MarcieIsForager She/They Posted November 8, 2024 Posted November 8, 2024 So i kinda toyed with timelines and Rosharan history these past few days and something stuck out to me again. So theres a WOB saying the Heralds are the ages they appear as, and are all originally Ashynian. Which would mean the Heralds wouldve come about pretty much just after humanities arrival on Roshar. But before the Eila Stele was written, the Eila Stele speaks of what i interpret to be Spren-Surgebinding "of Surges and Spren" rather than Ashynian Surgebinding. And Rosharan Surgebinding was essentially Spren imitating the Honorblades. If Heralds in that case predate the conquering of Roshar by humans, they would also predate the Fused which could mean two things They received the Honorblades seperately from the Oathpact, or the Oathpact was originally different. The Stormfather spoke about breaking the Heralds if that was Tanavast poking through could it be forcing the Heralds into a role they didn't want during the initial conquest of Roshar.
alder24 Posted November 8, 2024 Posted November 8, 2024 3 hours ago, MarcieIsForager said: So i kinda toyed with timelines and Rosharan history these past few days and something stuck out to me again. So theres a WOB saying the Heralds are the ages they appear as, and are all originally Ashynian. Which would mean the Heralds wouldve come about pretty much just after humanities arrival on Roshar. But before the Eila Stele was written, the Eila Stele speaks of what i interpret to be Spren-Surgebinding "of Surges and Spren" rather than Ashynian Surgebinding. And Rosharan Surgebinding was essentially Spren imitating the Honorblades. If Heralds in that case predate the conquering of Roshar by humans, they would also predate the Fused which could mean two things They received the Honorblades seperately from the Oathpact, or the Oathpact was originally different. The Stormfather spoke about breaking the Heralds if that was Tanavast poking through could it be forcing the Heralds into a role they didn't want during the initial conquest of Roshar. I don't fully understand what you mean. The term Surge and Surgebinding is a Rosharan name for all kinds of magics and invested arts. Just because the Eila Stele calls what humans used a Surge, doesn't mean they referred specifically to the Rosharan Surgebinding. The Ashyn was destroyed using Ashynite Surgebinding, people came to Roshar using Ashynite Surgebinding, Rosharan Dawnsingers would recognize it as Surgebinding and call it as such. The Eila Stele said that they came from another world using Surgebinding. So Heralds didn't receive their Honorblade before they arrived on Roshar (if that's what you were confused about). But there is some weirdness involved here. People were asking why would Heralds get Honorblades if they weren't meant to fight in repetitive Desolations? Why did Honor give them weapons, if they were meant to just trap Fused forever on Braize? There is some uncertainty here and it's possible that Honorblades were given to them before the Oathpact was made. Quote They came from another world, using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges. They destroyed their lands and have come to us begging. Spoiler Kimbobhi Is it possible to Surgebind using gaseous Investiture other than Roshar's? Brandon Sanderson So here's the thing. It depends on your definition of Surgebinding. Surgebinding would be the Rosharan definition of all of the magics. They would call the Metallic Arts Surgebinding. You are binding the powers of creation, which the word "Surge" is that word translated from Rosharan into English, that's what the word means in Rosharan, is the powers of creation. The fundamental forces which inspired me to make this. So they would consider all of them to be Surgebinding. And that's just what you're doing, you are binding and using those powers. [...] YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020) Spoiler Argent In the Syl interlude in Rhythm of War, she is speaking with Dalinar about his powers and the things those powers have done in the past. And what she says is "a Bondsmith bound other Surges". First of all, what other Surges? Brandon Sanderson One potential interpretation for you on this, remember they use Surge and spren sometimes interchangeably in-world. Just making you aware of that. Argent Yeah I'm aware of that. Bound other Surges.... Argent Then the term Bondsmith. To me it seems like she's talking about Ishar and the Ashyn stuff. So would they use Bondsmith to describe him in that place? Brandon Sanderson That might be what she's talking about. I'm not guaranteeing it. Brandon Sanderson So one other thing to keep aware of in the cosmere - for instance they call "Lightweaving" any illusion-based magic working on the same fundamentals. And so you could argue - and people will use it that way in-world - that Bondsmithing is both an order [of Knights Radiant] and a power that exists outside the order. Argent And that would be maybe the power of Connection, the way Lightweaving is the power of illusion? Brandon Sanderson Yes. And for instance, there were not Elsecallers to get people between Ashyn and Roshar, but on Roshar they would explain what happened there as Elsecalling. Does that make sense? Argent I mean, as much as these things make sense, yes. JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021) 1
MarcieIsForager She/They Posted November 8, 2024 Author Posted November 8, 2024 (edited) 50 minutes ago, alder24 said: I don't fully understand what you mean. The term Surge and Surgebinding is a Rosharan name for all kinds of magics and invested arts. Just because the Eila Stele calls what humans used a Surge, doesn't mean they referred specifically to the Rosharan Surgebinding. The Ashyn was destroyed using Ashynite Surgebinding, people came to Roshar using Ashynite Surgebinding, Rosharan Dawnsingers would recognize it as Surgebinding and call it as such. The Eila Stele said that they came from another world using Surgebinding. So Heralds didn't receive their Honorblade before they arrived on Roshar (if that's what you were confused about). But there is some weirdness involved here. People were asking why would Heralds get Honorblades if they weren't meant to fight in repetitive Desolations? Why did Honor give them weapons, if they were meant to just trap Fused forever on Braize? There is some uncertainty here and it's possible that Honorblades were given to them before the Oathpact was made. Ah no its not that specifically its that the Eila Stele mentioned powers "of spren and Surges", i took that to mean that by the time the Eila Stele had been written that humans had managed to figure out Rosharan Surgebinding. So maybe this also has to do with how i read the Eila Stele because i honestly didn't read the first sentence as a history of humans, i read it as like a foreboding description, like "they are off-worlders and figured out rosharan-surgebinding which was forbidden from us" rather than "they are off-worlders that came here by Ashinite Surgebinding, which has been forbidden from us" Which then kind of messed up my internal timeline because it would mean the Honorblades predate the first cycle of Desolations. Mostly because i assume the Eila Stele is a Pre-Desolation writing. Edited November 8, 2024 by MarcieIsForager
+Lewis Nethur He/Him Posted November 8, 2024 Posted November 8, 2024 (edited) I think there might be a point of confusion regarding terminology and technological distinction here maybe...? =/ My general understanding is that what we typically consider "ashyn" styles of "surgebinding" is the creation of artifacts that operate by harnessing the power of an intelligently consenting imprisoned spren, and what we consider to be a Rosharn form of surgebinding is any kind which either draws directly from a bonded Radiant-Spren, or from an "involuntary" spren which has been specifically imprisoned inside of a gemstone. If it helps, my understanding is that the Heralds specifically operated outside of some of the normal rules during the transition between worlds while converting between and exploring the various magic systems, and that the governing rules of the forces in question may have changed themselves during that process as well. Assigning specific orders of events is likely only ever going to be "possible" by direct specific heraldic confirmation at this point I suspect, as these types of questions operated on a large enough historical scale that the subtle changes in overarching human perception regarding the forces of nature comes into play in full force... Hopefully that helps! (At least a tiny bit) Edited November 8, 2024 by Lewis Nethur 1
alder24 Posted November 8, 2024 Posted November 8, 2024 6 hours ago, Lewis Nethur said: My general understanding is that what we typically consider "ashyn" styles of "surgebinding" is the creation of artifacts that operate by harnessing the power of an intelligently consenting imprisoned spren, and what we consider to be a Rosharn form of surgebinding is any kind which either draws directly from a bonded Radiant-Spren, or from an "involuntary" spren which has been specifically imprisoned inside of a gemstone. You mean Fabrials are Ashynite Surgebinding? No, they are magic-tech. Fabrials are actually a safer way of doing Surgebinding than Nahel Bond and they would be incapable of destroying Ashyn, even when a Dawnshard is involved. Ashynite Surgebinding is also related to the Old Magic, which is separate from Fabrials. The magic of Ashyn right now is disease-based, but it wasn't always like this and the destruction of Ashyn changed it. There is also no mention of Splinter presence on Ashyn in Rosharan Essay in Arcanum Unbounded. Brandon kind of counts Fabrials as a Rosharan magic system alongside Old Magic and Surgebinding. With all of this (and probably more) it seems unlikely that Fabrials originated on Ashyn. Yumi spoilers: Spoiler Spren manifesting as Fabrials is something that Splinters in general can just do - Spirits on Komashi can manifest as fabrial-like devices. This is even something unique to Roshar. Spoiler alercah The Sleepless presumably do not want her to swear a Radiant oath because she would be able to use the Dawnshard in conjunction with Surgebinding, and we know that that combination already destroyed one planet in the system so it's pretty understandable. But there were a bunch of Soulcasters lying around and they didn't seem bothered. So is this one of the differences between Radiant Soulcasting and Soulcasting via the fabrial? That the Dawnshard cannot be used alongside the fabrial? Brandon Sanderson So, the Sleepless ARE capable of Radiant bonds. (I believe the back jacket of the first book implies as much, if I remember correctly.) However, things they at first thought were great are making them increasingly worried, for reasons that will come up (not related to them specifically) in this book and the next. Soulcasting via a fabrial is way, way less dangerous than Radiant Soulcasting--which is in turn far less dangerous than unbound Soulcasting (meaning without oaths.) FirebreatherRay We've seen that the interpretation of the oaths is largely up to each individual spren (to the point that we've seen an entire Order of Radiants change their allegiance). Would it be possible for there to be a "sociopathic spren" that has interpreted the oaths so radically differently from the rest of their kind that it appears, to an outsider, that they are unbound in the same way the wielder of an honorblade is unbound? Or is there something essential about the nature of spren that prevents this? Brandon Sanderson I think that spren could go further than we've seen so far, and indeed, many of the older Skybreakers might be horrified by how far their order has gone. However, there are SOME fundamentals that even a spren with a very different interpretation wouldn't be able to abandon. Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020) Spoiler Paleo (paraphrased) Are the Ashynite magic system, in which micro organisms cause diseases and bestow powers, and the Old Magic related? You could sort of see the powers and the disease as a boon and a curse. If so, does the "Old" part come from that? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes, they are related, but the name comes from the magic actually predating spren bonds. Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019) Spoiler beer_in_an_esky 1) Is Ashyn still operating on a sickness-based magic, as indicated in the readings you've done previously? Or are you not ready to canonise that? 2) Assuming it is, was the use of Investiture on Ashyn always sickness-based? 3) If someone who is sick on Ashyn leaves while still unwell, would they still have powers? How about any people they infect on the new world? Brandon Sanderson 1) Ashyn still has that magic, though I've gone a lot of directions on how I want the culture to feel, so I wouldn't consider that canon yet. 2) No. 3) The powers come directly via the micro-organisms, similar to other symbiotic relationships in the cosmere. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 4, 2018) Spoiler R'Shara So on Ashyn, was the magic system always diseased based? Brandon Sanderson That was the diseased based magic. R'Shara Yeah, before- Brandon Sanderson I'll RAFO that. It isn't exactly the same as it was. Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018) Spoiler Rhandric How many magic systems are there on Roshar? Brandon Sanderson It depends on your definition. Is Windrunning its own magic system, or is it a division of a larger magic system? Are the ten different Surges each their own magic system, or...it's really how... Rhandric If you assume the surges are considered one. Brandon Sanderson Well then you would have Surgebinding, and the Old Magic, those are two at least, and there are things that are not explained in those at all, and how do you count creating fabrials? Is that a science and not a magic? Is that its own magic system? Questioner 2 It's a science, because anyone can do it. [...] Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014) Spoiler rags You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 Surgebindings and 10 Voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it. Brandon Sanderson Fabrials are part of it. 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012) 2
+Lewis Nethur He/Him Posted November 8, 2024 Posted November 8, 2024 Sorry, I probably responded too fast on this one; mostly just meant to convey that the early relics that were left behind for Rosharns to discover are legitimately based on some alien principles that should never be expected to fully be definable and conforming with their existing frameworks and systems. They're like...weird deviant legacy products, but not in a disparaging way. I'm reaching for metaphors here that don't exist for a very good reason.
+Oltux72 he/him Posted November 11, 2024 Posted November 11, 2024 On 11/8/2024 at 2:34 PM, MarcieIsForager said: So maybe this also has to do with how i read the Eila Stele because i honestly didn't read the first sentence as a history of humans, i read it as like a foreboding description, like "they are off-worlders and figured out rosharan-surgebinding which was forbidden from us" rather than "they are off-worlders that came here by Ashinite Surgebinding, which has been forbidden from us" The Dawnsingers must have been aware of Regals. The songs mention them in detail. They cannot have been originally made by bonding voidspren, as that shows the signs of corruption.
+Child of Hodor Posted November 11, 2024 Posted November 11, 2024 The Heralds were patterned off the Fused who were a byproduct of the First Desolation (humans invading Singer territory) so the humans traveling to Roshar had to come first. The Fused kept returning taking over another Singer's body. The soon-to-be Heralds and Honor saw that and countered it with an improved version: souls that regrow their own body instead of having to take someone else's. There weren't nearly as many Heralds as Fused, but they were given Honorblades making them far more powerful. Quote SOULS OF CREATURES THAT HAD BEEN SLAIN, ANGRY AND TERRIBLE. THEY HAD BEEN GIVEN GREAT POWER BY THE ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED ODIUM. ...THEY ARE REBORN USING THE BODIES OF PARSHMEN TO BECOME THE FUSED. AND EVEN BEFORE THE FUSED LEARNED TO COMMAND THE SURGES, MEN COULD NOT FIGHT THEM ... AND SO, THE OATHPACT. Stormfather in OB Ch. 38 The Honorblades were a "gift of a god" according to the Stormfather in OB ch. 16 According to Brandon the Honorblades were a gift symbolizing them standing up for mankind and when the Heralds were no longer willing to do that they left the Honorblades behind because they didn't deserve them. All this heavily implies a noble purpose to the Honorblades and not just conquest. Quote Questioner When the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, why did they believe they needed to leave their Honorblades behind as they disbanded? Did they know what would happen to their blades after they left them? Brandon Sanderson There's a couple things going on here. If you've read Way of Kings Prime, there is built, originally into the Honorblades, the ability to find other Honorblades by using them. This has not been canonized into the cosmere as it exists yet, but it is still a power that's in the back of my mind, it is most likely something you can access with the Honorblades: let you find the others. This is calling back to the old Fred Saberhagen Swords books, which were part of the inspiration for these. So one reason they would leave them behind, the lesser reason, is: they're supposed to go split up, and they don't want to see each other. They want to leave them behind, because it's like: "The others might be able to find me. We're going our separate ways. We are done." But the greater reason, the canon reason, that you can cite is that idea of: "I am walking away from being a Herald. This was the gift I was given, and a representation of that gift I was given, that represents me standing up for humankind. And I am no longer willing to do that, so I have to give this thing up." And they all knew it. They didn't have to be told it, because they knew what they were doing meant they didn't deserve those anymore. Not in a magical sense, but in a sort of philosophical and moral sense. Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023) 1
+Oltux72 he/him Posted November 18, 2024 Posted November 18, 2024 On 11/11/2024 at 1:47 PM, Child of Hodor said: According to Brandon the Honorblades were a gift symbolizing them standing up for mankind and when the Heralds were no longer willing to do that they left the Honorblades behind because they didn't deserve them. All this heavily implies a noble purpose to the Honorblades and not just conquest. As far as the Heralds knew. It is possible that Honor forsaw all that, yet did it anyway.
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