The Davars

[Isilel]

WaT explained some of their oddities, but not others.

If the baleful influence on the Davars was all due to Chana, why did they become much worse after her death? Shouldn't they have gotten better? 

And what did the Ghostbloods see in Lin, by all accounts a thoroughly mediocre rural noble, who was fully into his downward spiral when he was recruited? They didn't care about Chana's kids and laughed at Balat in WoK when he proposed himself as a replacement for his late father in their schemes.

I still don't quite understand why Shallan's full brothers got nothing except for their mental problems from their Herald mother. I have always thought that finally admitting what really happened to their mother to them would be one of the eventual steps on Shallan's journey, but now I also fear that they could be used both against her and against Chana since Hoid sent them somewhere outside Urithiru for their safety. 

Though as regards Shallan herself and Chana's delusion of her daughter taking her place as a Herald, I have to wonder if there might not be something there. There is a Connection, with Shallan being an only daughter and a demi-god's Intent. Shallan also exhibits strange powers, while Chana has allegedly  become "weak". There is additionally the fact that Ash is planned to be a flashback character for the Dustbringer book. Can it be that Chana was partially successful and that if she is fully destroyed, that her tie to the Oathpact will transfer to Shallan? With Shallan and Shallash subsequently trading places?

It  seems that Shallan must not look much like her mother, besides the coloring - which is common among Vedens and was shared by Helaran. None of the people who saw Hoid's portrait of Chana seem to have noticed a particular likeness. Neither did Kalak. Chana must also have a sufficiently large frame to be mistaken for a Horneater by Renarin.

It is now clear that Nale became interested in Helaran because he was already keeping the tabs on their family. And that Helaran was so normal because he wasn't Chana's child, but apparently a legitimised bastard. Whom she must have accepted whole-heartedly, because he seemed deeply devoted to her memory back in WoR. OTOH, his gifts of art supplies and pep-talks to Shallan seem somewhat sinister in hindsight, since they could be easily construed as testing whether her Radiance was truly gone.

 

Edited December 30, 2024 by Isilel

[teknopathetic he/him]

I’m also curious if Chana was completely wrong about Shallan taking her place. Maybe Shallan had to die first in order for the plan to work? But the way Brandon wrote it, Chana did nothing and assumed it would work somehow? It almost felt lazy of Brandon to me to have no truth behind her plan at all…

And you are right in that it is odd the family is still influenced after Chana’s death. We know it is difficult for Heralds to have children, so maybe the kids are in some meaningful way part herald. Not enough to take the place of a herald, but almost the way a child of a returned might have some powers. 

Edited December 30, 2024 by teknopathetic

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

If the baleful influence on the Davars was all due to Chana, why did they become much worse after her death? Shouldn't they have gotten better?

35 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

And you are right in that it is odd the family is still influenced after Chana’s death.

It was not due only to Chana, there was an Unmade influencing them after her death. WoB:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

There's a scene where you can see from the perspective of Nan Balat, Shallan's brother, where he's maiming an insect. It's described as soothing his aches. Is that in any way related to how Kaladin feels depressed and down during the Weeping even in his early childhood?

Brandon Sanderson

What's happening to Nan Balat is magically enhanced. What's happening to Kaladin is mostly just chemical depression. Be he is really too young to be diagnosed with depression during some of these events, but he's got the seeds in there. So Kaladin is not magically depressed. Kaladin is just legitimatly a person with depression. Nan Balat... What's up with him is... ah... being exaggerated by certain forces moving in on Roshar. (last bit is a bit indistinctive)

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

Quote

Questioner

Was Shallan's family, during her childhood, being influenced by an Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, yes.

Questioner

Was it the corrupting--

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that, but yes, there is some external influence there. 

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

We still do not know which one, or how - but it is likely the Ghostbloods were interested in Lin Davar because they were trying to figure out which Unmade and why it was active in that area. 

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

If the baleful influence on the Davars was all due to Chana, why did they become much worse after her death? Shouldn't they have gotten better? 

They were Herald's kids, they all carried parts of her in her Spirit Web, they all were affected by it all the time. It's just like Vivenna and Siri and their Returned Blood.

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

And what did the Ghostbloods see in Lin, by all accounts a thoroughly mediocre rural noble, who was fully into his downward spiral when he was recruited? They didn't care about Chana's kids and laughed at Balat in WoK when he proposed himself as a replacement for his late father in their schemes.

I would say they were interested in his wife. I still think that Kelsier and Ghostbloods were involved in killing Chana in some way as Kelsier said to Gavilar that they already put things in motion that would bring the Desolation. What is a better way to start a Desolation than sending a Herald to Braize to break?

 

6 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

It was not due only to Chana, there was an Unmade influencing them after her death. WoB:

  Reveal hidden contents

Quote

Questioner

There's a scene where you can see from the perspective of Nan Balat, Shallan's brother, where he's maiming an insect. It's described as soothing his aches. Is that in any way related to how Kaladin feels depressed and down during the Weeping even in his early childhood?

Brandon Sanderson

What's happening to Nan Balat is magically enhanced. What's happening to Kaladin is mostly just chemical depression. Be he is really too young to be diagnosed with depression during some of these events, but he's got the seeds in there. So Kaladin is not magically depressed. Kaladin is just legitimatly a person with depression. Nan Balat... What's up with him is... ah... being exaggerated by certain forces moving in on Roshar. (last bit is a bit indistinctive)

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

Quote

Questioner

Was Shallan's family, during her childhood, being influenced by an Unmade?

Brandon Sanderson

Um, yes.

Questioner

Was it the corrupting--

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO that, but yes, there is some external influence there. 

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

Expand  

 

We still do not know which one, or how - but it is likely the Ghostbloods were interested in Lin Davar because they were trying to figure out which Unmade and why it was active in that area. 

I wouldn't be surprised if that was because of Ishar, who by holding Odium's power corrupted other Heralds, enhancing their insanity, which affected Chana, which was transferred through her Spirit Web to her kids on a smaller scale. 

[Isilel]

14 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

But the way Brandon wrote it, Chana did nothing and assumed it would work

 

Maybe she did something, but we just don't know it yet? And as one of the larger pieces of Honor around, her very Intent, if strong enough, may have had an effect. I don't think that Shallan dying first would have changed anything, but Chana getting trapped in a gem or anihilated by anti-stormlight might lead to her tie to the Oathpact latching onto Shallan instead of remaining vacant, like with Jezrien, IMHO.

Yea, the kids should have something extra, apart from the mental illness, but the boys don't seem to. I was very disappointed when they were quickly whisked away in RoW and we didn't get any meaningful interaction between them and Shallan or additional insight into their characters. Of course, Chana's identity may have been the reason to postpone her confession to them, but then, there were a number of reveals in the SA that I feel should have happened on-screen and significantly affected the characters, but largely petered out instead. The latest one being the Kholins learning about Gavilar's pursuits at the end of his life.  I have been waiting for it since Amaram's enticing hints in late WoR, but alas...

 

13 hours ago, alder24 said:

I would say they were interested in his wife. I still think that Kelsier and Ghostbloods were involved in killing Chana in some way as Kelsier said to Gavilar that they already put things in motion that would bring the Desolation.

 

His wife was already dead by the time he became involved with the Ghostbloods. And if they were just keeping tabs on the family in case Chana contacted them upon her return, they would have accepted Balat in Lin's place. But they didn't. I don't see how they could have been involved in killing Chana, since we now finally saw what actually happened. 

But as to the steps they took, in Vasher's and Lift's Interludes Axindweth had both Mraize's Aviar and the one he had captured together with Lift after killing Gereh. Clearly, she was a trusted associate of the Ghostbloods at the very least. She had also brought Ulim to Roshar and should have provided more voidspren during the Treaty signing. IMHO, those were the "things in motion" that Kelsier alluded to.

And it weren't just Chana's boys, who got much worse after her death, which should have removed Odium's influence from the family,  but also Lin. There had to be more than just her blighting them.

@Treamayne:

But if they were interested in an Unmade settled in the area, why reject Balat?

 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Isilel

[Treamayne]

26 minutes ago, Isilel said:

But if they were interested in an Unmade settled in the area, why reject Balat?

Why assume it was still present after Lin's death? Nergaoul was moving from Alethkar to Veden, Moelach from Kharbranth to somewhere (maybe the west). By the time Shallan has gone to Kharbranth and Balat makes his offer, it's only 2-3 months until the Everstorm (not that they knew precisely, but they knew the Desolation was close and the unmade were moving). It seemed to be the years between Chana and Lin's deaths that were "influenced." Of course correlation doe not equal causation - it's just a guess that the Unmade may have piqued their interest in a minor backwater Veden house. It could just as easilt been Wit showing up to the Fare with news of Heleran and using allomancy all-over-the-place; or any one of a dozen other minor details.

[MightyFishMaster]

On 12/30/2024 at 12:34 PM, Isilel said:

I still don't quite understand why Shallan's full brothers got nothing except for their mental problems from their Herald mother.

 

Wikim could maybe have some Fortune abilities since he says,

Quote

You can't fix us, Shallan. Jushu will destroy himself. It's only a matter of time. Balat is becoming Father, step by step. Malise spends one night in two weeping. Father will kill her one of these days, like he did Mother.

And Lin does kill Malise.

And then he later gives Shallan the blackbane he was keeping for himself be cause he "felt it was right" for Shallan to have it.  And years later she uses it to poison her father.

[elihaun]

I think the Devar brothers have more to them.  Balat would be perfect at interrogation, Wikim at planning, and Jushu at fitting into a crowd.  I think the ghostbloods didn't 'rescue' the Devar brothers, I think they recruited them.  

[TheHidelSubldies]

I

5 hours ago, elihaun said:

I think the Devar brothers have more to them. 

Here's hoping you're right. I found it extremely off-putting how they just faded out of the story. They had one interaction with Shallan (it's almost too generous to call it that) at the end of OB. Then through the length of RoW and WaT they were put in the background and even there they were so scarce I honestly thought Brandon forgot about them.

It would have been interesting to see them process the fact that Shallan was a radiant now. Did that change how they interacted with her? Did it impact them even a little?
How would they have attempted to find their place in this changing world? How are Balat and Eylita managing all this? Did any of the even interact with anyone other than Shallan. I Imagine Adolin would probably want to forge a good relationship with his wife's family, yet the way that it was handled, I didn't think Adolin even knew Shallan's family even exists. It's been a while since I read RoW. Has anyone apart from Shallan interacted with her brothers and Eylita?

I guess if Brandon has something in store for them in future books then that's at the least some explanation but even so I found it extremely unnatural for them to be relegated to being little more than a bargaining tool for the Ghostbloods and an excuse for Shallan to justify her continued association with them.
 

[Isilel]

20 minutes ago, TheHidelSubldies said:

I found it extremely unnatural for them to be relegated to being little more than a bargaining tool for the Ghostbloods and an excuse for Shallan to justify her continued association with them.

 

Couldn't agree more. I also expected Shallan finally confessing the truth of their mother's death to them to be an important step both in her and their development, but alas...

I am currently re-reading WoK and it feels to me like Sanderson doesn't develop and maintain background characters and allow them to be occasionally useful as much as I'd like. Which ultimately leads to the protagonists being too inwardly focussed, because there are so few other defined personalities that they can meaningfully interact with.

[Nitpicking]

6 hours ago, Isilel said:

I am currently re-reading WoK and it feels to me like Sanderson doesn't develop and maintain background characters and allow them to be occasionally useful as much as I'd like. Which ultimately leads to the protagonists being too inwardly focussed, because there are so few other defined personalities that they can meaningfully interact with.

Sebarial and Palona are perhaps the most interesting characters, period, the Stormlight Archive. They barely exist now, because the story is about gods and only gods.

I might be using hyperbole there.

[Light In the Darkness]

7 hours ago, Isilel said:

I am currently re-reading WoK and it feels to me like Sanderson doesn't develop and maintain background characters and allow them to be occasionally useful as much as I'd like

I think part of this is probably him trying to avoid the series becoming like Wheel of Time. He already has to offload major characters' minor stories into novelas to keep the books small enough to be physically possible and still give everyone the stories they need for the plot we have; the fading into the background might be a bit of a way to help the world feel much bigger than he has the time and space to describe. I do wonder if the brothers or Sebarial and Pelona or any of the other side characters we've met will become more relevant in future books; the absence of the brothers in particular is a bit odd. I'm sure they'll turn up in an important place in the back half.

[Nitpicking]

The thing is, reader tastes differ. I find, say, Kmakl or Hesina far more interesting than Taravangian. Notice who aren't in WaT?