a previously medieval or renaissance like setting. Personally, I started seeing the setting as more of a mix of science fiction and fantasy the more they pull in the rest of the Cosmere. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

17 hours ago, Treamayne said:

My problem with it is not that the use of the language exists, it's the timing and implementation. If this change had been in Book 6 - no problem at all - at least 10 years would have passed and langauge drift is real. If it had happened in RoW, less-of-a-problem as there was a 1 year time skip that might explain the language drift. But to have this much change in WaT when it is the next day after the the end of RoW. . . that is a consistency issue, not a worldbuilding fragment.

The Knights of Wind and Truth from which Wind and Truth is "derived" was written several years after Rhythm of War as written by Raboniel, who was thousands of years old when she wrote it.

[Lord Spirit he/him]

6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The Knights of Wind and Truth from which Wind and Truth is "derived" was written several years after Rhythm of War as written by Raboniel, who was thousands of years old when she wrote it.

Yes, the in world books were written by very different people, but the actual books were both written by Brandon Sanderson. I don’t know if there is going to be an in world author of the Stormlight archive, but I doubt it. 

[Nitpicking]

The phrase that gets me is "200 proof" (when Kaladin is resisting Ishar's depression magic).

So on Roshar, which doesn't have distillation, they use the American system of grading spirits by alcohol content? When they don't know what alcohol is?

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

The phrase that gets me is "200 proof" (when Kaladin is resisting Ishar's depression magic).

So on Roshar, which doesn't have distillation, they use the American system of grading spirits by alcohol content? When they don't know what alcohol is?

They do have Distillation on Roshar. In fact, most "wines" are actually distilled grain spirits. WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner #1

On Roshar, all the alcohol on Roshar is called wine.

Brandon Sanderson

Yep.

Questioner #1

Some of it is different from what we have on Earth...

Brandon Sanderson

Yep. All of it, actually. Well, not all of it--there's some actual Shin wine that you would call wine.

Questioner #1

So, on Roshar, do they have distillation processes, or do they have some sort of super yeast that can go way higher than the 20% cap?

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of what you're seeing we would just call spirits or liqueurs here. They do have some grain based things and stuff like that. They're not making beer, they're mostly making spirits.

This whole linguistic thing is one of those little clues that I embedded for certain reasons that we won't go into. The reason they call everything wine, the reason that seasons... they call seasons and we're like, "Wait! Those aren't seasons!", and things like that... *with some audience nudging* Chickens is the other big one. This is all there for a specific reason, but the further we get and the better help I get from beta readers... thank the beta readers for the scenes in Oathbringer, where a certain character is getting drunk--they helped me a lot on that. The better information I get from the betas in these things, I write stuff and then they tell me "Ah Brandon, you know nothing about beer!" and I'm like "Well yes, I do not know much about beer!" *laughter* "So tell me..." and the better it gets. I'm trying to give you more and more in the books about that because it is important to specifically several of the characters, and so I wanted to get it right. But most of what they're drinking would be harder than what you might assume.

Questioner #1

So, distilled or brewed?

Brandon Sanderson

Distilled, mostly distilled.

Questioner #2

Are there fermentation spren? *laughter*

Brandon Sanderson

I would say yes. There are probably fermentation spren. Because some of the lower... like some of the colors are actual fruit... like *asking back* what do you do when making wine, you're brewing wine, and *with audience help* pressing wine, and you ferment wine. And so, some of them you would drink and be like, "Okay, this is wine-like. It's not made from grapes, but its wine-like." A lot of the... further on the wheel, you'd drink and you'd be like "Oh, this tastes like Vodka! Why're you calling it wine?" Well that's what their word for alcohol is.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

They also know what alcohol is - the use of "Wine" is meant to imply a linguistic holdover from Ashyn (much like Chicken is used for all birds) meaning they say terms like "Saph" the same way ew would say "whiskey." One could really say "wine" is the Alethi word for "alcohol" similar to places IRL where all tissues are called "Kleenex," or all pop is called "coke."

Hope that helps

[Nitpicking]

I agree that they have distillation. Somehow in those 15 normal books worth of text, I forgot that passage. "Wine" can't be alcohol, because there's a non-alcoholic "wine" in that color-based system. They don't really have chemistry per se, or even alchemy, just a sort of much-better-than-anything-real system of herbal medicine.

[christianrapper]

12 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

The phrase that gets me is "200 proof" (when Kaladin is resisting Ishar's depression magic).

So on Roshar, which doesn't have distillation, they use the American system of grading spirits by alcohol content? When they don't know what alcohol is?

Going by that logic, they aren’t from America but they speak American English. Also, they don’t know what alcohol is, but they drink Horneater white, Horneater Lager, and other forms of Alcohol. I don’t get your point. 

[Nitpicking]

The point is, using American slang was not a thing in books 1-4, but suddenly is in 5.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 12/31/2024 at 8:56 AM, Treamayne said:

My problem with it is not that the use of the language exists, it's the timing and implementation. If this change had been in Book 6 - no problem at all - at least 10 years would have passed and langauge drift is real. If it had happened in RoW, less-of-a-problem as there was a 1 year time skip that might explain the language drift. But to have this much change in WaT when it is the next day after the the end of RoW. . . that is a consistency issue, not a worldbuilding fragment. 

And this is one of those problems, Early on they blame Lift's language on Vasher - but Vasher is from Nalthis where they swear by the Colors and the Iridescent Tones. He has never been to Scadrial (where they do use this language). If they had blamed Felt (or any other Scadrian Worldhopper) - or even Wit - the explanation might make sense. In this case it feels like an error, not an explanation.

WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

shoeties

Has Vasher ever been to a world other than Nalthis or Roshar, or was this his first time worldhopping?

Brandon Sanderson

Vasher has only been to Roshar and Nalthis, beyond places in Shadesmar.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 25, 2015)

I don't mind linguistic drift, presented properly. My problem isn't the language, it's the presentation and inconsistent explanations. 

Hope that helps

Maybe this is just me, but I took that line from Wyndle as him demonstrating his prejudice for Zahel/Vasher "having a bad influence" on Lift. I don't think Lift heard it from Vasher. I think Lift heard it elsewhere and Wyndle blamed it on Vasher and your point holds up. I just think Sanderson did it on purpose, not by accident.

I do agree that the tone has changed, but personally, I'm here for it. I enjoyed it.

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

Maybe this is just me, but I took that line from Wyndle as him demonstrating his prejudice for Zahel/Vasher "having a bad influence" on Lift. I don't think Lift heard it from Vasher. I think Lift heard it elsewhere and Wyndle blamed it on Vasher and your point holds up. I just think Sanderson did it on purpose, not by accident.

Wasn't just Wyndle. WaT Ch 33:

Spoiler

She nodded, then the two of them looked—slowly—toward the bare portion of stone where the portal had been.

“Well, S..t,” Lift said.

“You heard that from Zahel, haven’t you?” Wit said, his eyes growing distant.

“Why do people keep saying that?”

“Rosharans don’t use that particular word as an epithet,” Wit said

Edit: Funny - the profanity monitor also changed the book quote. . . 

Edited January 2, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

Just now, Treamayne said:

“Why do people keep saying that?”

“Rosharans don’t use that particular word as an epithet,” Wit said

I forgot Wit blamed that on Zahel, but Lift also asks, "Why do people keep saying that?" Which read to me like, "No I didn't hear it from him, why do people keep saying that?" or it could be a consistency error.

[Treamayne]

21 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I forgot Wit blamed that on Zahel, but Lift also asks, "Why do people keep saying that?" Which read to me like, "No I didn't hear it from him, why do people keep saying that?" or it could be a consistency error.

I can see that interpretation, but I took it as "yes, of course - but why is that obvious to people." 

Spoiler

My point was that Zahel was the wrong patsy anyway, because it makes the whole sequence seem fake - compared to all of his Color-based idioms previously. Like OB Ch 16:

Quote

“You disagree?”

“Every moment in our lives seems trivial,” Zahel said. “Most are forgotten while some, equally humble, become the points upon which history pivots. Like white on black.”

“White … on black?” Dalinar asked.

“Figure of speech. 

 

Edit - maybe it is a continuity error:

Spoiler

How is she supposed to have heard these words from Zahel anyway? He's been missing since before the occupation, and she was not speaking like this in RoW. . . 

 

Edited January 2, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG/Examples

[christianrapper]

13 hours ago, JohnnyKaizen said:

I forgot Wit blamed that on Zahel, but Lift also asks, "Why do people keep saying that?" Which read to me like, "No I didn't hear it from him, why do people keep saying that?" or it could be a consistency error.

It’s not a consistency error. Lift meant “how do people know that?”

[Ahriman he/him]

On 1/1/2025 at 9:44 PM, Nitpicking said:

The phrase that gets me is "200 proof" (when Kaladin is resisting Ishar's depression magic).

So on Roshar, which doesn't have distillation, they use the American system of grading spirits by alcohol content? When they don't know what alcohol is?

I don't care if they know what distillation is or not, and I don't know enough about alcohol myself to know what proof means anyway. What was really bad about that line was the fact that, like you said, it was in the middle of Ishar trying to suffocate them with despair. This isn't the time for quippy similies at all, it's a time for good emotional writing, and that line ruined any emotional impact the scene had.

On 1/2/2025 at 10:43 AM, Nitpicking said:

The point is, using American slang was not a thing in books 1-4, but suddenly is in 5.

I remember in book 3 or 4 Shallan thinks about how she'd seen Jasnah "straight up execute somebody." I remember it because at the time, I thought it made me feel like I was reading a Facebook post from a teenager rather than a published novel that I should take seriously, but at least it wasn't in as jarring a place as the proof thing. What I mean to say is, the slang was present in previous books but it was more ignorable. It's ramped up in this one and it's used in too many jarring contexts. I've always just accepted that I'll roll my eyes at the prose a couple times per book, and considered it a worthwhile price for the good parts, but this was a much more intense eye rolling session than it has been with previous books.