KaladinWorldsinger Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 The God Beyond is a god that may or may not exist in the cosmere. Brandon made this God because he wanted a legit, non physical, ethereal god that is an object of pure faith. An atheist could see Adonalsium and go, that's not God. Dalinar see Nohadon in his visions because he is sent by the God Beyond or created in Dalinar's mind. There will never be a definite answer because the God Beyond is an object of pure faith. Nohadon is himself just a wise guy that Dalinar admires. Let's remember that Dalinar heard Evi in Oathbringer and we know she wasn't special (oof that sounds awful to say ) 13
GamerMilo Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 I read it this way as well. I guess Nohadon is the Cosmere's Tom Bombadil. We are so used to Sanderson having a well thought-out reason for everything, that such an unexplained character immediatly sets our theorist brains on fire. I think WaT was the Cosmere book where the 'pure faith' aspects of the Cosmere were brought to the forefront the most. The Beyond, Dalinar's faith in the God Beyond (and the coupled epigraphs pulled from in-universe OB), and lastly Nohadon as a manifestation of Dalinar's faith or inner worldview. Upon ascending, Dalinar's crazy, intuitive usage of spiritual aspects like Connection and Identity has reached levels beyond a mortal mind, and Nohadon could either be the God Beyond, or some kind of Blackthorn-Unmade collection of Connections and memories that form a Nohadon-like cognitive shadow. In that regard, what exactly are people in the visions? Are they cognitive shadows? They are formed from pure investiture by the Spiritual realm. 1
Nitpicking Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 36 minutes ago, GamerMilo said: In that regard, what exactly are people in the visions? Are they cognitive shadows? They are formed from pure investiture by the Spiritual realm. The characters seem to believe that they're basically simulations, a la deepfakes. The characters are very often wrong, of course. 1
+Child of Hodor Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 I think Nohadon was just a guy that helped found the Knight's Radiant and wrote a book on leadership that Dalinar made his entire personality . He shows up for Dalinar because he's important to Dalinar and who Dalinar has been looking to for advice this whole time. As to the mechanics of it my guess is it's this: Quote Argent Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free iInvestiture? Brandon Sanderson Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the Spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that Spiritweb in the Spiritual Realm. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/183/#e3910 Kaladin got to talk to his long dead brother via Dalinar Connecting him to something. The Nohadon thing is probably similar. 2
Soccorro Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 Well, Nohadon provided information that Dalinar couldn’t know so he can’t be just Dalinar’s imagination 1
alder24 Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 5 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: The God Beyond is a god that may or may not exist in the cosmere. Brandon made this God because he wanted a legit, non physical, ethereal god that is an object of pure faith. An atheist could see Adonalsium and go, that's not God. Dalinar see Nohadon in his visions because he is sent by the God Beyond or created in Dalinar's mind. There will never be a definite answer because the God Beyond is an object of pure faith. Nohadon is himself just a wise guy that Dalinar admires. Let's remember that Dalinar heard Evi in Oathbringer and we know she wasn't special (oof that sounds awful to say ) Oh no, what have you done? That's the most insane theory I've ever read on this forum! I can't believe this 1 hour ago, Soccorro said: Well, Nohadon provided information that Dalinar couldn’t know so he can’t be just Dalinar’s imagination But investiture and Honor knows this: Spoiler Gordon Kelsch Can Dalinar permanently bring someone back from the Spiritual Realm? Brandon Sanderson No. In fact, whether or not the voices he is hearing are legitimately voices from Beyond the Spiritual Realm, or if they're a manifestation much like the visions that the Stormfather creates, where Dalinar's desire for certain things is basically creating... So when Dalinar goes into the visions, what's going on there is: these are not people with autonomy that he is interacting with. These are Investiture manifesting a basic AI that is able to adapt, cause Investiture kind of can do this. Dalinar would argue, "Yes, that's the case except for when I actually met Nohadon. That character felt different, that felt like the real Nohadon stretching through the Spiritual Realm and actually interacting." Jasnah would say, "No, that's because, Dalinar, you have such, in your mind, a hope and desire to see Nohadon, he's this mythological figure in your head, that basically the Stormfather's knowledge of who he actually was was creating this much more animated puppet that was more like actually how Nohadon was, but was based on knowledge of the spren and the Investiture that you're interacting with." And Dalinar would say, "I heard Evi's voice." Jasnah would say, "You heard the Investiture coming to life and speaking with her voice the things you needed to hear. And it wasn't that the Stormfather was like, 'He needs to hear this, I'm going to create this fake.' But it's instead your relationship with this magical force that does take on life of its own, manifesting this thing." Which one it is, I do not answer. Both are, I consider, equally valid interpretations of the text, and equally valid interpretations of the magic system. Once someone is passed into the Beyond, there is no force that can bring them back, according to people's understanding of the magic system. There is even the argument that Cognitive Shadows are not the person. That the Cognitive Shadow is indeed a spren with the memories and an imprint of the person's personality that becomes self aware and continued on living that person. It's kind of the same question that arises in Star Trek. When you are ripped apart and rebuilt piece by piece with the transporter, some people in Star Trek do not believe you are becoming the same person again. You are then a different individual who has been cloned from the person and had the memories attached. Functionally, in the narrative, for the reader, it's the same. Is it the same soul or not? That question is answered differently by different people in the Cosmere. There are equally valid interpretations from the reader. You get to decide, basically. You get to decide, just like if there's a story where a person's brain is uploaded to a computer, you get to decide: is that the same person? Because we can't do that, we don't know. Is that the exact same individual, or is that a computer simulation of that person, where the person has died? That's what a Cognitive Shadow essentially is, but using Cosmere physics instead of theoretical science fiction physics. YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) Spoiler Forger (paraphrased) In Stormlight 5, we know they are looking for Ba-Ado-Mishram and some of it will take place in the Spiritual Realm, where we know that time is odd and somewhat condensed. Does that mean that we could have an interaction with Lopen and Wayne? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) It could be possible. But it would be an imitation, like a puppet. That'd be a bad idea, crossing the streams like that. Forger (paraphrased) So the same with someone like Elend? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yeah, so the Spiritual Realm would be trying to create them. Making them what they should be, but it wouldn't be them. Like the visions. You could interact with them, but it wouldn't be them. Forger (paraphrased) So the SR is using raw investiture to create them? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yep. Forger (paraphrased) So since they are like the visions, could one replay them over and over? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) They could. FanX 2024 (Sept. 28, 2024) 2
Soccorro Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 17 minutes ago, alder24 said: But investiture and Honor knows this: Reading his answers makes me wonder what that blackthorn nonsense really is and why Odium’s cannot summon an army of blackthorns, heralds, ancient radiants, etc from SP. BS opened Pandora’s box, there’s no rules anymore, anything can happen via SP shenanigans 1
TwinStorm He/Him Posted December 17, 2024 Posted December 17, 2024 14 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: The God Beyond is a god that may or may not exist in the cosmere. Brandon made this God because he wanted a legit, non physical, ethereal god that is an object of pure faith. An atheist could see Adonalsium and go, that's not God. Dalinar see Nohadon in his visions because he is sent by the God Beyond or created in Dalinar's mind. There will never be a definite answer because the God Beyond is an object of pure faith. Nohadon is himself just a wise guy that Dalinar admires. Let's remember that Dalinar heard Evi in Oathbringer and we know she wasn't special (oof that sounds awful to say ) LOL REAL
NameIess Posted December 18, 2024 Posted December 18, 2024 13 hours ago, Soccorro said: Reading his answers makes me wonder what that blackthorn nonsense really is and why Odium’s cannot summon an army of blackthorns, heralds, ancient radiants, etc from SP. BS opened Pandora’s box, there’s no rules anymore, anything can happen via SP shenanigans Probably because most ancient Radiants haven’t been connected to their real counterparts like Dalinar did.
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