Hemalurgy's Lost Power

[scientificmotif]

We know that Hemalurgy steals Preservation's investment in a person. We also know that spikes not stored in blood lose power. Where does the lost power go?

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, scientificmotif said:

We know that Hemalurgy steals Preservation's investment in a person. We also know that spikes not stored in blood lose power. Where does the lost power go?

That is an excellent question. 

As far as I'm aware, we don't know, but I see a few possibilities. 

It's possible that the initial spiking loses power as a portion of the donor's Investiture is siphoned off to fuel the process. Kind of like how Feruchemy becomes less efficient as you tap it more quickly. 

It's also possible that this Investiture is still present in the spike, but because the spike needs to rearrange the bearer's Spiritweb to prevent death, this costs a portion of its power.

And, it could very well be that the process just isn't perfectly efficient, which also makes some sense since Atium focuses it better and takes more Investiture in the first place. 

But, if we're talking about the leaking that occurs after the initial spiking, I think it's comparable to a phenomenon in the Stormlight Archive. 

Spoiler

Gemstones leak Investiture over time, much like how Hemalurgic spikes do.

I think that when a spike is outside a body the Investiture will attempt to fulfill Ruin's Intent and grow in entropy, dispersing from the metal over time.

This lost Investiture will eventually make its way back to whatever Shard it belonged to before, just like how any expended Investiture would. 

Hope this was helpful!

Edited November 18, 2024 by Trusk'our

[Treamayne]

56 minutes ago, scientificmotif said:

We know that Hemalurgy steals Preservation's investment in a person. We also know that spikes not stored in blood lose power. Where does the lost power go?

BLUF: It returns to the investiture cycle. Decay and power loss are an integral part of Ruin's intent.

Hemalurgy actually loses power at every step in the process. Even Spiking through the victim directly into the recipient will result in the spike being slightly weaker than the "donor." Power lost eventually returns to the Spiritual Realm. There are a lot of reference WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Hemalurgy spikes lose power after they are taken out of a body, right?  So why did Vin’s spike still give her power after being so long out of her ear?

Brandon Sanderson

They decay, but it's not a really fast decay. And it also kind of works like a half-life thing. Does that make sense?  So you get an initial just "that's bad" but that had happened to hers long ago when she had taken it out for the first time, right? And then over time, like if that had sat out for hundreds of years you're going to end up with something like Wax's earring that's like-- it gives a bit, but it barely gives anything. But as long as you're kind of keeping it in and out you're going to be a lot better off.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

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swieczq

Had a hemalurgic spike been encased in aluminium, would it still decay?

Brandon Sanderson

Nobody has tried that! (It might work.)

Kraków signing (March 21, 2017)

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Argent

The Lost Metal Ars Arcanum calls Hemalurgic decay a thing of the past. The term has been used to describe the loss of power in spikes outside of bodies, as well as the small amount of power that is lost at the moment a spike is created. Which one of those things no longer happens?

Brandon Sanderson

The first one, the decay of spikes outside of a body. They have figured out how to make that no longer a thing.

Argent

So it's still a thing that happens in the cosmere, they just know how to avoid that completely?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023)

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trevorade

Is investiture finite? Hemalurgy and a Return's need to consume breath seems to show us that it can be destroyed. If it is finite, is the Cosmere's magic source doomed to the law of entropy?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture can not be created or destroyed. It follows it's own version of the laws of Thermodynamics.

Joe_____

So what happens to the investiture that is lost when a person is spiked and the spike isn't set in the new person immediately? Does it return to the big pool of investiture in the sky like the power from wheel of time where if its not actively being used it returns to the source?

Brandon Sanderson

What happens to someone's body when it's not being used by a particular person? The system is built to work like that.

/r/books AMA 2015 (March 12, 2015)

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Kurkistan

If Investiture can neither be created nor destroyed, and Feruchemy is all fueled by the Feruchemist himself, then how do metalminds end up being invested without Feruchemists seeming to suffer any long-term loss of Investiture? If they're not "creating" the energy that's going into the metalminds, then where's it coming from?

Brandon Sanderson

The cosmere takes physics from our universe, and adds additional layers to it. Where we have energy and matter (simplified), the cosmere has additional building blocks that make reality. Investiture is one of these. It IS possible to change matter, to energy, to investiture, and back.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 5, 2015)

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yurisses

You once said that Investiture follows its own version of the laws of thermodynamics. The first one is that Investiture is neither created nor destroyed.

Is the second law of Investodynamics that the amount of corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere cannot decrease?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, the idea is that there is a third item in the equations--matter, energy, and investiture. That's the basis of how they work.

Entropy is not corrupted Investiture. The second law stands as is. However, there is a fourth law that relates to Adonalsium, which I'm not going to talk about at the moment.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015)

 

 

[alder24]

15 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

We know that Hemalurgy steals Preservation's investment in a person. We also know that spikes not stored in blood lose power. Where does the lost power go?

This investiture in a person's soul came from the Shard and the Spiritual Realm and that's where the leaked investiture goes back. It simply returns to the Spiritual Realm and later continues in the cycle of investiture returning back to the Physical Realm in one way or another.

Spoiler

Skyler Cecil

Is there an Investiture cycle on Roshar? Cycling through the crem rain and flora and fauna back into the storm, or something like that. Like the water cycle. If Investiture is finite, is it recycled back into the Cosmere when Investiture like Breath or Stormlight is expended? Otherwise, wouldn't Investiture run out?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is such a cycle. It is renewed and changed time and time again. It gets in and out of the Spiritual Realm, often with the birth of new individuals.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018)

 

[ruler of the mists He/His/the survivor of the pit]

that is interesting, in real world science you cant destroy matter(except blackholes don't know much about them),maybe it is the same with investiture. 

[scientificmotif]

Thanks. On a related note, how exactly is Allomancy passed down? There's no evidence of anyone losing Investiture when their children are born, so the investiture must come directly from the Preservation shard on birth, presumably automatically, as if Preservation somehow "programmed" the shard to give newborn Investiture automatically. But Allomancy isn't just a spiritweb thing, someone with Allomancy has extra investiture. Does their Spiritweb somehow "tell" the preservation shard to provide more Investiture? But why, then, would Allomancy weaken over time? Most of these problems apply to and even might worsen with Feruchemy, as apparently it existed before Preservation... Hey, wait a minute. If humans existed on the planet before Preservation, and Preservation's investiture is supposed to be the thing giving humans free will, what the hell was happening before Preservation and Ruin arrived? Actually, I should start a new thread in general Cosmere Q&A before this leaks into asking about other shards and minor shardworlds and their life being Invested...

8 minutes ago, ruler of the mists said:

that is interesting, in real world science you cant destroy matter(except blackholes don't know much about them),maybe it is the same with investiture. 

Yes. If you read the post, then it is not maybe, it is definetly.

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

On a related note, how exactly is Allomancy passed down? There's no evidence of anyone losing Investiture when their children are born, so the investiture must come directly from the Preservation shard on birth, presumably automatically, as if Preservation somehow "programmed" the shard to give newborn Investiture automatically. 

We don't know exactly yet.

It's genetic in nature, but it relies on spiritual DNA, not physical, so the rules are more subject to in-universe dictation. 

Allomancy is hardwritten into your Spiritweb based on your level of Preservation, though to actually utilize it you must Snap, which unlocks it somehow (I strongly suspect this is done by forging a bond between the person's Allomantic power and the Shard of Preservation).

This Connection between the Allomancer can then be used to trade metals for Investiture, which is shaped by the type of metal used.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/385-orem-signing/#e12576

Snipexe

Is Allomancy a recessive or dominant gene?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't work according to Physical genetics, it works according to Spiritual genetics, and they don't work exactly the same way.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/522-dragonsteel-2023/#e16270

Questioner

My question is about biology and genetics. We've seen that magical systems rely on *inaudible* genetics, like allomancy, or spiritual DNA. Can we use *inaudible* CRISPR to either weaponize or take someone's magical ability or give them a magical ability?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of. The in-world version of this is Hemalurgy, as you already know. There are methods that would do this, but straight genetics alone with CRISPR wouldn't do it. You need the spiritual component for these to work, almost assuredly. You might be able to use CRISPR... no, I don't think there are any of them it would work on. Is it possible you could make someone into a kandra? That may be possible, right? But I'm not 100% sure on that.

<redacted>

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270-the-hero-of-ages-annotations/#e8025

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventy

The Reason for the Mistsickness

So, it finally comes out. I wonder at this numbers plot, as I think many readers will glaze over it and ignore it. I think others will read into it and figure out what it means very quickly, then feel that the reveal here isn't much of a revelation. Hopefully I'll get a majority in the middle who read the clues, don't know what they mean, but are happily surprised when it comes together. That's a difficult line to walk sometimes.

What is going on here is that the mists are awakening the Allomantic potential inside of people. It's very rough on a person for that to come out, and can cause death. Preservation set this all up before he gave his consciousness to imprison Ruin, so it's not a perfect system. It's like a machine left behind by its creator. The catalyst is the return of the power to the Well of Ascension. As soon as that power becomes full, it sets the mists to begin Snapping those who have the potential for Allomancy buried within them.

Many of these people won't be very strong Allomancers. Their abilities were buried too deeply to have come out without the mists' intervention. Others will have a more typical level of power; they might have Snapped earlier, had they gone through enough anguish to bring the power out.

My idea on this is that Allomantic potential is a little like a supersaturated solution. You can suspend a great deal of something like sugar in a liquid when it is hot, then cool it down and the sugar remains suspended. Drop one bit of sugar in there as a catalyst, however, and the rest will fall out as a precipitate.

Allomancy is the same. It's in there, but it takes a reaction—in this case, physical anguish—to trigger it and bring it out. That's because the Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside.

As has been established, Ruin's control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer's control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don't have time to speak right now.

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

As a side note, Feruchemy weakens too, but the effects are much less pronounced. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467-youtube-spoiler-stream-2/#e14740

Yoonseo Chang

Looking at Allomancy, you've mentioned that over time the power dilutes and each ability becomes less powerful. (for example a Tineye in Era 2 will generally be less powerful than one in Era 1) Does the same effect happen in Feruchemy as well? How would Feruchemy become less pure or diluted (other than Ferrings appearing)?

Brandon Sanderson

I have not gone as far with Feruchemy in that regard. I would say that if you're going to get a weakening of Feruchemy, which you're asking about, is the amount of stored attribute you get for lost attribute. There is decay there, you don't get a 1:1. Feruchemy generally I would say is not much weaker than it was before, a little bit but not much. This was done partially for narrative reasons. I wanted Allomancy... I wanted to back off a little on Allomancy and tell stories with it a little bit weaker. Again, mostly narrative reasons at this point. At this point on Scadrial, it's weakened about as much as it's going to because by this point people are having children that are more powerful because of the certain mixing. I'm not saying it's going up, I'm saying they have hit an equilibrium on Scadrial for the most part, at least in the Basin.

 

2 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

Most of these problems apply to and even might worsen with Feruchemy, as apparently it existed before Preservation... Hey, wait a minute. If humans existed on the planet before Preservation, and Preservation's investiture is supposed to be the thing giving humans free will, what the hell was happening before Preservation and Ruin arrived? 

Scadrial and it's people were directly created by Ruin and Preservation. Humans didn't exist on the planet before, as there was no planet before they came along.

What's more, all three of the Metallic Arts spawned naturally between the interactions of Ruin, Preservation, and Scadrial. There were some more direct meddlings (like with Lerasium and the Well of Ascension), but all three magics could have existed simply by Scadrial being created the way it was.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243-hero-of-ages-qa-time-wasters-guide/#e6097

Chaos

Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codes, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76-shadows-of-self-chicago-signing/#e6321

Questioner

Allomancy is of Preservation, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes...

Questioner

What are Feruchemy and Hemalurgy of?

Brandon Sanderson

Hemalurgy is definitely of Ruin.

Questioner

Is it of pure Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. That's a very Ruin thing. And Feruchemy is more of a blend. Though… there is more philosophy to that and human construct—like the Allomantic table—than I think I’ve made clear before.

 

Quote

But Allomancy isn't just a spiritweb thing, someone with Allomancy has extra investiture. Does their Spiritweb somehow "tell" the preservation shard to provide more Investiture?

Allomancy is a Spiritweb thing.

The Allomantic powers are comprised of Investiture which is encoded within the Spiritweb,  which is why Hemalurgy can steal it.

This extra Investiture in the Spiritweb can be used to Connect to Preservation and draw more power for an active effect by metabolizing metals. The type of metal acts as a focus, telling the Investiture how to act.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e3405

mooglefrooglian

My question is, what 'causes' an effect in the end for Allomancy? You've got Investiture being filtered through a metal, but does putting it through the metal turn the Investiture cause a Steelpush, or is it putting the Investiture through your soul that causes it? At what point do you turn Preservation's Investiture into a Steelpush, or is there no one 'point' where it happens?

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, imagine you've got one of those play-dough machines you can stuff with dough, then press a handle on the top to make a little snake-like tube of play-dough squirt out.

Those have appendages you can affix to the front to change the shape of the tube that comes out. The metals are the appendage that determines the shape of the power released, but only certain souls can unlock those metals and use them.

It's nice to have another Sharder who's interested in the deeper Investiture mechanics 

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

Thanks. On a related note, how exactly is Allomancy passed down?

We know it has to do with a mechanic that is colloquially known as Spiritual DNA (sDNA) - but we do not know how that mechanic functions. 

Warbreaker Spoilers:

Spoiler

Just as every Nalthian's sDNA is what determines they are born with 1 Breath - and that would happen even if they were not born on Nalthis. The Scadrian sDNA includes the capacity for Allomancy, a child born with Allomancer's sDNA is born with a larger chunk of Preservation (and even that analysis is, at least partly, conjecture)

 

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

NutiketAiel (paraphrased)

If a native of Sel or another Shardworld traveled to Nalthis, would they be a drab?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, they would not be a drab. But, no one would be able to take their Breath.

NutiketAiel (paraphrased)

If such a person died on Nalthis, could they Return?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, they cannot Return.

NutiketAiel (paraphrased)

If such a person received breath, could they use BioChroma?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes

A Memory of Light Dayton Signing (Jan. 10, 2013)

Quote

Shardlet (paraphrased)

If a Scadrian allomancer had a baby with a Nalthian (and the baby was born on Nalthis), could the baby have an original Breath and also be a Natural allomancer?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It could happen, the baby would have a bit of Preservation and a bit of Endowment.

SpoCon 2013 (July 10, 2013)

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emailanimal

From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon...

chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon: Yes.

chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly.

This worries me somewhat because of the following observation.

Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second).

Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath.

Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing.

This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing.

I can see the following possible explanations to this:

1. Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well.

2. There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit).

Thoughts?

Brandon Sanderson

Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy.

Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born.

uchoo786

So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak.

General Reddit 2015 (Dec. 14, 2015)

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Questioner

In the last panel we talked a lot about people from different planets using magic systems on other planets, one of the things I've been thinking about, we've been thinking about, talking about Breath, and people being born with Breath, is that something specific to Nalthis or do, technically, other people on other planets have a Breath as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question and that is a Nalthian thing. Now, everyone in the cosmere to an extent has Investiture, the Nalthian Breath is part what everyone has and then a little extra, plus the ability to share it around. So a person who gives up their Breath on Nalthis is actually going below what a normal person has. But a normal person on Nalthis has more than somebody-- So if you were for instance to pick a world like Sixth of the Dusk, where there's not a Shard in residence, and you compared them to a Nalthian, Nalthian has an Investiture advantage over them. When they've given up their Breath, they have an Investiture disadvantage.

Bystander

So we're not Drabs?

Brandon Sanderson

So we're not Drabs. That's exactly it. We're not Drabs.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

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JoyBlu

In order to have a Breath, do you have to be native to Nalthis?

Brandon Sanderson

Not to be given Breaths, but people who are not native to Nalthis are not born with that Investiture.

JoyBlu

So, you have to be born on that planet?

Brandon Sanderson

There are exceptions. Most of the time.

JoyBlu

If both your parents were Nalthians, and they moved off planet, and they had a child that was born on a different planet—

Brandon Sanderson

It is possible for that child to have a Breath, but it would not continue too long. But yes, that child would probably have a Breath, depending...

Joyblu

If both of his parents had Breaths.

Brandon Sanderson

Mmmhmm.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

 

sDNA WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Master_Moridin

What is the relationship between blood and the Spiritual Realm? (Since Hemalurgy needs blood to graft the sDNA in a spike into someone else's sDNA)

Brandon Sanderson

The blood being in motion is part of it.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 28, 2012)

Quote

Questioner

The change in how the magic (on Scadrial) interact with each other, was that done by Sazed?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes it was. You will find a theme. The snapping in Mistborn is actually a repeated theme through a lot of the different magics. Um, but what I felt at the end of the day Sazed would do something about it. So, even though that is part of the magic system, he changed that. The change to Feruchemy is more a matter of other factors such as the large amount of interbreeding that happened following...and things like that. And so a lot of people with Feruchemy sDNA mixing with people with people with Allomantic sDNA has affected the way the magics blend, so to speak. That's not done by Sazed. That's just kind of an effect.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

Would Inquisitors' kids have Allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not usually. It happens sometimes, but not usually. He then mentioned a little about sDNA, but that it's not inherited as much as it is when it's natural.

Orem signing 2014 (Dec. 6, 2014)

Quote

Questioner

If you have a series of Inquisitors, like a family of Inquisitors having children for generations over...

Brandon Sanderson

Would the Hemalurgy influence the sDNA of the children? Is that what you are asking? That is a hypothesis that has merit in the way the magic system works (grin). It is not a supposition to be discarded out of hand.

Steelheart Seattle signing (Oct. 14, 2013)

Quote

Bean (paraphrased)

If a person took lerasium and alloyed it with Iron and steel then consumed them both at the same time, would they be able to burn exactly two metals?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Theoretically, yes. Because they were using Lerasium. He said it was because it overwrites sDNA.

Bean (paraphrased)

I asked something about if they were taken separately.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He said they would then only have one Metal.

Footnote: This contradicts what Brandon has previously established, that there is no canonical way of being able to burn more than one metal without being Mistborn or using Hemalurgy.
Firefight Phoenix signing (Jan. 21, 2015)

 

Hope that helps

[alder24]

4 hours ago, scientificmotif said:

Thanks. On a related note, how exactly is Allomancy passed down?

And I'll throw a few more WoBs too:

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

In order to use magic from one world on another world, do they need a bit of [the first world's] Shard with you?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It helps a lot. But there are other ways to do it. What's going on in the Cosmere is people have 3 sets of DNA. They have Physical DNA, Spiritual DNA, and Cognitive DNA. Their Spiritual DNA is what encodes the magic system into them, their Investiture. So if you can find a way to rewrite your Spiritual DNA, you can do all kinds of funky things. That's what Hemalurgy does. It rips off a piece of someone else's soul, staples it to yours. So if you went with a Hemalurgic spike to the right place, ripped off a piece of someone's soul and stapled it to yourself, you could create short circuits that will let you do all kinds of goofy stuff.

Words of Radiance Washington, DC signing (March 20, 2014)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Your magic systems are very structured, and specific rules that dominate them. But are there any universal laws that apply to all of the magic systems in the cosmere together?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there's several of them. Basically, the most important one and relevant to people who enjoy real physics is that I consider something called Investiture to be a third state of matter and energy. So, instead of e=mc^2, we have a third thing, Investiture, in there. And you can change Investiture to matter or to energy. And so, because of that, that law that you can do this, is where we see a lot of the cosmere magics living.

We also have a kind of rule that beings all exist, everything exists on three different levels. The Physical, the Spiritual, and the Cognitive. And, like we have DNA for our Physical self, we also have Mental DNA and Spiritual DNA, and all three influence one another. For instance, you couldn't test an Allomancer's blood and find the Allomancy gene, because it is in a different set of their DNA. You just have three sets. You could compose a test that could test it on the Spiritual Realm, but you're gonna have to use a different branch of physics to do that and determine who was an Allomancer. And so they all work on this kind of fundamental rules of: your Identity, your Connection, and being part of your soul, and the magics working through those things.

So there's some fundamental rules about this, about changing forms from energy to matter, and you having this Identity, Investiture, and Connection stored in your Spiritual DNA that are really relevant to everything.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Kurkistan

Is there-- Can you explain the relationship between Spiritual DNA, Spiritual aspects, and the spiritweb, or are they all just terms for the same thing?

Brandon Sanderson

They are all similar terms for the similar stuff, yeah.

Kurkistan

Okay. So it's not like the core is Spiritual DNA then things as you spread out is all Spiritual aspect?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

 

Spoiler

Argent (paraphrased)

Is spiritual DNA inherited the same as regular DNA?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Inherited similarly, but not 100% identically, to regular DNA.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 1, 2013)

 

Spoiler

PrncRny (paraphrased)

How and when is the type of Misting you become determined? Can you tell what type of Misting you are before you Snap?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It's determined at birth. The cosmere by combining 3 aspects of self. Your physical self, mental self, and spiritual self. The spiritual self is tied to the Investiture of the world that you come from. When an Allomancer snaps, a piece of their soul is broken and some of that power leaks into them, giving them their abilities.

Idaho Falls signing 2014 (Nov. 29, 2014)

 

[scientificmotif]

 

On 11/19/2024 at 11:33 AM, Trusk&#x27;our said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467-youtube-spoiler-stream-2/#e14740

Yoonseo Chang

Looking at Allomancy, you've mentioned that over time the power dilutes and each ability becomes less powerful. (for example a Tineye in Era 2 will generally be less powerful than one in Era 1) Does the same effect happen in Feruchemy as well? How would Feruchemy become less pure or diluted (other than Ferrings appearing)?

Brandon Sanderson

I have not gone as far with Feruchemy in that regard. I would say that if you're going to get a weakening of Feruchemy, which you're asking about, is the amount of stored attribute you get for lost attribute. There is decay there, you don't get a 1:1. Feruchemy generally I would say is not much weaker than it was before, a little bit but not much. This was done partially for narrative reasons. I wanted Allomancy... I wanted to back off a little on Allomancy and tell stories with it a little bit weaker. Again, mostly narrative reasons at this point. At this point on Scadrial, it's weakened about as much as it's going to because by this point people are having children that are more powerful because of the certain mixing. I'm not saying it's going up, I'm saying they have hit an equilibrium on Scadrial for the most part, at least in the Basin.

 

Scadrial and it's people were directly created by Ruin and Preservation. Humans didn't exist on the planet before, as there was no planet before they came along.

 

I could have sworn I read somewhere that "Feruchemy was there before ruin and preservation came to the planet", this makes everything make way more sense. Thanks.

 

On 11/19/2024 at 11:33 AM, Trusk&#x27;our said:

We don't know exactly yet.

It's genetic in nature, but it relies on spiritual DNA, not physical, so the rules are more subject to in-universe dictation. 

Allomancy is hardwritten into your Spiritweb based on your level of Preservation, though to actually utilize it you must Snap, which unlocks it somehow (I strongly suspect this is done by forging a bond between the person's Allomantic power and the Shard of Preservation).

This Connection between the Allomancer can then be used to trade metals for Investiture, which is shaped by the type of metal used.

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/385-orem-signing/#e12576

Snipexe

Is Allomancy a recessive or dominant gene?

Brandon Sanderson

It doesn't work according to Physical genetics, it works according to Spiritual genetics, and they don't work exactly the same way.

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/522-dragonsteel-2023/#e16270

Questioner

My question is about biology and genetics. We've seen that magical systems rely on *inaudible* genetics, like allomancy, or spiritual DNA. Can we use *inaudible* CRISPR to either weaponize or take someone's magical ability or give them a magical ability?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of. The in-world version of this is Hemalurgy, as you already know. There are methods that would do this, but straight genetics alone with CRISPR wouldn't do it. You need the spiritual component for these to work, almost assuredly. You might be able to use CRISPR... no, I don't think there are any of them it would work on. Is it possible you could make someone into a kandra? That may be possible, right? But I'm not 100% sure on that.

<redacted>

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270-the-hero-of-ages-annotations/#e8025

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Seventy

The Reason for the Mistsickness

So, it finally comes out. I wonder at this numbers plot, as I think many readers will glaze over it and ignore it. I think others will read into it and figure out what it means very quickly, then feel that the reveal here isn't much of a revelation. Hopefully I'll get a majority in the middle who read the clues, don't know what they mean, but are happily surprised when it comes together. That's a difficult line to walk sometimes.

What is going on here is that the mists are awakening the Allomantic potential inside of people. It's very rough on a person for that to come out, and can cause death. Preservation set this all up before he gave his consciousness to imprison Ruin, so it's not a perfect system. It's like a machine left behind by its creator. The catalyst is the return of the power to the Well of Ascension. As soon as that power becomes full, it sets the mists to begin Snapping those who have the potential for Allomancy buried within them.

Many of these people won't be very strong Allomancers. Their abilities were buried too deeply to have come out without the mists' intervention. Others will have a more typical level of power; they might have Snapped earlier, had they gone through enough anguish to bring the power out.

My idea on this is that Allomantic potential is a little like a supersaturated solution. You can suspend a great deal of something like sugar in a liquid when it is hot, then cool it down and the sugar remains suspended. Drop one bit of sugar in there as a catalyst, however, and the rest will fall out as a precipitate.

Allomancy is the same. It's in there, but it takes a reaction—in this case, physical anguish—to trigger it and bring it out. That's because the Allomantic power comes from the extra bit of Preservation inside of humans, that same extra bit that gives us free will. This bit is trapped between the opposing forces of Preservation and Ruin, and to come out and allow it the power to access metals and draw forth energy, it needs to fight its way through the piece of Ruin that is also there inside.

As has been established, Ruin's control over creatures—and, indeed, an Allomancer's control over them—grows weaker when that creature is going through some extreme emotions. (Like the koloss blood frenzy.) This has to do with the relationship between the Cognitive Realm, the Physical Realm, and the Spiritual Realm—of which I don't have time to speak right now.

Suffice it to say that there are people who have Snapped because of intense joy or other emotions. It just doesn't happen as frequently and is more difficult to control.

As a side note, Feruchemy weakens too, but the effects are much less pronounced. 

  Hide contents

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467-youtube-spoiler-stream-2/#e14740

Yoonseo Chang

Looking at Allomancy, you've mentioned that over time the power dilutes and each ability becomes less powerful. (for example a Tineye in Era 2 will generally be less powerful than one in Era 1) Does the same effect happen in Feruchemy as well? How would Feruchemy become less pure or diluted (other than Ferrings appearing)?

Brandon Sanderson

I have not gone as far with Feruchemy in that regard. I would say that if you're going to get a weakening of Feruchemy, which you're asking about, is the amount of stored attribute you get for lost attribute. There is decay there, you don't get a 1:1. Feruchemy generally I would say is not much weaker than it was before, a little bit but not much. This was done partially for narrative reasons. I wanted Allomancy... I wanted to back off a little on Allomancy and tell stories with it a little bit weaker. Again, mostly narrative reasons at this point. At this point on Scadrial, it's weakened about as much as it's going to because by this point people are having children that are more powerful because of the certain mixing. I'm not saying it's going up, I'm saying they have hit an equilibrium on Scadrial for the most part, at least in the Basin.

 

This half-answers my question (Thanks). But my most crucial question of "Where does the Investiture come from?" still remains. That's what I meant when I said it's "not just a spirit-web thing", I didn't mean that other factors affect someone's allomancy, I meant that Allomancers/Feruchemists are more Invested than others without the Metallic Arts, and that investiture has to have come from somewhere.   I will go start a new thread and discuss how newborns get Investiture, since it would be wise to discuss other books... Although this

On 11/19/2024 at 6:41 AM, alder24 said:

This investiture in a person's soul came from the Shard and the Spiritual Realm and that's where the leaked investiture goes back. It simply returns to the Spiritual Realm and later continues in the cycle of investiture returning back to the Physical Realm in one way or another.

  Hide contents

Skyler Cecil

Is there an Investiture cycle on Roshar? Cycling through the crem rain and flora and fauna back into the storm, or something like that. Like the water cycle. If Investiture is finite, is it recycled back into the Cosmere when Investiture like Breath or Stormlight is expended? Otherwise, wouldn't Investiture run out?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is such a cycle. It is renewed and changed time and time again. It gets in and out of the Spiritual Realm, often with the birth of new individuals.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018)

 

at least says something about it.

[Trusk'our he/him]

29 minutes ago, scientificmotif said:

I could have sworn I read somewhere that "Feruchemy was there before ruin and preservation came to the planet", this makes everything make way more sense. Thanks.

Glad I could be useful. 

29 minutes ago, scientificmotif said:

But my most crucial question of "Where does the Investiture come from?" still remains. That's what I meant when I said it's "not just a spirit-web thing", I didn't mean that other factors affect someone's allomancy, I meant that Allomancers/Feruchemists are more Invested than others without the Metallic Arts, and that investiture has to have come from somewhere.

I think it's most likely that this extra Investiture available in naturally occurring Allomancy, Feruchemy, and even Hemalurgy does come from the Shards Ruin and Preservation, but not from power directly available to the Vessels.

We know the Shard has virtually limitless power, but Vessels have a finite mind, and thus finite access. There are even cases where Vessels can find Investiture associated with their Intent on other worlds and upon discovery tweak it to their liking. 

General Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/315-general-reddit-2018/#e9385

ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

This would also explain why naturally occurring Allomancy didn't seem to continue to unbalance the two Shards in Era 1 (at least this is how I see it).

Otherwise, the more Scadrians born or Allomancers burning metals should have continued to weaken Preservation as a larger portion of that Shard was locked up in their Spiritwebs or temporarily expended like Ruin's lost Investiture in Atium. 

Edited November 22, 2024 by Trusk'our

[scientificmotif]

So, in other words, newborns generally somehow pull in Investiture from the "part" of the SR "associated" with their world? Hmm, that can be made sense of... maybe SDNA can say how much Investiture a soul should pull in, and therefore pull in such-and-such amount of Preservation's Investiture to become such-and-such power level in Allomancy (when they snap). So, an average person might have a SDNA Investiture gene of 2 Preservation units and 1 Ruin unit, a Misting might have 8 Preservation units and a Ruin unit, and a Mistborn might have 30 SDNAPU, and Lerasium might grant 150 SDNAPU. Children born off-world of their parents might somehow end up with different SDNA Investiture "commands":

Quote

Swanson188

Would you say that the genetic investitures are the result of a specific gene only available in their system of origin, or are they a trait that CAN exist in other systems (but lack the shard's key to access it)?

The best example I can think of is could a feruchemist be born on Roshar, but not know it because preservation is not present there in the physical realm?

Brandon Sanderson

So, the way I have it right now, that couldn't happen. Your spiritual DNA, so to speak, has to do with your connection to certain Shards--and for a genetic component to occur, certain location-dependent things need to happen. It's a good question, though, and not impossible in the future of the cosmere as certain events proceed.

So maybe a Scadrian born on Roshar would end up with SDNA saying to pull Investiture units from Honor, Odium, and Cultivation instead.

Sound like a decent theory?

[Trusk'our he/him]

53 minutes ago, scientificmotif said:

So, in other words, newborns generally somehow pull in Investiture from the "part" of the SR "associated" with their world? Hmm, that can be made sense of... maybe SDNA can say how much Investiture a soul should pull in, and therefore pull in such-and-such amount of Preservation's Investiture to become such-and-such power level in Allomancy (when they snap). So, an average person might have a SDNA Investiture gene of 2 Preservation units and 1 Ruin unit, a Misting might have 8 Preservation units and a Ruin unit, and a Mistborn might have 30 SDNAPU, and Lerasium might grant 150 SDNAPU. Children born off-world of their parents might somehow end up with different SDNA Investiture "commands":

So maybe a Scadrian born on Roshar would end up with SDNA saying to pull Investiture units from Honor, Odium, and Cultivation instead.

Sound like a decent theory?

(We're beginning to move toward Cosmere-wide stuff, but I'll try to refrain from spoilers) 

If I understand you correctly, this seems to be the case from what I know, yes.

Being born on a Shardworld will always grant you an extra level of Innate Investiture associated with that Shard, though extra steps usually need to be taken to cultivate, access, or enhance that power, like Snapping in Allomancy. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/224-words-of-radiance-san-francisco-signing/#e6881

Questioner

On all the cosmere worlds, it seem as if-- do all the humans have what you call innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's see...

*thinks*

I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet.

Questioner

Because when they don't have Breath anymore, they would get Drabs, and those don't have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

They don't have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar.

Questioner

Which Shard is that?

Brandon Sanderson

You'll have to read and find out. *gives card*

So yes, I don't think you've seen any worlds where they don't.

The steps necessary to do so correspond to the Intent of the Shard in question. 

However, Lerasium boosted Allomancy is more of an artificial effort directly made by the Vessel of Preservation, so it's a bit weird- Allomancers born with its power have spiritual DNA that draws more Investiture from Preservation, though this goes against the level of natural Connection granted by simply being born on a Shardworld (which may be part of why this Investiture advantage weakens over generations).

As a tangent, natural Allomancy is much weaker, but I think if a population of humans were to move to Scadrial and live through a few generations they'd start seeing a development of weak Allomancy, even though it's considered purely genetic (I reason this because a significant portion of spiritual DNA's roll is played by Connection, so even if not created by Preservation or descendant of one, simply being associated with Preservation by being born on Scadrial may suffice like with any other Shardworld).

Edited November 23, 2024 by Trusk'our

[Duxredux he/him]

On 11/19/2024 at 8:56 AM, scientificmotif said:

Thanks. On a related note, how exactly is Allomancy passed down? There's no evidence of anyone losing Investiture when their children are born, so the investiture must come directly from the Preservation shard on birth, presumably automatically, as if Preservation somehow "programmed" the shard to give newborn Investiture automatically. But Allomancy isn't just a spiritweb thing, someone with Allomancy has extra investiture. Does their Spiritweb somehow "tell" the preservation shard to provide more Investiture? But why, then, would Allomancy weaken over time? Most of these problems apply to and even might worsen with Feruchemy, as apparently it existed before Preservation... Hey, wait a minute. If humans existed on the planet before Preservation, and Preservation's investiture is supposed to be the thing giving humans free will, what the hell was happening before Preservation and Ruin arrived? Actually, I should start a new thread in general Cosmere Q&A before this leaks into asking about other shards and minor shardworlds and their life being Invested...

Yes. If you read the post, then it is not maybe, it is definetly.

If we're still on the subject of how children gain their Investiture, I would guess is that the mechanism is more mundane but incredibly complex to extrapolate or predict. I think it's the same as prenatal development and genetics IRL, particularly if you're talking about immigrants who are moving to a new country or even a new continent. The human body regenerates itself by eating matter, generally acquired locally but not always, and incorporating the matter into its body by using mass to propagate cells, and it procreates with similar mechanisms. The power of Ruin and Preservation isn't tied just into the people, but of the very substance of the world - to a certain extent every time a Scadrian eats food they are ingesting a small bit of Ruin and Preservation. The parents' DNA/sDNA absolutely affect the child and their predisposition for genetic abilities, but it is the mother that consumes and provides the nutrients that builds up the body and presumably the spiritweb of the child. Any diseases, substances, stressors, etc. affecting the mother in turn are factors in how the child develops. I learned from a career NICU nurse that newborns who are suffering drug withdrawals have a distinctive cry and distress now that they are no longer receiving the drugs passed from the mother. Same as when child birth weights vary by country due to nutrition available to the parents. Environmental factors like air quality. Whether or not the mother gets the shot with the slew of vaccinations targeting the infant during labor. All affect development, not just genetics - though genetics is probably the biggest factor.  

As for Allomancy and Feruchemy genetics, this is not meant to be derogatory in any manner, but I would think of it as starting with a purebred prize dog or horse. Generally the breeder worked hard to select for very specific genes and traits and the pedigree of the progeny influences the likelihood of the offspring bearing the same trait. Dilution of that trait into the community is probable - particularly since the phenotype of allomancy may be less noticeable than say the color of hair. During the days of the final empire, Allomancy may have been passed on through Allomantic Gnat nobility who may have believed that they didn't need to follow the same restrictions as their Misting siblings or cousins.

Another way of looking at this - is the immigrant fully integrated into the diet, culture and lifestyle of the new land, or are they insular, preferring to cultivate the foods and diet of their own land when possible, rejecting foreign influence? They probably can't escape difference in soil type when cultivating crops, but they can slow the integration. From this, I think there is something to the Terris working to condense Feruchemical bloodlines in Era 2 with isolationist practices. 

Brandon's probably added another layer to sDNA, but IRL DNA and prenatal development is incredibly complicated as it is. I doubt it would have distinguishable units of Shardic influence, since genetics is waaay more complicated than simple math. For that matter, some genes get triggered by environment, so... yeah. Maybe you can't Snap off of Scadrial without the right environmental conditions.

11 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

As a tangent, natural Allomancy is much weaker, but I think if a population of humans were to move to Scadrial and live through a few generations they'd start seeing a development of weak Allomancy, even though it's considered purely genetic (I reason this because a significant portion of spiritual DNA's roll is played by Connection, so even if not created by Preservation or descendant of one, simply being associated with Preservation by being born on Scadrial may suffice like with any other Shardworld).

I doubt it, because Skaa were a thing - unless you're talking about intermarriage through a couple of generations. Allomancy requires a minimum threshold to manifest - though it is worth noting that Wax as a very weak Mistborn with augmented A-Steel could use the other metals even in a weakened form. Wonder if that's a factor of Lerasium or that he had already Snapped as a full Misting at the lower threshold set by Harmony.

Edited November 23, 2024 by Duxredux

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

I doubt it, because Skaa were a thing - unless you're talking about intermarriage through a couple of generations. Allomancy requires a minimum threshold to manifest - though it is worth noting that Wax as a very weak Mistborn with augmented A-Steel could use the other metals even in a weakened form. Wonder if that's a factor of Lerasium or that he had already Snapped as a full Misting at the lower threshold set by Harmony.

All Scadrians have some small potential to Snap and manifest Allomancy (except perhaps for Feruchemists without Lerasium or Lerasium ancestry, as the two Metallic Arts genes split and further weaken each other). It's just very rare in its natural form, so it was likely overlooked in the Final Empire. 

Alendi was a Seeker before Lerasium was discovered, and the southern Scadrians do have Allomancy despite having no Lerasium genes, though it's a very rare, weak version. 

Spoiler

Hero of Ages Epigraphs, 62: 

I suspect that Alendi, the man Rashek killed, was himself a Misting—a Seeker. Allomancy, however, was a different thing in those days, and much more rare. The Allomancers alive in our day are the descendants of the men who ate those few beads of Preservation's power. They formed the foundation of the nobility, and were the first to name him emperor. The power in these few beads was so concentrated that it could last through ten centuries of breeding and inheritance.

My thinking is that Lerasium's effects on Allomancy is comparable to how Ruin pushed on the fabric of Scadrial pre Catacendre, bolstering Hemalurgy, just using a more indirect route. 

Edited November 23, 2024 by Trusk'our

[Duxredux he/him]

52 minutes ago, Trusk&#x27;our said:

All Scadrians have some small potential to Snap and manifest Allomancy (except perhaps for Feruchemists without Lerasium or Lerasium ancestry, as the two Metallic Arts genes split and further weaken each other). It's just very rare in its natural form, so it was likely overlooked in the Final Empire. 

Alendi was a Seeker before Lerasium was discovered, and the southern Scadrians do have Allomancy despite having no Lerasium genes, though it's a very rare, weak version. 

  Hide contents

Hero of Ages Epigraphs, 62: 

I suspect that Alendi, the man Rashek killed, was himself a Misting—a Seeker. Allomancy, however, was a different thing in those days, and much more rare. The Allomancers alive in our day are the descendants of the men who ate those few beads of Preservation's power. They formed the foundation of the nobility, and were the first to name him emperor. The power in these few beads was so concentrated that it could last through ten centuries of breeding and inheritance.

My thinking is that Lerasium's effects on Allomancy is comparable to how Ruin pushed on the fabric of Scadrial pre Catacendre, bolstering Hemalurgy, just using a more indirect route. 

Unfortunately, Brandon gave himself wiggle room here, that I don't know if I can confidently say the answer. Annotations state that Alendi was one of the very first Allomancers, and that he Snapped when the Deepness came. The Coppermind also notes that the Mists raised the Allomantic potential of the population at the end of HoA so that 16% of all exposed were Snapped - which was occuring by design, not by happenstance. I'm still not convinced that Allomancy occurs naturally without being directly injected into the population either by the Mists or Lerasium. I'm not even sure if we know how many cycles the Well of Ascension refilled and if the Mists came to Snap the people each time and if the rare Allomancers in the Classical Era were vestiges from an even earlier Deepness.

Spoiler

Also, as a note, Alendi was an Allomancer, as the epigraph notes here. He had to be—he heard the pulsing at the Well of Ascension when nobody else could. "Ah," you might say, "but I thought that you said Allomancy didn't exist before those beads." That isn't 100% true. The legends say that Allomancy came with the Deepness. Alendi was one of the very first Allomancers, and he gained his powers as the mists began to cover the world.

That's important.

Because, of course, he was Snapped by the mists, like is happening to people in this book.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Unfortunately, Brandon gave himself wiggle room here, that I don't know if I can confidently say the answer. Annotations state that Alendi was one of the very first Allomancers, and that he Snapped when the Deepness came. The Coppermind also notes that the Mists raised the Allomantic potential of the population at the end of HoA so that 16% of all exposed were Snapped - which was occuring by design, not by happenstance. I'm still not convinced that Allomancy occurs naturally without being directly injected into the population either by the Mists or Lerasium. I'm not even sure if we know how many cycles the Well of Ascension refilled and if the Mists came to Snap the people each time and if the rare Allomancers in the Classical Era were vestiges from an even earlier Deepness.

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Also, as a note, Alendi was an Allomancer, as the epigraph notes here. He had to be—he heard the pulsing at the Well of Ascension when nobody else could. "Ah," you might say, "but I thought that you said Allomancy didn't exist before those beads." That isn't 100% true. The legends say that Allomancy came with the Deepness. Alendi was one of the very first Allomancers, and he gained his powers as the mists began to cover the world.

That's important.

Because, of course, he was Snapped by the mists, like is happening to people in this book.

You make a good argument for Alendi. And you're right, there's lots of wiggle room there.

What about the southern continent of Scadrial though? They've developed airships that rely on Steelpushing to run their propulsion, and Allik immediately knows how to use a primer cube to harness Wax's Allomancy in BoM. 

I strongly believe this points to Allomancy existing amongst the southern Scadrians (and their airships' Allomancy not solely being a result of the Excisors or medallion tech, but actual Allomancers priming the Harmonium), who as far as we know have no Lerasium genes.

There could have been other shenanigans going on (the Mists could have boosted them offscreen), but until further evidence is available I believe the evidence suggests Allomancy can naturally occur from just being Scadrian. It's just, very, very unlikely (and weak) without artificial aid.

Edited November 23, 2024 by Trusk'our

[alder24]

5 hours ago, Duxredux said:

I'm still not convinced that Allomancy occurs naturally without being directly injected into the population either by the Mists or Lerasium.

It does happen, but it's very, very rare.

Spoiler

Comatose

So here's my last question. If there ARE people on the other side of the world, did Vin kill them all by placing the sun on their side, or do they have they're own Ruin/Preservation battle going on over there as well? Do they also have allomancy feruchemy and hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they're not dead. Yes, Rashek was aware of them. In fact, he placed them there as a reserve. I knew he wanted a 'control' group of people in case his changes to genetics ended with the race being in serious trouble. All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created. And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them—though without anyone among them having burned Lerasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of.

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

[scientificmotif]

On 11/23/2024 at 9:32 AM, Trusk&#x27;our said:

You make a good argument for Alendi. And you're right, there's lots of wiggle room there.

What about the southern continent of Scadrial though? They've developed airships that rely on Steelpushing to run their propulsion, and Allik immediately knows how to use a primer cube to harness Wax's Allomancy in BoM. 

I strongly believe this points to Allomancy existing amongst the southern Scadrians (and their airships' Allomancy not solely being a result of the Excisors or medallion tech, but actual Allomancers priming the Harmonium), who as far as we know have no Lerasium genes.

There could have been other shenanigans going on (the Mists could have boosted them offscreen), but until further evidence is available I believe the evidence suggests Allomancy can naturally occur from just being Scadrian. It's just, very, very unlikely (and weak) without artificial aid.

An extreme rarity of Allomancy might help to explain why they worship Metalborn so much

[Trusk'our he/him]

10 minutes ago, scientificmotif said:

An extreme rarity of Allomancy might help to explain why they worship Metalborn so much

That and probably Kelsier's influence. Convincing a continent of people to revere Metalborn is extremely convenient when you're Mistborn, yes?

It's also possible that their concept of divinity in Metalborn stems from Kelsier informing them of Preservation putting more of himself in such individuals. As such, they carry pieces of divinity within. 

[Isilel]

6 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

That and probably Kelsier's influence. Convincing a continent of people to revere Metalborn is extremely convenient when you're Mistborn, yes?

 

Though according to TLM he wasn't one any longer after acquiring a body again, so who knows?

Regarding the priming cubes, the Mawlish must have had a way to preserve their charges for a decently long time, since their Metalborn are far too rare for  airships to have  Coinshots on board. And given that allomantic medallions don't seem to exist.

Edited November 26, 2024 by Isilel

[Trusk'our he/him]

23 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Though according to TLM he wasn't one any longer after acquiring a body again, so who knows?

I meant more along the lines of him lying about it to them like with the Ghostbloods. Then he could fake his way to religious status amongst them if needed (especially if he could someday regain his powers as he wishes).

25 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Regarding the priming cubes, the Mawlish must have had a way to preserve their charges for a decently long time, since their Metalborn are far too rare for  airships to have  Coinshots on board. And given that allomantic medallions don't seem to exist.

Possibly. The cubes in TLM couldn't hold a charge for super long though (maybe a day or so if I recall), so I'm a bit skeptical. 

We don't know exactly how rare they are, so maybe they do just have a Coinshot or Lurcher on each larger vessel. 

Perhaps since Allomancers are only needed to kickstart the initial process so the Harmonium can pick it up they can be at ports for airships. Sort of like a car battery that dies whenever turned off and needs to be jumpstarted manually. 

[Isilel]

12 hours ago, Trusk&#x27;our said:

Possibly. The cubes in TLM couldn't hold a charge for super long though (maybe a day or so if I recall), so I'm a bit skeptical.

 

Sure, but we never learned how they are normally stored. Maybe they are sealed in aluminum and that lets them keep the charge for much longer before the seal is breached.  Personally, I think that if nothing else, that's how it will work in the future, once aluminum becomes abundant. Allik was quite careful not to share that much technological knowledge with Our Protagonists, and he was also the only one making and servicing allomantic grenades in TLM, again without sharing the specifics. But the crew of Brunstall intended to spend days or weeks at the temple and I very much doubt that they were going to let their main engine run  the whole time. They also would have needed a way to jump-start cutters.

Now, it is possible that you can charge the priming cubes from an already running engine and that they had  small ones functioning like  fire-pots did for primitive humans, before they learned to start fires on their own. But it does sound very risky to go on lengthy expeditions into unknown with such a system, though it could work for routine transport within Mawlish lands.

 

12 hours ago, Trusk&#x27;our said:

We don't know exactly how rare they are, so maybe they do just have a Coinshot or Lurcher on each larger vessel. 

 

Something like that could work in the Basin, but given the often reitirated and stressed rarity of Metalborn in the South, I don't see it. I like your idea of there  being some relevant Metalborn being stationed at major airports to provide charging service, though.