Can returned feed off of other Investiture?

[𝖂𝖍𝖎𝖗𝖙𝖊]

I think this is rather self-explanatory. Returned require one breath a week to survive. Does it have to be breath? For instance, could Zahel survive with one BEU of stormlight a week?

[Trusk'our he/him]

20 minutes ago, WhiteHairedDrifter said:

I think this is rather self-explanatory. Returned require one breath a week to survive. Does it have to be breath? For instance, could Zahel survive with one BEU of stormlight a week?

Welcome to the Shard!

For future reference, topics like this that discuss Cosmere-wide phenomenon are generally best posted in the Cosmere Discussion Forum. That way no spoiler boxes are needed.

Stormlight Archive spoilers: 

Spoiler

That said, yes, other forms of Investiture such as Stormlight may be used as a substitute for Breaths. This is actually what Zahel uses for his sustenance on Roshar. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/4-calamity-seattle-signing/#e5167

Questioner

Can Vasher draw Breath from a highstorm?

Brandon Sanderson

I will answer that eventually...  You know what, yes he can.  Not Breath though, he can draw Investiture the way he needs it.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/64-firefight-phoenix-signing/#e10380

ZenBossanova (paraphrased)

Can Vasher use Stormlight to Awaken things?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, all it does is keep him alive. But he has tried and has not figured out how to Awaken things.

 

Hope this helps!

Edited November 5, 2024 by Trusk'our

[Quantus he/him]

Welcome to the Shard!

It's also worth noting that the Feeding requirement is not actually a result of the Divine Breathe itself, rather it's due to the Returned being Cognitive Shadows that need investiture to sustain them.  That part will feed on any Investiture available in the person (more or less like Nightblood) and will take normal breaths, the divine breath, or other available Investitures.  WOB confirms that Stormlight works without first converting it to Breaths (which would be a big breakthrough) and we know that White Sand or allomancy and/or feruchemy would work (but the Mists might be problematic?).  

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

Questioner

This is about certain people from Nalthis... living on Roshar and how they are living on Roshar. Could they also do that on Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson

Scadrial would be a lot harder because getting the Investiture out of things on Scadrial is tough, there are ways you could do it but it would be much more difficult.

Questioner

Does that have to do with the Investiture being more directed?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, it's more the genetic component is a big part of it. The directed component-- In Roshar its just flowing around all over the place. For instance, if he could get to a Shardpool he could feed off that, but then he's at the Shardpool and that's kind of dangerous and things. Roshar is really the easiest place in the cosmere for him to consistently get this sort of stuff. Taldain would not be bad either, that's the White Sand world but it is inaccessible currently in the cosmere

Salt Lake ComicCon FanX 2016 (March 26, 2016)

 

Quote

 

Haverworthy

Just had a question, when a Returned consumes a Breath, is it a property of their body that does so or the Divine Breath itself? It's been contentious in the community. If it's specifically just their body and a hemalurgist were to spike a Divine Breath as indicated was possible here*, would the hemalurgist not need to consume a weekly breath?

*https://wob.coppermind.net/events/364/#e11389

Brandon Sanderson

That's a very interesting question. The thing that requires the Returned to continue gaining investiture is their nature as cognitive shadows--they are dead, and in this case, need a power source to continue persisting in the physical realm. The Divine Breath is part of this. Imagine the Divine Breath as the thing that Infuses their soul, making it persist initially, and then and sticks it to the body. So if you stole it, but you yourself were not in need of being kept alive, I would say that you wouldn't need to be fed a new breath each week to maintain the Divine Breath.

General Reddit 2020 (Oct. 4, 2020)

 

 

 

 

 

[𝖂𝖍𝖎𝖗𝖙𝖊]

11 minutes ago, Quantus said:

It's also worth noting that the Feeding requirement is not actually a result of the Divine Breathe itself, rather it's due to the Returned being Cognitive Shadows that need investiture to sustain them. 

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Interesting. I have yet to read the second Mistborn arc, but I can guess from Secret History that Kelsier returns to the physical realm using hemalurgy. Since he is also a cognitive shadow, would he require Investiture to keep him alive as well? Or is it different for him due to his having held Preservation for a short time?

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 minutes ago, WhiteHairedDrifter said:

Interesting. I have yet to read the second Mistborn arc, but I can guess from Secret History that Kelsier returns to the physical realm using hemalurgy. Since he is also a cognitive shadow, would he require Investiture to keep him alive as well? Or is it different for him due to his having held Preservation for a short time?

Unlikely, I would think. 

Have you read Mistborn Secret History? Spoilers:

Spoiler

Kelsier and Rashek both held significant portions of Preservation's Investiture for a time, meaning their souls were expanded enough that they could theoretically last as long as they wanted in the Cognitive Realm without expiring. 

I would assume that this property extends to their existence in the Physical Realm, meaning that if they can get a body, they'll be fine without consuming more Investiture. 

 

[𝖂𝖍𝖎𝖗𝖙𝖊]

Makes sense. I assume Kelsier and Rashek do not have fifth-heightening-esque immortality, however, as Rashek required the Bands of Mourning to continue living as long as he did. I find it odd that the agelessness afforded to those with the fifth heightening doesn't seem to apply to people holding large amounts of other types of Investiture. Unless it does and I'm just not paying attention.

(EDIT)

Hold on. If Kelsier and Thaidakar are the same person as I suspect, that would mean that Kelsier is, at least to an extent, immortal. That does still leave the question of the Lord Ruler's dependence on the Bands of Mourning, however.

Edited November 5, 2024 by WhiteHairedDrifter

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, WhiteHairedDrifter said:

Makes sense. I assume Kelsier and Rashek do not have fifth-heightening-esque immortality, however, as Rashek required the Bands of Mourning to continue living as long as he did. I find it odd that the agelessness afforded to those with the fifth heightening doesn't seem to apply to people holding large amounts of other types of Investiture. Unless it does and I'm just not paying attention.

Cognitive Shadows don't seem to age in most cases, only when perception would drive it.

Yumi spoilers, in case you haven't read it:

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/518-shardcast-interview/#e16164

Cheyenne Sedai

Given what happens at the end of the book, is Yumi immortal now? If not, does she age?

Brandon Sanderson

Her perception is going to influence this. She's going to need a small bit of power to persist, but she is so highly invested that it would take a very long time for that to be noticeable. Particularly because she's not even using that power. There's no out let for it. She's a Cognitive Shadow, much like the Heralds or Vasher, that is more self sustaining because of how highly she is invested. Imagine someone like Vasher with thousands of Breaths. You're just never going to notice. But her perception of herself will cause her to age. Probably not to age to the point that she dies though. Basically the answer is yes. You've got an immortal being running a noodle shop in a backwater corner of the Cosmere.

It's also definitely weird that TLR wasn't able to maintain agelessness through the sheer amount of Investiture he bore by burning metals with his super-Allomamcy.

This could simply be a matter of the amount available, as neither Metalborn nor Surgebinders carry much over extended periods of time. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/444-dawnshard-annotations-reddit-qa/#e14328

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

I suspect there's more to it though. I think it's possible that Heightenings really only occur when you carry Investiture in large amounts and that Investiture has no specific job given to it. This would help explain why Kinetic Investiture does not provide agelessness, and why Rashek still needed to Compound Atium despite his abnormal level of Allomantic potential or Bondsmiths plugging massive hunks of power into their Spiritwebs. 

1 hour ago, WhiteHairedDrifter said:

Hold on. If Kelsier and Thaidakar are the same person as I suspect, that would mean that Kelsier is, at least to an extent, immortal. That does still leave the question of the Lord Ruler's dependence on the Bands of Mourning, however.

We have confirmation on who Thaidakar is.

Which books have you read again? I don't think it's explicitly stated in the text, but I don't want to spoil to much for you just in case.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/475-fanx-2021/#e15051

Questioner

Is Thaidakar a Cognitive Shadow?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes he is. Have you finished Rhythm of War?

Questioner

I have, yeah.

Brandon Sanderson

So you know who Thaidakar is, right?

Questioner

No. Does it say in the book?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but it calls him... It's Kelsier. They call him the Lord of Scars, someone else confirmed it, it's Kelsier.

Questioner

The "Lord of Scars" thing is what had us thinking, but we weren't sure if it was true.

Brandon Sanderson

It is Kelsier. He's been doing some stuff.

Edited November 5, 2024 by Trusk'our

[𝖂𝖍𝖎𝖗𝖙𝖊]

This is very helpful. As to which books I have read: I believe the only cosmere books I haven't read are second era Mistborn and whichever book takes place on Threnody. (Though I am currently reading Arcanum Unbounded, so I should get to that one today. I don't recall what it is called.) It is possible that I am missing some, but I am not certain. I'll just try and list the ones I've completed.

Stormlight 1-4

Mistborn era 1

Elantris. (And Hope of Elantris)

Warbeaker

The Emperor's Soul

Tress of the Emerald Sea

The Sunlit Man

Yumi and The Nightmare Painter

Dawnshard

Edgedancer

White Sand 1 and 2

Allomancer Jak

The Eleventh Metal (Come to think of it, I think I've finished all of Arcanum except for Threnody one.)

I believe that's all, though it's possible I've forgotten one or two. I think the only ones I haven't read are Threnody and Mistborn era 2. Tell me if there are more.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, WhiteHairedDrifter said:

Makes sense. I assume Kelsier and Rashek do not have fifth-heightening-esque immortality, however, as Rashek required the Bands of Mourning to continue living as long as he did. I find it odd that the agelessness afforded to those with the fifth heightening doesn't seem to apply to people holding large amounts of other types of Investiture. Unless it does and I'm just not paying attention.

(EDIT)

Hold on. If Kelsier and Thaidakar are the same person as I suspect, that would mean that Kelsier is, at least to an extent, immortal. That does still leave the question of the Lord Ruler's dependence on the Bands of Mourning, however.

Rashek wasn't a Cognitive Shadow, he was just a Sliver (a person who Ascended and then gave up the power, which expanded his soul) which allowed him to become a Cognitive Shadow after death, but his body aged normally and he needed Atium Compounding to trick his way into agelessness. After Rashek died, because he touched the power of the Shard and expanded his soul, he could have stayed and be a Cognitive Shadow, but he decided to fade into the Beyond. 

There are different types of Cognitive Shadows, not everyone works in the same way. Returned have a Divine Breath which connects their body to their soul and allows them to live, but they also need to feed on any investiture to sustain that Divine Breath and their body. Others are stronger types of CS like Kel, Fused or Heralds, which are sometimes Connected directly to their Shards and feed directly on their power and that's why they don't need to feed on investiture like Returned. A Cognitive Shadow in general requires a strong Connection to either the Physical Realm (Returned), or the Spiritual Realm (others) - sever those Connections and they just fade into the Beyond like every normal soul (which is what happened to Jezrien). 

Mistborn Era 2 spoilers:

Spoiler

Kelsier is even more different. He tricked his way into the Physical Realm and his body isn't actually his real body - it's a Mistwraith that ate his bones and the spike in his eye allowed him to stample his soul onto that Mistwraith. However, we don't know for sure that's what is happening, but we have strong clues this is true.

WoBs:

Spoiler

rxience (paraphrased)

Would a single spike be sufficient to staple a Cognitive Shadow to a mistwraith?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, that could happen.

rxience (paraphrased)

Did that happen in the past?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. Who are you thinking about?

rxience (paraphrased)

Kelsier of course!

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well, he is somehow in the Physical Realm. And he does look like himself, doesn't he?

Berlin signing (May 14, 2019)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

With regards to certain experiments, would it be fair to say Ishar and a certain Scadrian have similar goals? 

Brandon Sanderson

*hesitation noises* I don't know that I would say that 100%. The certain Scadrian you reference has been able to achieve the goals that he wants. Let's see if I can circumlocute this: there's a certain set of bones floating around that already has a Connection to this individual, which was useful in achieving what he wanted to do, which is not a luxury that Ishar has. 

JordanCon 2021 (July 17, 2021)

 

Quotes and WoBs for you:

RoW ch 92-93 epigraphs:

Quote

"The bond is what keeps us alive. You sever that, and we will slowly decompose into ordinary souls—with no valid Connection to the Physical or Spiritual Realms. Capture one of us with your knives, and you won’t be left with a spren in a jar, foolish ones. You’ll be left with a being that eventually fades away into the Beyond."

"I felt it happen to Jezrien. You think you captured him, but our god is Splintered, our Oathpact severed. He faded over the weeks, and is gone now. Beyond your touch at long last."

RoW ch 15:

Quote

“The Fused?” Kaladin asked. “That’s what they are?”
“Yeah,” he said. “Most of us stop aging when it happens, gaining a kind of immortality.”
“Is there a … way to kill something like you? Permanently?”
“Lots of ways. For the weaker ones, just kill the body again, make sure no one Invests the soul with more strength, and they’ll slip away in a few minutes. For stronger ones … well, you might be able to starve them. A lot of Type Twos feed on power. Keeps them going.
“These enemies of yours though, I think they’re too strong for that. They’ve lasted thousands of years already, and seem Connected to Odium to feed directly on his power."

 

Spoiler

Argent (paraphrased)

What effects does being a Sliver have on a person?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It can vary (on the Shard, the length of time the power was held, the power itself, etc). In some way a Sliver is someone who has had their mind, body, and spirit expanded due to holding a great deal of power, and then have had that power leave.

Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 1, 2013)  

 

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

What kind of changes do Slivers go through after letting go of a Shard's power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It leaves them, imagine it like a balloon that has been deflated.

Questioner (paraphrased)

Okay, so would Rashek still have had powers?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He would have had some residual effects. But it also works the soul in weird ways, like a balloon that has been deflated.

Words of Radiance San Diego signing (March 4, 2014)

 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

If a Returned became an Allomancer, would they be able to feed on that Investiture to survive?

Or if...

Mistborn Era 2 Spoilers

Spoiler

If a Returned got their hands on an Unsealed Metalmind, the kind that anyone can use, could they use that Investiture to survive? Would it need to be a specific kind of Metalmind like Gold to provide health? Would any suffice?

There is a WOB that states that Tapping a Metalmind would be enough to allow you to hold Nightblood without immediately being consumed, so if a Returned taps a Metalmind on their last day, would they be able to live for another week?

I've been curious about how a Returned would be able to live on other worlds, Roshar is by far the easiest since there's so much Investiture everywhere. But according to WOB, Scadrial is much harder. I presume that it's because most Investiture is in the people rather than in the environment, and that they can't just breath in some of the Mists, since only a select few can draw upon them.

[Trusk'our he/him]

21 minutes ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

If a Returned became an Allomancer, would they be able to feed on that Investiture to survive?

Or if...

Mistborn Era 2 Spoilers

  Hide contents

If a Returned got their hands on an Unsealed Metalmind, the kind that anyone can use, could they use that Investiture to survive? Would it need to be a specific kind of Metalmind like Gold to provide health? Would any suffice?

There is a WOB that states that Tapping a Metalmind would be enough to allow you to hold Nightblood without immediately being consumed, so if a Returned taps a Metalmind on their last day, would they be able to live for another week?

I've been curious about how a Returned would be able to live on other worlds, Roshar is by far the easiest since there's so much Investiture everywhere. But according to WOB, Scadrial is much harder. I presume that it's because most Investiture is in the people rather than in the environment, and that they can't just breath in some of the Mists, since only a select few can draw upon them.

I think Scadrial's harder because most Investiture there is keyed to someone else and/or keyed to a specific function. 

A Metalmind doesn't contain free-floating Stormlight, it bears a power designated to boost a specific attribute. 

Hemalurgic spikes might be able to be drained as they decay, or the Returned might be able to just spike raw Investiture into themselves to automatically absorb with nicrosil. 

The Mists might also be an option, but seeing as they can't be breathed in by Allomancers like Surgebinders can with Stormlight, I think they too may be keyed incongrently, meaning you'd have to process it first somehow. 

[𝖂𝖍𝖎𝖗𝖙𝖊]

What about Dor? In the sunlit man, the Scadrian researchers have a jar a Dor. It also appears in Secret History in the possession of the Ire. I have a few questions about this. How is it harvested? Can it be harvested by someone other than an Elantrian? How difficult is it to harvest and store? And finally, how strong is it compared with stormlight? Zellion seemed to imply that if he had gotten his hands on it, it would have given him a considerable amount of investiture.

Edited November 6, 2024 by WhiteHairedDrifter

[Trusk'our he/him]

16 minutes ago, WhiteHairedDrifter said:

What about Dor? In the sunlit man, the Scadrian researchers have a jar a Dor. It also appears in Secret History in the possession of the Ire. I have a few questions about this. How is it harvested? Can it be harvested by someone other than an Elantrian? How difficult is it to harvest and store? And finally, how strong is it compared with stormlight? Zellion seemed to imply that if he had gotten his hands on it, it would have given him a considerable amount of investiture.

This one we don't know yet, though we do know that you can take liquid Investiture from a Perpendicularity with an aluminum vessel, so perhaps aluminum is used to capture it from Sel's Cognitive Realm somehow, though the fact that it's kept in jars may alude to this not being the case.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/316-general-signed-books-2018/#e9233

The_Carpathian

Can aluminum be used to take liquid from a Shardpool, and will it stay Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

That would work.