Is Kaladin a Bondsmith?

[just1ndc]

Kaladin is bonded to Syl who has apparently replaced the Stormfather for accepting oaths  and because of that bond she followed him to Braize. We also know The Wind is also on Braize, which implies she was bonded enough to Kaladin to also go along with them doesn't it? 

Renarin's vision in ch 30 describes the postlude pretty much exactly shows the postlude scene with 2 people with blue skin which is for sure  Syl and The Wind. 

Quote

“When were you created, Sibling?” Jasnah asked.
“Some six thousand years ago, when the Stones wanted a legacy in the form of a child of Honor and Cultivation. Back when Bondsmiths bonded not to spren, but to the ancient forces, left by gods.”
“And the Stormfather?”
“Soon before me.”

from this quote we know the older bondsmiths connected directly The Wind, Stones, and Night before they started bonding with Spren instead. 

between Syl's new upgrade and Kaladin's new connection with The Wind, does anyone think he might start developing some bondsmith abilities in the back half of Stormlight? 

 

[QuantumHarmonix he/him]

I think it is possible that with Dalinar revoking all of Honors oaths all the surges may now be available. It sounds like when they were on Ashen those that would become the Heralds had access to all the surges and were only limited by their oaths with Honor. 

[alder24]

12 hours ago, just1ndc said:

Renarin's vision in ch 30 describes the postlude pretty much exactly shows the postlude scene with 2 people with blue skin which is for sure  Syl and The Wind. 

There was only one person with blue skin in Renarin's vision. We know from the end that Syl and Nale's spren are there, that's 12. The Wind is not with them, but she might be able to visit their vision, which is in SR and she was able to talk to Dalinar when he was in visions of the past. WaT ch 30:

Quote

The fourth window was, strangely, a bright green field with distant figures standing in it. The grass didn’t flee from them, so perhaps they’d been standing there a long time. He counted … twelve? He looked to Renarin, who reached up and rested a hand beside the window.
[...]

“Humans,” Rlain said. “They’re all human, I think. This one might be a Horneater, and this one Makabaki … And this one—what are those humans with the blue skin?”
“Those are the Natans,” Renarin said. “Unless you’re talking about the Aimians, who aren’t humans, but neither are quite as blue as the woman in this picture.” He hesitated, squinting at the distant woman in a vivid blue skirt, with white hair and blue skin.

WaT Postlude:

Quote

Three of the figures in the group were wrong. That was proof. Who was that soldier in Kholin blue? That figure he couldn’t quite make out? That was Nale’s spren, he supposed. But that woman with white-blue hair, long and flowing? She didn’t belong here.

 

Kaladin is not bonded to the Wind, but is still bonded to Syl. Whatever happened to Syl will probably influence their bond. I'm not sure if Syl is capable of forming a Bondsmith bond yet, she might just replace Stormfather in small capacity and maybe grow larger in the future. We don't really know what happened to Syl so everything is possible.

 

12 hours ago, just1ndc said:

from this quote we know the older bondsmiths connected directly The Wind, Stones, and Night before they started bonding with Spren instead. 

No, the quote doesn't say ancient Bondsmith were bonded with Old Magic spren, it says they were bonded directly to the powers of creation. Heralds were slowly developing skills like this before Aharietiam. WaT ch 120:

Quote

I HAD THE HERALDS. AND THEY, MORE AND MORE, WERE ABLE TO DRAW ON THE POWERS OF ROSHAR ITSELF INSTEAD OF JUST MY SURGES. I DID NOT UNDERSTAND WHY OR HOW, BUT I DID NOT WISH TO SEEM WEAK BY ADMITTING THAT FACT.

[Master Silver]

I think I remember from right before Honor is taken up by Taravangian,  some parts of Honor split off. One of them makes the Honor spear of Kaladin. Another seemingly changed Syl. This means that there are 11 slivers maybe the right word is splinters of Honor that are left. Did Honor have a pool? or was it just the Stormfather? What happens to all the Stormlight that was on Roshar after the Stormfather died. Does all of it go back to Retribution? If there was any remaining after the Shards combined where does that stormlight go? Syl? The honor blades?

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

I think I remember from right before Honor is taken up by Taravangian,  some parts of Honor split off. One of them makes the Honor spear of Kaladin. Another seemingly changed Syl. This means that there are 11 slivers maybe the right word is splinters of Honor that are left. Did Honor have a pool? or was it just the Stormfather? What happens to all the Stormlight that was on Roshar after the Stormfather died. Does all of it go back to Retribution? If there was any remaining after the Shards combined where does that stormlight go? Syl? The honor blades?

Yes, a few pieces left Honor, one certainly created Kal's Honorsprear, others possibly invested Kaladin and Syl (no confirmation). Honor did not have a Shardpool, his perpendicularity was unstable, random and in motion. Jasnah used it in WoR to return to PR.

All Stormlight was reabsorbed by Retribution immediately after his Ascension. It's gone, taken from every gemstone and every person and animal holding it.

[Master Silver]

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, a few pieces left Honor, one certainly created Kal's Honorsprear, others possibly invested Kaladin and Syl (no confirmation). Honor did not have a Shardpool, his perpendicularity was unstable, random and in motion. Jasnah used it in WoR to return to PR.

All Stormlight was reabsorbed by Retribution immediately after his Ascension. It's gone, taken from every gemstone and every person and animal holding it.

Do you think that once the new Shard is formed, it still has a claim on the investiture of Honor it didn't absorb? For instance, the Honor blades. We know Taravangian cannot touch the spren which are also a large amount of investiture. 

[alder24]

1 minute ago, Master Silver said:

Do you think that once the new Shard is formed, it still has a claim on the investiture of Honor it didn't absorb? For instance, the Honor blades. We know Taravangian cannot touch the spren which are also a large amount of investiture. 

Yes. He wanted to do it, but reforging the Oathpact protected them all from being reabsorbed. As long as the Oathpact stands unbroken, Retribution can't absorb spren, Heralds and Honorblades.

Quote

“Like the spren, we bear a distinctive part of Honor’s power in us. Retribution will want to reclaim it. Prepare yourself, Nale. This is our end.”
[...]
A ring of ten, in their strength, could bind Retribution in some small way. Could it not?
“… Yes,” Ishar said. “We bear Honor’s power. Much as our Connection to Odium helped us bind him and his spren long ago, our Connection to Honor could let us bind Retribution. In a small way.” The elderly Herald wiped blood from his mouth. “We could maybe prevent him from taking the spren to himself. We could seal away that part of his power, weaken him. Yes … Yes, that could work.”

 

[just1ndc]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

No, the quote doesn't say ancient Bondsmith were bonded with Old Magic spren, it says they were bonded directly to the powers of creation. Heralds were slowly developing skills like this before Aharietiam.

I agree that he heralds were gaining extra abilities that Honor didn't intend or expect, but I think thats separate from the Bondsmiths connecting with the Old magic Gods because the heralds never gained one another's surges that we're aware of. 

Quote

 

“When was the Nightwatcher created?” Jasnah whispered to Ivory. “We call her the Old Magic, but how long has she been around? When did Cultivation form her?”
Before Ivory could answer, a voice whispered back from a nearby air vent. “The Nightwatcher came from the Night, as the Stormfather came from the Wind. Though, when I was young, the Wind was different. So very different.”
“When were you created, Sibling?” Jasnah asked.
“Some six thousand years ago, when the Stones wanted a legacy in the form of a child of Honor and Cultivation. Back when Bondsmiths bonded not to spren, but to the ancient forces, left by gods.”
“And the Stormfather?”
“Soon before me.”

“That’s inaccurate though,” Jasnah said. “Dalinar speaks of the Stormfather having existed when people first came to Roshar, seven thousand years ago. The Stormfather remembers that event, and detailed the timing.”
“It has been confusing,” the Sibling said, “to learn of all that has happened while I slept. I knew the Stormfather when he was young. I, formed from the Stone, which was the sibling of Wind and Night. The Night left. Few loved her, or even spoke of her, and it seems Mother replaced her with a being of some of the same essence. A new creature, unconnected to anyone’s perception.”

 

the context from the convo that gave me this idea pretty much states that the Stormfather replaced the Wind, The Sibling replaced the Stones, and the Nightwatcher replaced The Night for taking Bondsmiths. The three forces that Adonalsium left on Roshar before the shattering. 

Quote

“Nale broke down weeping as he took Szeth’s hand, but then stayed on his knees—clinging to it, wetting the broken ground of the monastery with his tears. Two figures appeared. Syl on one side, 12124 on the other.
The final figure, Nale’s spren, emerged as a rip in the sky nearby. Not in the shape of a person. Then it streaked off and vanished.”

This scene also made me think that Nale's Spren broke their bond and left. The High spren also have very distinct looks that should be pretty recognizable. The other figure would most likely be The Wind since it doesn't look like an High Spren. I was wrong earlier about there being two people with blue skin in Renarin's vision tho, thank you for catching that. 

[alder24]

28 minutes ago, just1ndc said:

I agree that he heralds were gaining extra abilities that Honor didn't intend or expect, but I think thats separate from the Bondsmiths connecting with the Old magic Gods because the heralds never gained one another's surges that we're aware of. 

the context from the convo that gave me this idea pretty much states that the Stormfather replaced the Wind, The Sibling replaced the Stones, and the Nightwatcher replaced The Night for taking Bondsmiths. The three forces that Adonalsium left on Roshar before the shattering. 

I still disagree with this interpretation, the Old Magic entities are still spren and the Sibling specifically said Bondsmith were not bonded with spren back then so that excludes the Wind and others. Fundamental forces of creation are forces left by gods as they arise from them directly. We saw in Honor's flashback that he gave powers to Nale on Ashyn and that's something that those ancient Bondsmith were doing, but instead of getting powers directly from Honor's hands, those Surges were beginning to manifest naturally on Roshar and people were able to access them without any bond.

28 minutes ago, just1ndc said:

This scene also made me think that Nale's Spren broke their bond and left. The High spren also have very distinct looks that should be pretty recognizable. The other figure would most likely be The Wind since it doesn't look like an High Spren. I was wrong earlier about there being two people with blue skin in Renarin's vision tho, thank you for catching that. 

Nale's spren probably went back to report this to Ishar, as they all worked together on this plan. The Wind doesn't have a human form so it would be unlikely to appear in it there. We know that Nale's spren accompanied him on Braize previously so it makes sense it's him again. WaT ch 95:

Quote

“What you do, I have to do with you,” the spren explained. “Nale’s spren was always trapped with him on Braize, and subject to the pains that the enemy can inflict.”

And Nale's spren appeared later, after the quote you gave (which was ch 110), and talked to Aux when Szeth broke his bond with him. So he was still with Nale. WaT ch 135:

Quote

Nin’s spren appeared nearby, and Szeth’s spren reached out as if for help. The Herald’s spren shook its head. “How fitting, 12124. This is what happens when you give them too much power. Learn your lesson here, if you are ever allowed to speak oaths again. You have let yourself become an attendant to your human, an auxiliary to his will.”

[Megling]

On 12/14/2024 at 5:05 PM, alder24 said:

the Old Magic entities are still spren.

To me it sounds like how the Stormfather used to describe himself in the past as "more storm than spren", because he didn't have a mind yet,  no personality. He was just the concept of the storm created out of investiture. (Iirc he also describes himself in this time as more force than spren or something to that effect, but I can't remember exactly so don't quote me on it)

So by saying they bonded forces, the Sibling is saying that these bonds were so old that the bondsmith spren hadn't developed personalities yet, they were just forces.

[alder24]

52 minutes ago, Megling said:

To me it sounds like how the Stormfather used to describe himself in the past as "more storm than spren", because he didn't have a mind yet,  no personality. He was just the concept of the storm created out of investiture. (Iirc he also describes himself in this time as more force than spren or something to that effect, but I can't remember exactly so don't quote me on it)

So by saying they bonded forces, the Sibling is saying that these bonds were so old that the bondsmith spren hadn't developed personalities yet, they were just forces.

Except for the fact that the Wind was fully developed, fully sapient and was speaking to Dalinar in visions, like the one of the migration. She was a spren way before the first Bondsmiths appeared. WaT ch 43:

Quote

We see you, a soft voice, overlapping like a chorus, said in his ear. Man from another time. Woman from a tower reborn.
“What … what are you?” Navani asked.
We are the Wind, the voices said. Caretakers of this land. And you are…?
“Travelers,” Dalinar said. “Witnesses.”
Come to see the change, the Wind said. Ah … the arrival.
“It is soon?” Dalinar asked.
Very soon. Very soon. The Wind swirled around them. Ah … but you are of them. The humans. So you come to know your forefathers …
“Pardon,” Navani said, “but do you know this … is just a vision?”
We have always been, the Wind said. But no thing can remain as it always was. This place is a piece of time, and we see it, experience it. We also see now—and what we have become. We are quiet, in your time, and lose our voice.

[Dofurion]

Well, while I don't think Kaladin is directly bonded to the wind, I do think he's a Bondsmith now.
First we see that Syl, after the disintegration of the Stormfather, spontaneously changes her clothes (without her wishing it) for one of royal appearance. Later, when Kaladin takes the oath to become Herald, she is the one who accepts it (with her voice in capital letters). Finally when everything is done, Kaladin begins to attract Gloryspren's along with Windspren's.

These three facts seem enough to me to surmise that Syl became a Godspren. (And presumably her return brings with it the return of Stormlight)

[Master Silver]

On 12/16/2024 at 1:40 PM, Dofurion said:

Well, while I don't think Kaladin is directly bonded to the wind, I do think he's a Bondsmith now.
First we see that Syl, after the disintegration of the Stormfather, spontaneously changes her clothes (without her wishing it) for one of royal appearance. Later, when Kaladin takes the oath to become Herald, she is the one who accepts it (with her voice in capital letters). Finally when everything is done, Kaladin begins to attract Gloryspren's along with Windspren's.

These three facts seem enough to me to surmise that Syl became a Godspren. (And presumably her return brings with it the return of Stormlight)

I really like your line of reasoning. Also, the honor blades were supposed to give the Heralds a direct line to Honor. I can't remember where, but I thought the honor blades allowed the Heralds access to stormlight all the time. I can't remember if that is in the blades themselves or not. Also, are the honor blades more highly invested then the spren? So what does that mean? How much of the Shard Honor's power is in the spren and the Honor blades?

[alder24]

On 12/24/2024 at 2:56 AM, Master Silver said:

Also, the honor blades were supposed to give the Heralds a direct line to Honor. I can't remember where, but I thought the honor blades allowed the Heralds access to stormlight all the time. I can't remember if that is in the blades themselves or not.

Here:

Spoiler

Steeldancer

The Heralds, back before Honor died, were they directly powered by Honor?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You’ll find out more about that, but the Shardblades [pretty sure he means Honorblades here] were pieces of Honor’s soul that he gave them and direct access to his essence.

Steeldancer

Like Vin and Elend?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, a little like that. That’s why Honorblades don’t work like Shardblades do, like Radiants do.

Steeldancer

The second part of the question is, what would happen if they were directly powered by Honor and they were holding Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)

 

On 12/16/2024 at 8:40 PM, Dofurion said:

Finally when everything is done, Kaladin begins to attract Gloryspren's along with Windspren's.

Tbf, attracting Gloryspren after you just became a Herald is a very expected reaction - this is the most glorious moment anyone on Roshar could ever dream of. He literally became a demigod.

[Use the Falchion]

If we don't get to see Bondsmith-Herald-Fifth Ideal Windrunner Kaladin team up with a sane and Honorblade-wielding Taln in the back half, I'm going to RIOT. 

[OverlordBob999]

I think that symbolically, Kaladin becoming a Bondsmith would be very fitting (unless it causes him to cease being a Windrunner - curious though about the interactions with the double Adhesion maybe?), especially if Syl is replacing the Stormfather. Part of Kaladin's journey (I think) in the later books is learning to become more of a leader/healer and less of a soldier. Also, since Dalinar specifically asked Kaladin to replace him (as head of Urithiru) if he dies, this ties up really nicely. 

[Leuthie]

Kaladin is the Windrunner Herald. He should stay the Windrunner Herald.

[MagicMaggot]

Well, as a Windrunner adhesion is already one of his surges, would the idea be that Syl leveling up somehow allowed for him to do spiritual adhesion stuff? Or is it that Syl somehow gets three surges now, with new fun, potentially world-ending, interactions, that his new therapy group could coach him on?

[DSCrankshaw]

Personally, if we're going to get a new Bondsmith Herald, I'd rather it be Adolin, as he's all about making Connections, even without the Surges.

But I do agree that Syl seems to be gearing up to take the Stormfather's place, at least to some extent. 

[Dofurion]

2 hours ago, OverlordBob999 said:

I think that symbolically, Kaladin becoming a Bondsmith would be very fitting (unless it causes him to cease being a Windrunner - curious though about the interactions with the double Adhesion maybe?), especially if Syl is replacing the Stormfather. Part of Kaladin's journey (I think) in the later books is learning to become more of a leader/healer and less of a soldier. Also, since Dalinar specifically asked Kaladin to replace him (as head of Urithiru) if he dies, this ties up really nicely. 

Yes, and we can continue adding symbolism in the case that Kaladin has to pronounce the oaths of the Bondsmiths. Since in that case he would have pronounced 10 (1 Radiant + 4 Windrunner + 1 Herald + 4 Bondsmith).

2 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Kaladin is the Windrunner Herald. He should stay the Windrunner Herald.

Being a Herald with access to X surges doesn't exclude the possibility of becoming a Radiant of a different order. Ash's possible joining the Dustbringers has long been theorized.

[Leuthie]

14 minutes ago, Dofurion said:

Being a Herald with access to X surges doesn't exclude the possibility of becoming a Radiant of a different order. Ash's possible joining the Dustbringers has long been theorized.

I wasn't making a prediction. I was making a request.

[Darvys]

5 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Kaladin is the Windrunner Herald. He should stay the Windrunner Herald.

I would have agreed with you if their higher oaths had anything to do with leadership, but Sanderson decided to stick with protection to the point where the 5th just felt silly to me.

Kaladin isn't the Windrunner Herald, he's the Herald of Kings, the Ideals he swore are no longer sufficient in my view for the position he now holds, the parallels between him and Dalinar were so frequent I am certain he could instantly swear up to the 3rd Bondsmith Ideal and we could watch him evolve as a leader and discover the rest in step with Navani whom I expect to have a distinct perspective on leadership and unity which would ensure sufficient variety.

Honor deliberately invested Syl not only to preserve the Highstorms but also I think to ensure there would be a Bondsmith left on Roshar in case the Sibling and the Nightwatcher were also destroyed before the protections were set up. It makes sense to me for Kaladin to fill that role.

[rabidhexley]

5 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Kaladin is the Windrunner Herald. He should stay the Windrunner Herald.

Is there a reason you have this preference? I'd like it if he was something new. The hard limits on surge access are potentially gone now, and he could have additional abilities on top of Windrunning due to the evolution of Syl (godspren evolved from an honorspren).

 

I would also like Kaladin to still have Windrunning just because the wind and skies seemed to be very important to him and Syl and they have strong ties to them, so it'd feel kinda of weird for him to lose gravitation, but him just being a Windrunner after the hints about Syl would be disappointing.

 

Edit: His honorspear is also a brand-new thing. So it'd be a little lame if it was just a spear version of Jezrien's sword. Though perhaps he's a bondsmith that also has windrunning from the honorspear.

Edited January 9, 2025 by rabidhexley

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, Darvys said:

but Sanderson decided to stick with protection to the point where the 5th just felt silly to me.

Keep in mind that the Oaths are not in lock-step. Kaladin's Fifth oath was essentially the same as Teft's Third oath (because protecting himself was a hurdle Teft needed sooner and already recognized, while it was very hard for, and virtually unrecognized by, Kaladin until this book).

Spoiler

OB Ch 119:

Quote

Teft licked his lips, and spoke.

“I will protect those I hate. Even … even if the one I hate most … is … myself.”

Essentially boils down to protecting Teft from Teft.

Quote

Kaladin rested his hand comfortingly on Ishar’s shoulder, ignoring the hand at his throat, and spoke them.

“I will protect myself, so that I may continue to protect others.”

Essentially the same concept - different causes, different timing.

 

[Nitpicking]

On 1/9/2025 at 11:49 AM, Leuthie said:

Kaladin is the Windrunner Herald. He should stay the Windrunner Herald.

I understand that this is a preference, as you said, but consider: Syl becomes a godspren like the Stormfather. Being bonded to her means that he becomes a Bondsmith, if the old oath system is maintained.

Meanwhile he's still the Herald of Second Chances. Radiant and Herald status are separate.