Nohadon

[Nitpicking]

Does anyone else think that the Nohadon who Dalinar meets in the vision is Frost? The story goes out of its way to remind us that dragons have human forms. He acts, looks, and even talks quite a bit like Frost from Dragonsteel Prime. And, just for fun, why did Brandon choose this book to canonize Dragonsteel in? Words of Brandon say that dragons have worshipers, who reach out to them for help with controlling their emotions. In a reading, Brandon let out a story fragment where Frost spends most of his time helping worshipers, in fact. This is also where temu keks get canonized, and Hoid is talking to a dragon repeatedly through this book.

Thoughts?

Came to me while typing this: Hoid's relationship with Valor is or was bad. Valor's Vessel is or was a dragon. Could Medalantorius, the original Vessel, be Frost's sister, and thus Starling be the child of Medalantorius and Midius? (She calls Frost "Uncle".) And they broke up? Hoid is admittedly bad at relationships. I believe there's a WoB that Hoid has children.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Nitpicking said:

Does anyone else think that the Nohadon who Dalinar meets in the vision is Frost? The story goes out of its way to remind us that dragons have human forms. He acts, looks, and even talks quite a bit like Frost from Dragonsteel Prime. And, just for fun, why did Brandon choose this book to canonize Dragonsteel in? Words of Brandon say that dragons have worshipers, who reach out to them for help with controlling their emotions. In a reading, Brandon let out a story fragment where Frost spends most of his time helping worshipers, in fact. This is also where temu keks get canonized, and Hoid is talking to a dragon repeatedly through this book.

Thoughts?

Came to me while typing this: Hoid's relationship with Valor is or was bad. Valor's Vessel is or was a dragon. Could Medalantorius, the original Vessel, be Frost's sister, and thus Starling be the child of Medalantorius and Midius? (She calls Frost "Uncle".) And they broke up? Hoid is admittedly bad at relationships. I believe there's a WoB that Hoid has children.

I don't think so. Both Rayse and Taravangian didn't recognize him as Frost and said he died. They knew Frost, they would have recognized him if that was him and we know Frost didn't die. Moreover, Frost is a member of the 17th Shard and believes in the policy of non-intervention. Talking to Dalinar is intervening. WaT ch 122:

Quote

NOHADON’S BOOK. YES … IT HAD BEEN CENTURIES SINCE THAT MAN HAD DIED. SUCH A CURIOUS INDIVIDUAL. PERHAPS I SHOULD HAVE INSISTED THAT HE ACCEPT IMMORTALITY, IF ONLY TO STUDY HIM LONGER …

OB ch 118:

Quote

Dalinar stumbled backward. Lightning. That had been lightning. Had it struck him?
No. It had somehow struck only the book. Burned pages fluttered around him, singed and smoldering. It had been blasted right from his hands.
Odium shook his head. “The words of a man long dead, long failed.”

 

[Nitpicking]

21 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I don't think so. Both Rayse and Taravangian didn't recognize him as Frost and said he died. They knew Frost, they would have recognized him if that was him and we know Frost didn't die. Moreover, Frost is a member of the 17th Shard and believes in the policy of non-intervention. Talking to Dalinar is intervening. WaT ch 122:

I said "the Nohadon who Dalinar meets". I don't think that's the real Nohadon. He even coyly suggests that he isn't.
 

Quote

 

"... Who are you, really?"

"Perhaps merely a construction of your own mind," he said, "Or maybe I'm actually Nohadon."

 

Wind and Truth, chapter 142.

It might be worth mentioning a Dragonsteel Prime spoiler:

Spoiler

Frost is apparently not supposed to interfere in DP either, but he does anyway. He's a reverse of Taravangian, a hypocrite who can't resist helping people.

Edited December 16, 2024 by Nitpicking
Forgot to add something.

[alder24]

26 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

I said "the Nohadon who Dalinar meets". I don't think that's the real Nohadon. He even coyly suggests that he isn't.

I agree, it's a vision where investiture became Nohadon. At this point I doubt Nohadon is alive and is someone special (though it's still possible, those visions were weird). It was all a construct made out of Connections and investiture - just like Tien was in Kaladin's vision. I think a better question would be if that was Dalinar who accidentally made those visions in the time of need, or did someone else sent him them, just like he sent a vision to Kaladin.

Spoiler

Gordon Kelsch

Can Dalinar permanently bring someone back from the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact, whether or not the voices he is hearing are legitimately voices from Beyond the Spiritual Realm, or if they're a manifestation much like the visions that the Stormfather creates, where Dalinar's desire for certain things is basically creating... So when Dalinar goes into the visions, what's going on there is: these are not people with autonomy that he is interacting with. These are Investiture manifesting a basic AI that is able to adapt, cause Investiture kind of can do this.

Dalinar would argue, "Yes, that's the case except for when I actually met Nohadon. That character felt different, that felt like the real Nohadon stretching through the Spiritual Realm and actually interacting." Jasnah would say, "No, that's because, Dalinar, you have such, in your mind, a hope and desire to see Nohadon, he's this mythological figure in your head, that basically the Stormfather's knowledge of who he actually was was creating this much more animated puppet that was more like actually how Nohadon was, but was based on knowledge of the spren and the Investiture that you're interacting with." And Dalinar would say, "I heard Evi's voice." Jasnah would say, "You heard the Investiture coming to life and speaking with her voice the things you needed to hear. And it wasn't that the Stormfather was like, 'He needs to hear this, I'm going to create this fake.' But it's instead your relationship with this magical force that does take on life of its own, manifesting this thing." Which one it is, I do not answer. Both are, I consider, equally valid interpretations of the text, and equally valid interpretations of the magic system.

Once someone is passed into the Beyond, there is no force that can bring them back, according to people's understanding of the magic system. There is even the argument that Cognitive Shadows are not the person. That the Cognitive Shadow is indeed a spren with the memories and an imprint of the person's personality that becomes self aware and continued on living that person. It's kind of the same question that arises in Star Trek. When you are ripped apart and rebuilt piece by piece with the transporter, some people in Star Trek do not believe you are becoming the same person again. You are then a different individual who has been cloned from the person and had the memories attached. Functionally, in the narrative, for the reader, it's the same. Is it the same soul or not? That question is answered differently by different people in the Cosmere. There are equally valid interpretations from the reader. You get to decide, basically. You get to decide, just like if there's a story where a person's brain is uploaded to a computer, you get to decide: is that the same person? Because we can't do that, we don't know. Is that the exact same individual, or is that a computer simulation of that person, where the person has died? That's what a Cognitive Shadow essentially is, but using Cosmere physics instead of theoretical science fiction physics.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

[sigzilch]

2 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Could Medalantorius, the original Vessel, be Frost's sister, and thus Starling be the child of Medalantorius and Midius? (She calls Frost "Uncle".) And they broke up? Hoid is admittedly bad at relationships. I believe there's a WoB that Hoid has children.

Ohhh man, would be incredibly funny and equally Hoid-ish to consider his own kid to be the same kind of relationship as an apprentice

[Smye]

4 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

I believe there's a WoB that Hoid has children.

Um, what? Do you have the WoB handy? All I can find on the topic are RAFOs, and I'd love to read a WoB where he answers this.

[Nitpicking]

1 hour ago, Smye said:

Um, what? Do you have the WoB handy? All I can find on the topic are RAFOs, and I'd love to read a WoB where he answers this.

It would seem that I was just remembering wrong. Sorry.

[Smye]

1 hour ago, Nitpicking said:

It would seem that I was just remembering wrong. Sorry.

Dang! That would really have been something...

[TheOtherDave]

I thought it was that Hoid could have kids, but whether or not he did was the RAFO.

Maybe I’m misremembering too

[RedBlue]

Tanavast’s POV explicitly states that the real, original Nohadon is dead, but Dalinar was definitely talking to somebody who is self-aware and has Nohadon’s memories (at least to some extent).

I think Tanavast and/or Honor created a sort of spren using Nohadon’s legacy as a template — a bit like how Retribution created the Blackthorn — to keep baby Honor company in the Spiritual Realm, and that’s who Dalinar spoke with.

[mattstocum]

38 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

Tanavast’s POV explicitly states that the real, original Nohadon is dead,

I'm not sure if we should take that as 100% settled. Todium managed to hide an entire city population in the Spiritual Realm when Cultivation was distracted. It's possible someone snuck Nohadon away while Honor was moping.

[Nitpicking]

13 minutes ago, mattstocum said:

I'm not sure if we should take that as 100% settled. Todium managed to hide an entire city population in the Spiritual Realm when Cultivation was distracted. It's possible someone snuck Nohadon away while Honor was moping.

I have my doubts. Taravanagian was so emphatic about these being the real, actual people that I'm assuming they're spren he made to fake his family and citizens. He's hugely dishonest with himself.

[spootime]

54 minutes ago, RedBlue said:

Tanavast’s POV explicitly states that the real, original Nohadon is dead, but Dalinar was definitely talking to somebody who is self-aware and has Nohadon’s memories (at least to some extent).

I think Tanavast and/or Honor created a sort of spren using Nohadon’s legacy as a template — a bit like how Retribution created the Blackthorn — to keep baby Honor company in the Spiritual Realm, and that’s who Dalinar spoke with.

Tanavast says about Nohadon: "... YES … IT HAD BEEN CENTURIES SINCE THAT MAN HAD DIED. SUCH A CURIOUS INDIVIDUAL. PERHAPS I SHOULD HAVE INSISTED THAT HE ACCEPT IMMORTALITY...") 

I think your theory is plausible, but the above reads strangely if he did save a backup copy of Nohadon. 

 

[RedBlue]

21 minutes ago, mattstocum said:

Todium managed to hide an entire city population in the Spiritual Realm when Cultivation was distracted. It's possible someone snuck Nohadon away while Honor was moping.

Fair point, and it would be fairly on-brand for Cultivation to stash an elderly Nohadon away as part of some long-term plan to deal with Honor.

 

2 minutes ago, spootime said:

Tanavast says about Nohadon: "... YES … IT HAD BEEN CENTURIES SINCE THAT MAN HAD DIED. SUCH A CURIOUS INDIVIDUAL. PERHAPS I SHOULD HAVE INSISTED THAT HE ACCEPT IMMORTALITY...") 

I think your theory is plausible, but the above reads strangely if he did save a backup copy of Nohadon. 

 

I’m not suggesting Tanavast had a backup copy at that point in time. I’m suggesting he made one later, since Nohadon’s legacy would be around in the Spiritual Realm long after the real one had passed on.

[Nitpicking]

BTW, this whole "OK, he's dead, but I can still make him a character" thing with the Blackthorn is really off-putting to me. Brandon promised to let people be permadead, dammit. Up next: the Lord Ruler returns! And Gavilar!

[BridgeBoi]

The lord ruler being back would be either really terrible or really awesome (Kelsier rematch?) It's never going to happen though.

For a long time my favorite cracktheory was that Gavilar would return and be Odium's champion against Dalinar (didn't happen but would be much better than child champion.)