Why are all the Dead Blades Swords?

[listerfeend]

Ok, this has been nagging at me for a while now. I'm told by some that it's just because the sword is the most versatile weapon form, but that doesn't jive with me. We know that Living Blades as used by Radiants can be literally any shape and form. We've seen a Shardfork! Why are all of the Deadblades swords? It seems very strange to me that there aren't even any historical mentions of Shardspears or anything else, and there are at least two orders where I can see something like the Spear being FAR more effective than any Sword, those being Windrunners and Skybreakers. Using a sword from the sky, or against the Heavenly Ones, who favor their own lance/spear like weapon, is just not very practical. 

My theory on this is that, since the Spren were apparently trying to mimic the Honorblades when they decided to form Nahel bonds, that the sword shape is just the default "shape" of what they manifest as in the physical realm, but then, they are all so highly unique and stylized, every one being distinct enough that it's possible to track the swords lineage into history. 

Does anyone have any better ideas/theories on this?

[CtrlAltDepressed]

Personally, I believe this is due to the culture of Roshar. 

 

A swordsman is seen as a more elite fighter, a higher class warrior. Some of this on Roshar is definitely due to Radiants, however there is a natural inclination towards this. 

 

Even in our society a swordsman was a higher class warrior than a spearman. It takes a lot of dedication and money to be able to use a sword effectively, which is not true of a spear. Spears require less training and are far far cheaper to produce. 

 

Following this logic, it makes sense to me that most Radiants would have used swords. There was an established social hierarchy for what weapons a high class person would use, and we know that Radiants were the top class citizens, as evidenced by the lighteye vs darkeye distinction that exists even today. They would have been pressured socially to use a sword, and indeed many probably did not even consider an alternative weapon.

 

I am sure that some Radiants used spears and other weapons besides swords. However, when the Radiants abandoned their oaths, they were far into the history of Radiants existing. There would have been historical and cultural pressure to use a sword. When they dropped their weapons as deadblades, all the darkeyed people would know that a sword is seen more favorably than a spear, and would have wanted the dead swords more than dead spears. 

 

We only have a very very small percentage of deadblades compared to all the deadeye spren. Another real world example: we have many many many fantastically preserved Japanese Katanas from their time periods. However, we have very very few well preserved English longswords from a similar time period. Why is that? Well, the Japanese had a culture surrounding the upkeep and preservation of their swords as family heritage, while the English did not. Most longswords from the time were melted down in the following wars or industrialization. 

 

Of course the only deadblades that have lasted the thousands of years are the most prized ones. This makes sense to me. I dont think a sword is the default shape. I think there absolutely were other types of deadblades, they just simply havent made it through the test of time. 

[ruler of the mists He/His/the survivor of the pit]

the recreance was most likly planned,perhaps they decided to leave swords behind and swords are extremly versatiel.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

My theory on this is that, since the Spren were apparently trying to mimic the Honorblades when they decided to form Nahel bonds, that the sword shape is just the default "shape" of what they manifest as in the physical realm,

This is correct. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/222-words-of-radiance-houston-signing/#e5619

Questioner (paraphrased)

Why were all the Shardblades swords when they can take on any weapon form they want? Would they all revert to swords when they die?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

When they die they'd revert to the basic form which was a sword since they were patterned after Honorblades.

 

Edited November 20, 2024 by Trusk'our

[listerfeend]

Just now, ruler of the mists said:

the recreance was most likly planned,perhaps they decided to leave swords behind and swords are extremly versatiel.

But they didn't know that Deadeyes were going to be the outcome of the Recreance. That is told to us by Maya during Adolin's trial in Lasting Integrity. So I don't know why they would plan on this at all. The Recreance scene in the vision, at Feverstone keep, makes this slightly confusing, as they showed up, and then formed ranks, and all broke their Oaths at the same time, dropping their blades and armor. However, that could have just been a symbolic thing from the Radiants at the time, a way to let everyone know that they were done. So, maybe that's why? But I would figure that Radiants would have summoned their Spren as the weapon they are most used to using, and not specifically as Blades.

 

4 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Even in our society a swordsman was a higher class warrior than a spearman. It takes a lot of dedication and money to be able to use a sword effectively, which is not true of a spear. Spears require less training and are far far cheaper to produce. 

 

Following this logic, it makes sense to me that most Radiants would have used swords. There was an established social hierarchy for what weapons a high class person would use, and we know that Radiants were the top class citizens, as evidenced by the lighteye vs darkeye distinction that exists even today. They would have been pressured socially to use a sword, and indeed many probably did not even consider an alternative weapon.

As I mentioned, there are definitely some orders who would have likely used Spears, or Polearms of any kind, far more frequently than any type of sword. Arial combat with a sword is very silly. A Windrunner, in combat with anything, whether they can fly or not, would prefer a Polearm of some kind over a sword, any day. We also have Lighteyes with Plate in the present tense that use war hammers. I think "tradition" doesn't really make sense as an answer here, as, swords are really only preferred by nobility because their weapons can't change form at a mere thought. In the real world, knights would use lances, maces, and all manner of other weapons, depending on the foe they were facing, and the type of fighter they were. Swords were extremely expensive to make, taking far more time due to the amount of steel required, and the expertise required, to make them functional. Plus all of the training required to use one effectively. This is why they were reserved for nobility and the like, not because they were "better" weapons. In fact, many historical texts, irl, talk about the efficacy of the spear or quarterstaff over a sword. 

 

 

14 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

When they dropped their weapons as deadblades, all the darkeyed people would know that a sword is seen more favorably than a spear, and would have wanted the dead swords more than dead spears. 

I really don't think that anyone would have cared what kind of magical super weapon they would have been able to get their hands on. This makes very little sense to me. "Ugh, there are only indestructible spears capable of slicing through armor, stone, and people as if they weren't even there left... I guess I'll just leave that where it is" seems so extremely unlikely to me as to be an impossibility. I would say the same of the Radiants only using swords due to some kind of tradition or social pressure. A combatant uses the most effective weapon for the job at hand, and when your weapon can be literally any weapon that you know of, you don't stick to a single shape due to some kind of misguided following of tradition. 

 

 

20 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

We only have a very very small percentage of deadblades compared to all the deadeye spren

This is another thing that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but is a bit of a different topic. 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

This is correct. 

That wob would have saved us H O U R S of debate 

 

Thank you

[Trusk'our he/him]

Just now, CtrlAltDepressed said:

That wob would have saved us H O U R S of debate 

Thank you

You're welcome 

I just happened to remember something like it in my mind as I read your post and did an Arcanum dive to double check. 

[Smye]

3 hours ago, listerfeend said:

3 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

We only have a very very small percentage of deadblades compared to all the deadeye spren

This is another thing that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but is a bit of a different topic. 

Have you read the preview chapters?

[Treamayne]

10 minutes ago, Smye said:

Have you read the preview chapters?

Please keep Preview material in the appropriate Spoiler Section. 

[Mattel]

On 11/20/2024 at 9:25 AM, CtrlAltDepressed said:

A swordsman is seen as a more elite fighter, a higher class warrior. Some of this on Roshar is definitely due to Radiants, however there is a natural inclination towards this. 

 

Well, but that is simply the way of the Alethi elite. The Azish prefer the bow, Rock trained with a bow, so clearly the Horneaters don't have similar reservations about weapons and class. I think there are other cultures that use different weapons. Urithiru was placed in a spot that was supposedly close to the center of the continent, so that no country would feel unwelcome. I suspect it is similar of the Radiants. They welcomed everyone, at the end of one of Dalinar's visions, he is told he should come to Urithiru to consider joining their ranks. Considering swordsmanship as the more elite form of fighting is a very modern Alethi idea.

I'm not sure if this has relevance, but in Oathbringer, while at one of the villages, the one that was prepared and ready for Kaladin's arrival, he rises into the sky and summons his Shardblade, not a spear, because he realized that the swords represented something. It was a form people knew. At a separate time, he says he summoned Syl as a sword, what he considered her true form. 
Spoiler for Sunlit Man:

Spoiler

When he is trying to distract the Cinder King from putting an Ember Heart into someone, he summons Aux as a sword, and throws it. He is shocked by the fact that he A) was able to form a weapon but also B.) that it chose that specific form.

I agree that they probably reverted back to their "true form" during the Recreance because they were modeled after Honor Blades.