Would You Kill Moash?

[Mattel]

Hello everyone!

Moash is a very controversial topic, so I wanted to start a conversation centered around him. Naturally.

If you were writing the Storm Light Archive, would you kill Moash? Or would you try to redeem him? Somewhere in between? The poll lists different options, and I am curious to see what the spectrum is of people's opinions, and which show up more often.

[AltonicKeys he/him]

I kinda see it as, yeah he's super evil and we should all hate him for what he's done and we should probably kill him off. But also that's a 100% understandable path to take. Like yeah if I was that conflicted about my life I would totally sell my emotions to an ancient god and do his bidding.
I don't want to call it "realism" but I think it adds to the element of human flaws. Which has probably been a recurring thing in Stormlight.

I think killing or redemption are both natural ways to tackle this, but I do want to see a reckoning of sorts at some point.

[Trusk'our he/him]

Gonna be honest, I don't really hate his character. I did right after Elhokar died, but that faded rather quickly. Moash is mostly a forgettable side character for me, unfortunately. 

That said, I do much prefer the idea of redemption for anybody, even very despicable people (one of my personal favorite fantasies is where the big bad evil guy has a change of heart and uses their powers for good), but I accept that it requires action on the part of the transgressor for true, sustainable change. Sad as it is, that's less likely to occur than we usually want, in reality. 

So, I'm in the field of wanting a redemption arc, but so long as it's written well I'd be fine with him staying set in his ways and facing all the consequences of his actions (though the tone of the Stormlight Archive makes me highly doubt the latter).

[Lord Spirit he/him]

I think he has done enough things to deserve death, but he shouldn't just get stabbed by someone in an act of rage or revenge. It should be done preferably legally, or by someone who is acting with a just intent.

[Treamayne]

I do not think Moash would allow Moash to have a redemption arc. Barring very significant changes to characterization, my impression is that Moash - should he truely realize and feel the repercussions/consequences of his actions - would be the kind of person to "suicide by cop" (or possibly "Death equals redemption"). He's been running from himself for so long, I don't think he would be able to face the guilt and honestly seek reparations/amends.

We'll have to see how his situation at the end of RoW affects him in SA5, though.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Duxredux he/him]

This is really two questions not one. The poll asks what I would do personally, while the introductory post asks what I would do if I was writing SA. Those are very different questions.

For the first one, I don't think I could kill someone equipped with an Honorblade on Roshar. I don't have the training, equipment, connections, or resources to pull it off, even if I had the inclination. I'm far more likely to be killed either by Moash protecting himself or a Fused retaining Jezrien's Blade for Odium's side. Should by some quirk of fate Moash ends up in my power without his Blade, I would hand him over to the relevant legal body. I am not a judiciary of any Rosharan nation, nor am I comfortable serving as both judge and executioner. Should I be called to serve as a juror for a trial for Moash, then it would depend on the relevant legislature, range of punishments served by the court, and provable crimes. Stating my knowledge from reading SA would either set a horrible precedent or fail to hold up in court. Should he be convicted, I would not support torture for his crimes, as I do not like how those practices change those instructed to carry them out.

There's generally a reason punishments are fines (monetary restitution), community service (labor restitution), imprisonment (isolating convicts from others they can harm), and execution (reduction of costs associated with imprisonment freeing up funds for other community needs). Restitution, restoration, protection, and prioritization of the innocent are more important to me than channeling personnel and resources in pursuit of revenge or retribution.

To answer the second, it depends on the rest of the story. From a narrative standpoint, the characters are the ones who make their decisions and choose the associated risks and consequences. Take Amaram - he was trying to kill Kaladin and so Rock shot him. Rock probably had no idea who or even what his captain was fighting, but he made the decision and accepted the consequences. This is a big messy war, and Moash could fall for a host of reasons that have nothing to with his history, motives, or possible future. A Fused like Lezien could awaken and hate the human among them. A Windrunner not of Bridge Four could kill Moash in self defense. Dalinar or Jasnah could order a strike on Moash to try to recover the Honorblade. How would Moash's decisions or end state affect other characters like Kaladin, Navani, and the rest of Bridge Four? I'm nowhere near Brandon's caliber, but the answer will almost certainly be whatever makes the best story.

 

[TwinStorm He/Him]

I would have Moash die as the writer, but not in act of rage or vengeance. He needs to be a) either killed by one of Odium's forces (preferably El) or b) spared in the moment then killed after retaliation. 

[Through the living jeff he/him(straight)]

Yes.

[Mattel]

33 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

This is really two questions not one. The poll asks what I would do personally, while the introductory post asks what I would do if I was writing SA. Those are very different questions.

For the first one, I don't think I could kill someone equipped with an Honorblade on Roshar. I don't have the training, equipment, connections, or resources to pull it off, even if I had the inclination. I'm far more likely to be killed either by Moash protecting himself or a Fused retaining Jezrien's Blade for Odium's side. Should by some quirk of fate Moash ends up in my power without his Blade, I would hand him over to the relevant legal body. I am not a judiciary of any Rosharan nation, nor am I comfortable serving as both judge and executioner. Should I be called to serve as a juror for a trial for Moash, then it would depend on the relevant legislature, range of punishments served by the court, and provable crimes. Stating my knowledge from reading SA would either set a horrible precedent or fail to hold up in court. Should he be convicted, I would not support torture for his crimes, as I do not like how those practices change those instructed to carry them out.

There's generally a reason punishments are fines (monetary restitution), community service (labor restitution), imprisonment (isolating convicts from others they can harm), and execution (reduction of costs associated with imprisonment freeing up funds for other community needs). Restitution, restoration, protection, and prioritization of the innocent are more important to me than channeling personnel and resources in pursuit of revenge or retribution.

To answer the second, it depends on the rest of the story. From a narrative standpoint, the characters are the ones who make their decisions and choose the associated risks and consequences. Take Amaram - he was trying to kill Kaladin and so Rock shot him. Rock probably had no idea who or even what his captain was fighting, but he made the decision and accepted the consequences. This is a big messy war, and Moash could fall for a host of reasons that have nothing to with his history, motives, or possible future. A Fused like Lezien could awaken and hate the human among them. A Windrunner not of Bridge Four could kill Moash in self defense. Dalinar or Jasnah could order a strike on Moash to try to recover the Honorblade. How would Moash's decisions or end state affect other characters like Kaladin, Navani, and the rest of Bridge Four? I'm nowhere near Brandon's caliber, but the answer will almost certainly be whatever makes the best story.

 

When I wrote "If you were writing the story," I meant it was the same question. Not really looking for super nitty gritty specifics there, just curious what people would choose to do, kill him, save him, neither, etc. I was only asking, if it was up to you, what would you choose to do. 

 

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

I do not think Moash would allow Moash to have a redemption arc. Barring very significant changes to characterization, my impression is that Moash - should he truely realize and feel the repercussions/consequences of his actions - would be the kind of person to "suicide by cop" (or possibly "Death equals redemption"). He's been running from himself for so long, I don't think he would be able to face the guilt and honestly seek reparations/amends.

We'll have to see how his situation at the end of RoW affects him in SA5, though.

Also I think that this is very insightful and true.

From what everyone else has said, people want something bad or some sort of punishment to happen, but not necessarily death, and not exactly death fueled by revenge and anger.

At least three people have answered "None of the these," so I am curious: What question were you looking for that accurately describes how you feel?

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Mattel said:

At least three people have answered "None of the these," so I am curious: What question were you looking for that accurately describes how you feel?

I answered "none of these" because all of your poll responses - despite the question being about "if I were the author" are written from a Fan PoV. 

There was no response about the direction of Moash's Character Arc, or what feels like a consideration for Hist story. Compare, if you will, these Warbreaker Annotations (Spoilers for Warbreaker):

Spoiler

Annotations to Ch 2:

Quote

I like reversals and tone changes, but I still think that readers deserve to have an understanding of what the major plots and arcs for a character will be. There will be twists, but I don’t want to just twist needlessly or endlessly. The characters are the most important part of the story, and one thing I rarely twist (particularly late in a book) is a character’s personal arc. I keep personal arcs steady, as they’re the foundation of a reader’s attachment to the book.

Annotations to Ch 39:

Quote

However, this same sense can be problematic if I let it drive me too far. It’s nearly impossible to write a book that doesn’t echo anything someone else has done. It’s tough enough to come up with one original idea, let alone make every single idea in a book original. I think that trying to do so would be a path to folly—a path to rarely, if ever, completing anything.

In this case, we needed to have a longer time with Vivenna on the streets. We needed it to feel like she’d earned the sections of time she spent there. I knew I didn’t want to go overboard on it, but I also couldn’t skimp. So I sliced the chapter into two and added some material to each one, particularly the second chapter.

Annotations to Ch 43:

Quote

Vivenna Awakes in Vasher’s Care

Vivenna, as a character, was divided into two parts in my head. There was the Vivenna of the first half of the book, who was haughty and misled, though determined and self-confident. Then there was the break in the middle, where everything was taken away from her. Now we’re into Vivenna’s second half, the confused and uncertain Vivenna who has to essentially start all over.

Her plot is a contrast to Siri’s plot. Siri’s growth is more gradual; she doesn’t have an event like Vivenna’s time on the streets to make a focus for her plotline. The depth of growth the changes afford Vivenna made her a very interesting character to write; I’m sorry that she’s generally people’s least favorite character. But that wasn’t all that unanticipated. When presented with a large group of characters, many of whom were amusing or mysterious, then dropping one major character in who had a serious growth arc but started out less likable … well, you expect readers to latch on to other characters. By this point in the story, they’re not used to caring about Vivenna as much as the others, so I think that her drama isn’t as powerful for them—which means she doesn’t have time to earn their affection, even when she starts changing and growing.

Vivenna had to undergo her time on the streets, she had to get to the lowest possible point for her Character Growth to happen, for her to challenge her own biases and beliefs.  

So, without a poll responses like "need of the story" or "need of the character" - none of the responses fit my answer. And, my answer is that, based on current data, I expect Moash to die - not because of judgement, vengeance, etc. - but because even if he were offered a redemption arc, it would feel out of character for his to take that path. Now, should his state at the end of RoW be the start of a his version of the example spoilered above, then maybe Moash would eventually be in a state where he would accept redemption ashould it be offered (I simply find that unlikely, because we already have Szeth on that Character Path). 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Returned he/him]

Narratively, probably not, though I can see a case for it. It's too pat a solution to kill him when so many elements of the current conflict have revolved around him, and redemption and self-improvement are driving themes of SA. It's also problematic that he has surrendered a significant portion of himself to Odium, and so the things he's done since around the time he attacked Elhokar may (to some degree) not exactly be attributable to him. At least not in total. He could die in a battle and that would be appropriate enough but I view him as more of a symbol and avatar of the broader conflict than as a driver of it and so killing him doesn't strike me as especially necessary.

The only exception to this that comes to my mind is that his death could be a major crisis for Kaladin, with Odium returning Moash's pain to him just before Kaladin has to strike him down (or see him killed by someone else). That would mean that it's Moash that dies rather than Vyre and would be an appropriate complication for Kaladin achieving the Fifth Ideal, which I expect him to do. I also think that Moash's pain, and therefore his true identity as a person, being returned to him at a particularly pivotal and vicious moment has been foreshadowed pretty strongly. In such a situation only his death or redemption really tracks, and the shape of the story suggests to me that it's more about Kaladin than Moash which makes him more likely to be an object (what happens to him affects others) than a subject (what happens to him is his own, proper story, which can contain redemption).

If I were writing Stormlight (and good thing for all of us that I am not!), I would probably conclude Moash's story with him getting free of Odium, being remorseful about his actions to the point of being ruined, but not being redeemed. We already have too much "they were bad, so they died" to really need one more instance of it, and a lot of redemptions (most of the POV Radiants), and an endless number of people who aren't on that axis at all. What we don't have is someone who fails, survives, has to live with their regrets, and doesn't overcome their brokenness. Moash already has shown some of the self loathing, and the remorse, and has dealt with it by anti-Radiant development via Odium. I think he could manage to reach regret/atonement-without-redemption, though it would be a sadder and far less dramatic than death by any means.

In practical terms (like, if I were a Radiant on Roshar and fighting against Odium) I would do it in a heartbeat, if able. Moash is skilled, dangerous, and so far utterly committed to Odium's service. I would never believe that he has been marginalized or otherwise dealt with short of his death (barring some miraculous plot development as yet unknown), and even that may not be enough given what Odium has done with the Fused. He's as dedicated and implacable an enemy as there could be.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Returned
Added a bit about how I would end Moash's story, to flesh out my answer to the poll

[Mags she/they]

12 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Gonna be honest, I don't really hate his character. I did right after Elhokar died, but that faded rather quickly. Moash is mostly a forgettable side character for me, unfortunately. 

FINALLY SOMEONE WHO FEELS THE SAME WAY!!

Personally, if I were the writer I wouldn't kill him off. Simply because the story is about changing and re-inventing ourselves into better people, so killing someone off and saying 'they were too far gone' is very against the themes of the book in my opinion. No matter the actual in-world context of his death.

I think a redemption arc in SA5 would be too fast for some people (though maybe not me), so I think if I were writing this out I'd have an eye-opening moment happen for him at the end of SA5. Not enough to redeem him, but enough to get the ball rolling. He'd be imprisoned, or isolated at the end of SA5, and then an actual redemption arc could be covered throughout SA6-10 after the time skip.

[Mattel]

I was just wondering to myself: What is it that Moash wants, what is it that drives him to be who he is. Who has Sanderson created, what does he want? So first he wanted revenge on Elhokar and was a coward about that. He eventually killed Elhokar, but as we are told in OB and in every story containing fulfilled revenge, Moash felt empty afterwards. Moash seems to want to feel nothing, yet to be able to do everything. He desires to feel no desires, and when he was forced to feel the true guilt of his actions, when he killed Teft (sob) and then felt it all, to him, that is hell. It is the thing that he fears the most. Yet if he wants to feel nothing, why doesn't he just kill himself and end everything? Clearly something is keeping him from doing that, and it seems to be his desire for... completion? To eventually reach a stage where he is fully in sync with Odium and doesn't feel anything? He also has seemed to stick around because of his sense of Honor, for even people like him still possess it. It is honorable to him to try and keep the Singers from becoming like the hated Alethi. It's also a little ironic to me that Moash wants to feel no emotion and therefore has allied himself with the god of emotion. But they just seem like a perfect match for each other, don't they?

The reason I was wondering this, is similar to Treamayne's way of thinking, of would Moash allow Moash to be redeemed, but instead, what does Moash want for Moash. I was wondering if the outcome of that would end up with his death. 

Fascinating to think that Moash, Sadeas, Amaram, they all act with what they believe to be Honor. Moash believes he is doing the right thing in helping the Singers redominate their land, Sadeas believes that it is honorable to try and create HIS vision of Alethkar, and Amaram fooled himself into thinking it was more honorable to have skilled shardbearers than darkeyes. Honor truly does live on in the hearts of men. But people love grasping tiny bits of him and then giving up, saying "Look at what I did, I got the full piece," never thinking or realizing that they reached for the smallest bit, when their is so much more to be discovered.

Ah Philosophy 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Mattel

[teknopathetic he/him]

Why is only one option to kill Moash because he is human garbage? I don't think Moash is the worst ever, but I would kill him since Moash is actively threatening my life (imagining i am team Dalinar)

I would kill him the same way I think it is okay to kill Sadaes. You don't need to wait until the exact second someone is trying to kill you in order for you to act in self defence. Killing Moash would be self-defense at this point. 

Its like if you knew someone named Bob had been sent to murder you and everyone you love. Bob had confirmed it AND Bob had already killed some people you love. Are you allowed to kill Bob when you accidentally see him out and about at grocery store? Is it okay to not wait until Bob actively is coming at you with a knife? Yes, I think so. Adolin was acting in self defense when he met Sadaes, and I would kill Moash in the same way. 

Not everyone agrees with me. However, there have been legal cases where an exceptionally abused and isolated spouse kills their partner when their partner's guard is down. The courts had to decide if it still counts as self defense if your partner isn't beating you to within an inch of your life at that very moment. Basically, do you have to wait patiently until your partner has a knife and has the advantage before you can act? To me, I think self defense can be a period in time rather than just a specific moment of life-or-death terror (provided the right circumstances). 

Not killing Moash means more people will die, or I will die, so I will kill him in self defence the first chance I get. Even if I just saw Moash just sitting at the park eating some chouda. He doesnt morally get to pull a knife on me first for me to be able to act. 

Edited December 3, 2024 by teknopathetic

[AtrusAgeWriter he/him]

I completely hate Moash and think he is completely irredeemable. I will totally admit that this view is fairly irrational and brought on by personal circumstances when I first read the book, but still. Moash spends the entirety of Rhythm of War psychologically torturing Kaladin in order to get him to kill himself. I don't care if he sold his emotions to Odium, I don't care if he has a soul. Those actions, in my eyes, make him completely irredeemable. I don't even care if he gets a satisfying death. I just want him gone.

[Shadow of Electrum he/him]

I believe a character can have a sad backstory that evokes sympathy and still be irredeemable.

That is Moash.

That is all.

...

But seriously. I believe that Moash's story is sad and I can sympathize with him to a degree, but he is absolutely beyond redemption for all the people he's betrayed, killed, or otherwise simply out of baseless hatred and other petty reasons. He's been overwhelmed with guilt since the start, and he absolutely deserves it.

[a Faceless Immortal he/him]

I often joke that Moash deserves a redemption arc, solely so that someone can stick a spear through him at the pivotal moment.

That being said, I don't want him to die for death's sake. I would prefer that he grows into an interesting anti-hero and gets some character development, because I feel that he has an interesting relationship with Kaladin, and I would like to explore the dynamic they present between selfishness/selflessness.

[Mattel]

So I'm hearing a lot of of different things:

1. This is the biggest one: people wish that there were more options. I was debating doing ten options (because I like the number ten for no reason whatsoever) but I couldn't decide what all I should put. If anyone wants to, feel free to message here or privately what option you wish I had put to describe where you fit.

2. People want some sort of retribution but not necessarily death.

3. People want a redemption arc for Moash.

4. I have seen some people say that they don't really care or aren't super interested in him.

I asked this because I was curious where people fell on a graph. 10 people voted for they didn't really like him but don't necessarily want to see him die. 11 others voted for the most severe one, that of Moash dying. 

Thank you all for taking part in this!