logicless.bt Posted December 10, 2024 Posted December 10, 2024 I have extremely mixed feelings about Shards changing, and I wanted to open a space for people to talk about it. For as long as we've known about Shards, they've been immutable. Mistborn makes it clear that both absolute Ruin and absolute Preservation are awful outcomes for humanity -- Ruin ends in destruction and death, and Preservation results in a society unable to change, like the Lord Ruler's. Stormlight Archive expands on that with the exploration of oaths: it builds up the idea that holding yourself to your oaths is the pinnacle of nobility, then slowly deconstructs that idea. Any creature driven by Intent, whether it is Shard, spren, or Herald, is warped by their very unchanging nature and becomes a mindless thing. Stormlight Archive posits very effectively that change is necessary for growth. Why, then, is it a problem that we see Honor begin to change? Because the nature of the Cosmere is conflict between Shards of a monotheistic god, and the way that the Shattering is resolved is THE message of the series. If all Shards must be Splintered, the message is that humans need to take responsibility for themselves and act as autonomous beings free of godly intervention. If Adonalsium is reconstructed and perfect, the message is that God (and by extension humanity) needs diversity of experience and emotional capacity in order to rule or live perfectly, respectively. There's room for middle grounds, but those two directions are the way that the Cosmere seems to be heading. I don't Adonalsium to be reconstructed, or at least reconstructed into a perfect being, because both Mistborn and Stormlight imply that infinite power held by a fallible person is terrible for the world. Shardic Intent is exaggerated, yes, but it's also an inevitability. Whatever personality traits or rules of morality a mortal brings to godhood will inevitably -- given infinite power and infinite time -- become exaggerated infinitely. But if the gods themselves can learn to grow and change... well, yes, that's the theme of Stormlight, but it undermines the message of Shards. The message shifts away from "We as people need to embrace all experiences of life" or "We as people need to take responsibility for our lives" into "Our gods need to be better." I don't want the ultimate theme of the Cosmere to involve perfect gods. I understand that this is my own personal desire, and that as a Mormon, Sanderson is likely to have a much more kindly view of godhood than me. But if the final theme of the Cosmere is a message about godhood rather than a message about humanity, it prevents readers from taking inspiration from it into their own lives. I can read a novel about personal change on an individual level or accepting all emotions within myself and enact those lessons in my own life. A message about how GODS should change is ... inaccessible both to people like me outside of religious institutions AND to those within them, in my opinion. Few religions incorporate deity shifting as part as their core beliefs. The message "your god should be able to think and develop like a person" is either alternately ridiculous or dismissible, depending on whether the religion the reader holds has a Jesus-like figure. I might feel differently if the message becomes "you should demand basic humanity from your god," but I don't want to put words in Sanderson's mouth. How do you guys feel about it? 4
+Oltux72 he/him Posted December 11, 2024 Posted December 11, 2024 A valid concern to an extent. But this far it is not clear to which extent Shards can learn. Honor even now has different aspects reflected in the different orders. It is possible that there are hard limits on the extent to which a Shard can change. That it can grow to an extent, however, was always clear. It is the reason Odium created the Dor.
+mdross81 he/him Posted December 11, 2024 Posted December 11, 2024 41 minutes ago, logicless.bt said: A message about how GODS should change is ... inaccessible both to people like me outside of religious institutions AND to those within them, in my opinion. Few religions incorporate deity shifting as part as their core beliefs. Glad you made this thread because ironically enough your post on the reviews thread where you mentioned you didn’t like this aspect of WaT was the first thing I after adding a post saying I liked this element. But let me be clear, I agree with you in hoping that Brandon doesn’t go down this road with all (or really any other) Shards. I like the idea of Honor changing precisely because it’s weird and novel to have the bulk of a Shard’s power go without a vessel for so long. And I think it’s possible that beyond the fact that Honor, like all Shards, is flawed because it’s not balanced by the rest of the divine aspects, here Honor has already warped and changed from its original intent. (At least that’s my read on the whole deal with the ancient spren of the Wind being supplanted by the storm). I think as long as Honor is an exception to immutability due to the weird circumstances, I’m on board for a story about the Shard itself growing and changing.
RedBlue Posted December 11, 2024 Posted December 11, 2024 7 hours ago, logicless.bt said: Because the nature of the Cosmere is conflict between Shards of a monotheistic god, and the way that the Shattering is resolved is THE message of the series. If all Shards must be Splintered, the message is that humans need to take responsibility for themselves and act as autonomous beings free of godly intervention. If Adonalsium is reconstructed and perfect, the message is that God (and by extension humanity) needs diversity of experience and emotional capacity in order to rule or live perfectly, respectively. There's room for middle grounds, but those two directions are the way that the Cosmere seems to be heading. I have also been thinking about the broader themes and overarching narrative of the Cosmere, so I’m glad you made this thread. For obvious reasons, I can’t speak to Sanderson’s personal beliefs, but I find his portrayal of religious institutions in the Cosmere so far to be thoughtful, respectful, but most of all, skeptical. The religious institutions in Elantris and Mistborn (era 1) are straight-up broken. The one in Warbreaker is more nuanced in that the ‘gods’ genuinely serve a helpful role in society, but it is rife with ethical problems and ultimately does not have correct answers for the deeper questions. Vorinism in Stormlight brings peace of mind to people like Navani, but it’s clearly a mishmash bundle of culture-specific traditions and half-remembered history that has been passed down regardless of whether any of it it is true or even helpful. This has earned my trust as a reader. Wherever the Cosmere is heading, I don’t think ‘god(s) will have to learn how to figure it out’ is the destination. It would be too simplistic, and it would ring hollow. I believe Sanderson is a better writer than that. It’s also notable that all of the characters presented as gods in the Cosmere are really just regular people who, for various reasons, ended up with huge amounts of power. What they choose to do with it, and how it changes them, are central to most Cosmere stories. I suspect that Honor’s nascent personality is shaping up to be another manifestation of this theme — he won’t be a ‘true’ deity, but a person (albeit not a human) with a limited perspective and far too much power. The difference between ‘gods have to be better’ and ‘people with power have to be better’ is substantial. 5
logicless.bt Posted December 11, 2024 Author Posted December 11, 2024 10 hours ago, RedBlue said: I have also been thinking about the broader themes and overarching narrative of the Cosmere, so I’m glad you made this thread. For obvious reasons, I can’t speak to Sanderson’s personal beliefs, but I find his portrayal of religious institutions in the Cosmere so far to be thoughtful, respectful, but most of all, skeptical. The religious institutions in Elantris and Mistborn (era 1) are straight-up broken. The one in Warbreaker is more nuanced in that the ‘gods’ genuinely serve a helpful role in society, but it is rife with ethical problems and ultimately does not have correct answers for the deeper questions. Vorinism in Stormlight brings peace of mind to people like Navani, but it’s clearly a mishmash bundle of culture-specific traditions and half-remembered history that has been passed down regardless of whether any of it it is true or even helpful. This has earned my trust as a reader. Wherever the Cosmere is heading, I don’t think ‘god(s) will have to learn how to figure it out’ is the destination. It would be too simplistic, and it would ring hollow. I believe Sanderson is a better writer than that. It’s also notable that all of the characters presented as gods in the Cosmere are really just regular people who, for various reasons, ended up with huge amounts of power. What they choose to do with it, and how it changes them, are central to most Cosmere stories. I suspect that Honor’s nascent personality is shaping up to be another manifestation of this theme — he won’t be a ‘true’ deity, but a person (albeit not a human) with a limited perspective and far too much power. The difference between ‘gods have to be better’ and ‘people with power have to be better’ is substantial. Appreciate the nuance on this. Very reassuring 1
alder24 Posted December 12, 2024 Posted December 12, 2024 From many WoBs we know that Shardic intent can be changed. Rayse tried to do it claiming to be Passion, not Odium and this did have an effect on his Shard. Ati did the same with Ruin, he successfully channeled its intent to become embodiment of entropy, not just mindless destruction. The Vessel filters Shardic intent and provides an interpretation to it. Honor is a very specific case. The power was left alone for so long that it started to develop sapience and self-awareness - its own mind. The power started to manifest its own Vessel. Even though Taravangian holds Honor, this new mind is still there. It can learn, change and provide a different interpretation of Honor. But WoBs are clear, the change is limited. There is a framework that binds the intent and you can't force the Shard to be about something that isn't within the borders of this framework. Spoiler Necarion Do Vessels have any flexibility in expressing the intent of a Shard, particularly if the intent is open to many interpretations? Brandon Sanderson Yes they do. So, the Vessel's mind and how they perceive is going to have a large influence on how things are expressed and I think all of them have some wiggle room. But there are some deterministic things that are also going to push them. You know, holding Ruin, Harmony may not go down the same path that happened to Ati. Necarion So Sadeas would express Honor differently than Tanavast? Brandon Sanderson Yes he would. Arcanum Unbounded San Francisco signing (Nov. 30, 2016) Spoiler Questioner I was just wondering if a Shard's intent can change over time without changing holders? Brandon Sanderson Without changing holders? The holder can have a slight effect on how the-- a big effect on how the intent is interpreted, but what the intent is stays the same. So it's gonna be filtered. The way it manifests can change, and you'll see that happening, but it is the same intent. When it was broken off, it took a certain thing with it. Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 21, 2017) Spoiler [...] yulerule Is there any connection with the thought that it's not Hatred? Because in Oathbringer, he says he's Passion? Brandon Sanderson He would claim that he's Passion and not Odium. But that is part of why I chose it. Hatred felt too on-the-nose, because there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion, and that's what he claims that he is. yulerule His own perception of himself, can perception, in the cosmere, can that influence? Brandon Sanderson Yes, it can influence. yulerule So the Shard's Intent can-- Brandon Sanderson Can be influenced by their perception and the holder's, yes. JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018) Spoiler Alvaro Lopez Why Odium is stronger and worst evil than Ruin? Brandon Sanderson One reason is that Ruin had a person in control of it who, for many years, fought against the impulse to destroy--and in the end, channeled it toward entropy and decay, necessary elements of the universe. Odium represents something else entirely. General Twitter 2018 (June 6, 2018) Spoiler Doombrigade (paraphrased) If an individual has a mental sickness, such as multiple personalities, can that affect a Shard's intent if picked up by him or her? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes, that is possible. Doombrigade (paraphrased) Is it possible that Autonomy is one such, and has multiple personalities? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) RAFO. ICon 2019 (Oct. 17, 2019) Spoiler Jess The Cognitive aspect of an object is the way that the object views itself and others view it. Say the Vessel of a Shard started to view their power in a somewhat different way than when they first got that power, and the people on the planet also start to view it that way. Would the intent/mandate of that Shard be altered by that changes? Brandon Sanderson Within some limitations, yes. Certain Shards--certain Vessels believe it can go further than others believe it can go. But there is at least some wiggle room there. MisCon 2018 (May 26, 2018) Spoiler Questioner We know Ati chose how Ruin was interpreted, in that he was a card-cackling maniac. Could someone so differently interpret a Shard as to change its name to be something different? Could someone pick up the Shard of Ruin and think I'm the Shard of Change? Or could someone pick up the Shard of Honor and think-- Brandon Sanderson *hesitantly* Yes. To an extent. The interpretation, what you call a thing-- I think it would be arguable either way in-world, regardless of what they call themselves. There are those who would say the core intent is still there and you can't shift it that far, and others would argue you can shift it far enough to change the definition to a synonym. You see evidence of someone claiming this in the books. I'm not gonna confirm or deny for you whether that is actually a thing or not. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Spoiler Sethcran Who in-world named the Intents of the Shards? Is it possible that they misinterpreted the name in any case, and that the Intent is not fully in line with the name we know? Brandon Sanderson This is possible. Right, this is absolutely possible. I mean you have context for this with Odium kind of claiming that it's not the right name for Odium. Others would disagree, but Odium has tried, aggressively, to change that name. I will say, you could make the argument, well, Odium just is bucking the trend and this is actually who Odium is. It is possible. Which is why Odium would try to get that name changed. These are imperfect definitions of ideas, as most words are. Those ideas could be misinterpreted. Sethcran Could a Deception Shard be out there calling itself something else, and none would be the wiser? Brandon Sanderson None being the wiser would be real hard. The other Shards knowing but other people not knowing could happen. It would be pretty hard for the Shards to not know, but it is within the realm of possibility. How about that? YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) Spoiler delvin Is it possible that Honor's Shard is named Honor, because this is how the man who hold The Shard inerpreted it but not it's real name? In that case could The Shard change the name to something else that would better fit with personality of the new holder? As an example, could Honor become Unity if Dalinar were the holder? Brandon Sanderson The name Honor is bigger than Tanavast, though it's not impossible for shards to be interpreted differently by those who hold them, and perhaps other names be applied. General Reddit 2020 (Dec. 1, 2020) 3
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