There will be no consequences to Adolin murdering Sadeas

[KaladinWorldsinger]

Because it was completely the right thing to do.

 

Now that Book5 is coming out. What does everyone feel about this statement?

[Sedside she/her]

I really hope this is not the case.

[logicless.bt]

I agree that there have been no legal consequences, but that was the first step in the downfall of Adolin and Dalinar's relationship. We have yet to see the fallout of that.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

44 minutes ago, logicless.bt said:

I agree that there have been no legal consequences, but that was the first step in the downfall of Adolin and Dalinar's relationship. We have yet to see the fallout of that.

That is very true. But since Dalinar has been set up for his character flaws being controlling and judging, I have a feeling Dalinar will concede in the end that killing Sadeas was the right move

1 hour ago, Sedside said:

I really hope this is not the case.

That wob is talking about the impending Dalinar and Adolin rift that we are seeing now. Brandon keeps talking about implications because that will be the only real consequence.  There will not actually be political consequences for Sadeas' murder because keeping Sadeas alive benefits no one. Dalinar is too stubborn and hard headed to see nuance.

Edited October 25, 2024 by KaladinWorldsinger

[Sedside she/her]

41 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

That wob is talking about the impending Dalinar and Adolin rift that we are seeing now. Brandon keeps talking about implications because that will be the only real consequence.  There will not actually be political consequences for Sadeas' murder because keeping Sadeas alive benefits no one. Dalinar is too stubborn and hard headed to see nuance.

If by consequences you meant political or legal consequences, then I agree there will be none. And not because it was the right thing to do (which I personally think was not, but not going to insist or argue), but because a year has passed, only 10 days left, and people are just too busy to deal with it, especially during the three front war. Adolin is a skilled fighter, Shardbearer, he can command armies and so on, it would be a waste for the coalition to punish him now.

I also don't think that an impending rift between Adolin and Dalinar will be the only consequence of this murder. I've been on OC Adolin train since OB, and I will stay there until the book proves me wrong

[KaladinWorldsinger]

36 minutes ago, Sedside said:

I've been on OC Adolin train since OB,

But isn't Adolin too  good of a person now for that to happen now? As he is reawakening Maya?

Edited October 25, 2024 by KaladinWorldsinger

[earthexile]

The problem with Sadeas is that he was an open, active, traitorous threat to everyone, but his rank and Blade made him someone who could basically never face justice that wasn't being executed by someone like Adolin. 

Everyone raised this boy to be a Shardbearer Highprince, a man who rules through overwhelming force, so what else is a guy like that to do? You're literally standing toe to toe with an enemy Shardbearer who's saying plainly that he's going to try to kill your dad and conquer your kingdom. Why do we need a referee for this, why do we need paperwork and witnesses and someone selling chouta in the stands? Just shank the guy. Every hour you don't, he's working towards your destruction. 

I've been thinking a lot about the Fourth Ideal of the Windrunners. "I accept that there are those I can't save." Sometimes saving people means stopping a spear from going through them, or getting them some mental healthcare, or healing them with surgery. But sometimes 'saving' someone might mean convincing them to stop being such a vicious, destructive asshole. There are people you can't help. Sadeas seems to have been one of those people. Maybe even a Windrunner might eventually realize that murdering this man is the correct thing to do.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

3 minutes ago, earthexile said:

The problem with Sadeas is that he was an open, active, traitorous threat to everyone, but his rank and Blade made him someone who could basically never face justice that wasn't being executed by someone like Adolin. 

Everyone raised this boy to be a Shardbearer Highprince, a man who rules through overwhelming force, so what else is a guy like that to do? You're literally standing toe to toe with an enemy Shardbearer who's saying plainly that he's going to try to kill your dad and conquer your kingdom. Why do we need a referee for this, why do we need paperwork and witnesses and someone selling chouta in the stands? Just shank the guy. Every hour you don't, he's working towards your destruction. 

I've been thinking a lot about the Fourth Ideal of the Windrunners. "I accept that there are those I can't save." Sometimes saving people means stopping a spear from going through them, or getting them some mental healthcare, or healing them with surgery. But sometimes 'saving' someone might mean convincing them to stop being such a vicious, destructive asshole. There are people you can't help. Sadeas seems to have been one of those people. Maybe even a Windrunner might eventually realize that murdering this man is the correct thing to do.

I fully agree. I think in the end the narrative will support Adolin over Dalinar here. A strict Honor code will lead to situations like Szeth, who has completely abandoned his own free will and responsibility to choose. But I know many people still aren't satisfied with Sadeas' death

[the_archduke]

It is an interesting juxtaposition in that in OB we saw how many people Dalinar killed.  Many in worse ways than what Sadeas got (I am referring to the Rift).  Dalinar regrets the bloodthirstiness of his youth.  But if he hadn't done what he did, Alethkar would never have been unified and would have been screwed when Odium eventually summoned the Everstorm. 

Adolin also killed for what I think everyone agrees was a better outcome.  Sadeas's scheming had to be stopped.  Imagine the battle of Thaylen Fields with Sadeas leading the Thrill berserkers.  Adolin probably was the only one who could have ended him without an Alethi civil war.  But Adolin doesn't feel bad about it.  And I think that is their fundamental disagreement. 

Dalinar wants Adolin to be a better man than he was, including doing so faster than he did.  That is really unfair to Adolin who is literally the man Dalinar raised him to be.  Dalinar at Adolin's age would have killed Sadeas in a heartbeat.  

None of this.  0%. Indicates Adolin will switch sides in an active war, in the next 8 days, and become Odium's champion.  And betray the wife he loves.  And betray his nascent bond with Mayalaran.  We also know he is going to spend the next 8 days in Azimir, away from the contest in Urithiru.  

Adolin and Dalinar love each other.  They have stuff to work through.  And that will be the tragedy, because I think Dalinar is toast.  The consequence of Sadeas's murder is that Adolin and Dalinar will be at odds when Dalinar dies.

Edited October 25, 2024 by the_archduke

[KaladinWorldsinger]

23 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

But Adolin doesn't feel bad about it.  And I think that is their fundamental disagreement. 

Just a note, I think the narrative itself is on Adolin's side in that he has nothing to feel bad about. Dalinar's evil acts can't be compared to the killing of Sadeas. 

[Diomedes]

We had a reference in this weeks chapter 23 that rumour was spreading on Seadeas murder. This is going to have consequences. Question is which one? 

The murder was understandable emotionally, but highly risky and could have been discovered, if someone just happened to be strolling by.

As for Sadeas, yes he was beyond saving. But what about his soldiers? Wasn`t the rumour or the suspicion of the murder perpetrated by the Kholins that led them to switch sides to Odium at the battle of Thaylen? I think this could have been averted. 

I have the theory that quite a lot of Lighteyes will switch sides to Taravangian this book. Sadeas murder would be one reason.

[Darvys]

There should be, or rather should have been consequences if only to demonstrate that Radiants aren't raging hypocrites, Sadeas was untouchable in WoR because the Alethi system was broken, the Kholins were in a good position to start changing that system cleanly, Sadeas wasn't in a position to do any more harm than an antagonized Ialai or whichever highlord ended up succeeding him could and later did. The only thing Adolin accomplished was ensure there would be no peace or reconciliation with the princedom.

If Dalinar actually understood or cared about the first Ideal, he would have seen to it that Adolin was punished the moment he learned the truth, rather than wait for a more convenient time. But the way the story has been shaped so far, I doubt this will ever be relevant or addressed, so meh.

 

[Sedside she/her]

2 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

But isn't Adolin too  good of a person now for that to happen now? As he is reawakening Maya?

Oh, that's a thin ice for me to step on  I realize I'm in a wast minority here.

Yeah, he definitely is a good person as he is depicted now, and it seems like he is reviving Maya. But Kaladin is a good person too, and he was about to fall to Odium in RoW. I won't be talking about what I think of Adolin as a character, as I'm afraid of a hail of rotten tomatoes thrown at me  Let's just say that the reasons I see for his turn are mostly logical, based on foreshadowing, my understanding of the book's messages, questions like 'who else can it be for this arc to have a huge emotional impact on the reader', and so on. And yes, the title and the content of the 21th chapter of OB looks pretty much something I can't ignore as well.

As for Sadeas's murder, I don't argue it can be seen as a right thing to do, and I would accept this outcome. The thing I see as very wrong about this murder is the way it was committed, Adolin's thoughts about it later, and him hiding this fact and pretending to be investigating it. It is described as an act of passion, rage and fury. And he feels satisfied by the sensation of ramming a knife into the eye later in OB. It's not a Jasnah-style cold-bloodied murder like 'okay, this guy is a threat, I have to eliminate him'. It's a pure affect. So I can easily imagine Odium taking advantage of this side of Adolin's character and pushing him towards the edge.

[logicless.bt]

12 minutes ago, Sedside said:

 

Yeah, he definitely is a good person as he is depicted now, and it seems like he is reviving Maya. But Kaladin is a good person too, and he was about to fall to Odium in RoW.

There's that WoB about Brandon changing a character's major decision in the final book because it no longer felt right as the character grew. I'm confident that's about Adolin in one way or another -- the question is if he's now electing to become Odium's champion or electing not to.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

What has defined Adolin recently? Passion.

 

It was passion that pushed him to kill Sadeas, and it is his passion that prevents him from moving past the revelation of his mothers death. It is his passion that allowed him to break through Kaladin and Shallans walls. It is his passion for his brother that has allowed that relationship to stay healthy and constructive. 

 

I think Brandon is introducing us to voidbinders. It seems likely to me that if anyone was going to attract and bond a voidspren it would be Adolin. 

1 hour ago, logicless.bt said:

I'm confident that's about Adolin in one way or another -- the question is if he's now electing to become Odium's champion or electing not to.

I had this theory too! 

Edited October 25, 2024 by CtrlAltDepressed

[Smye]

Consider everything we now know Ialai knew about the wider cosmere, the efforts that Amaram was involved in, and the powers that Gavilar was meddling with... as the three people perhaps closest to Sadeas before he (or they) died, it seems reasonable to me that some of the implications yet-to-pass may be less about Adolin's role in Sadea's death, and more about the death itself and the knowledge (or access) lost with it. As I'm rereading SA in preparation for WaT, so many of his machinations come into a new light when viewed through this lens.

[the_archduke]

3 hours ago, Sedside said:

 'who else can it be for this arc to have a huge emotional impact on the reader',

Renarin.  He freaked out about the man with nine shadows because he realized it was himself.  His future sight convinces him that TOdium is the better future.  Everyone convincing him that "being bonded to a half-void spren really isn't that big a deal" end up being wrong.

[KaladinWorldsinger]

3 hours ago, Darvys said:

the Kholins were in a good position to start changing that system cleanly

You just said Sadeas was untouchable. Wdym?

3 hours ago, Darvys said:

Sadeas wasn't in a position to do any more harm than an antagonized Ialai or whichever highlord ended up succeeding him could and later did. The only thing Adolin accomplished was ensure there would be no peace or reconciliation with the princedom.

Sadeas literally said that he would oppose Dalinar out of pure petty pride. There was no peace or reconciliation possible. Sadeas also showed his cunning throughout the two books. 

When looking at his body, someone genuinely says something along the lines of, "we never really needed his help"

[Darvys]

5 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

You just said Sadeas was untouchable. Wdym?

He was untouchable under the Alethi system, as he did nothing that the king could condemn him for with the tenuous support he had among the highprinces, all Sadeas had to do was lament that he had to retreat to save his troops and that was that. Nothing short of open war would change a thing. 

In the Tower, Dalinar's word is law, he control the food supply and the only bridge to the warcamps, Sadeas would be held to account for any further transgressions.

 

8 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said:

Sadeas literally said that he would oppose Dalinar out of pure petty pride. There was no peace or reconciliation possible. Sadeas also showed his cunning throughout the two books. 

And Ialai went on to do just that in his name, Sadeas being dead changed absolutely nothing, everyone knew he was an eel at that point, his cunning mainly relied on Dalinar being a trusting fool, otherwise all he would have accomplished is being a political nuisance before eventually, at worst, switching sides to Odium which Amaram ended up doing anyway.

Hindsight aside, opposition of Dalinar isn't a sin, Adolin murdered him in anger to avenge his prior betrayal, that should have repercussions, but I don't see how they would fit in the story anymore and It annoys me, I hate that Dalinar keeps getting away with his preaching and pristine (war crimes aside) image while others do the dirty work for him or clean up his messes. If Radiants really uphold all those values, maybe start by holding your own goddamn household accountable, if he can't even do that, he has no right to call himself leader of the orders in my view.

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

One reason I don't think it's Adolin who's the "big-RoW-choice" is that Adolin wasn't always a major part of Stormlight. He was written into TWoK mostly to be a foil to Dalinar's visions so Dalinar could be more sure of himself, and indeed died in the original draft. After TWoK he gained a larger role.

Of course, that doesn't mean too much - TWoK was early when Taravangian-Odium wasn't even a solidified decision until RoW. But the WaT climax is supposed to be big, and something that's been brewing for a very long time.

[logicless.bt]

53 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

[Adolin] died in the original draft

THIS part I did not know. I actually figured that his initally small role made him more likely to be the decision referenced, because he took on a new life when he was given a chance to breathe and grow.

[Slayd_07]

On 10/25/2024 at 8:10 AM, earthexile said:

The problem with Sadeas is that he was an open, active, traitorous threat to everyone, but his rank and Blade made him someone who could basically never face justice that wasn't being executed by someone like Adolin. 

Everyone raised this boy to be a Shardbearer Highprince, a man who rules through overwhelming force, so what else is a guy like that to do? You're literally standing toe to toe with an enemy Shardbearer who's saying plainly that he's going to try to kill your dad and conquer your kingdom. Why do we need a referee for this, why do we need paperwork and witnesses and someone selling chouta in the stands? Just shank the guy. Every hour you don't, he's working towards your destruction. 

I've been thinking a lot about the Fourth Ideal of the Windrunners. "I accept that there are those I can't save." Sometimes saving people means stopping a spear from going through them, or getting them some mental healthcare, or healing them with surgery. But sometimes 'saving' someone might mean convincing them to stop being such a vicious, destructive asshole. There are people you can't help. Sadeas seems to have been one of those people. Maybe even a Windrunner might eventually realize that murdering this man is the correct thing to do.

I love this! Yes, this is an absolutely essential point - Sadeas was isolated from any other form of justice because of his political position, and he had just admitted that he was going to continue actively working for Dalinar's downfall even in the face of the threat presented by the Everstorm. As the WOB that somebody higher in this thread referenced this says, Adolin didn't view this as murder, and I'm inclined to agree with him. It was far closer to killing an enemy combatant than murder. Besides that, in WoR, the plan was ALWAYS to get Sadeas in a dueling ring with Adolin - and Dalinar might have thought that just taking away Sadeas's shards would have been enough to force him into line, everyone else (Adolin, Navani, probably even Renarin) realized that getting him in the dueling ring was just a set up for killing him. 

[Lord Spirit he/him]

On 10/25/2024 at 11:10 AM, earthexile said:

The problem with Sadeas is that he was an open, active, traitorous threat to everyone, but his rank and Blade made him someone who could basically never face justice that wasn't being executed by someone like Adolin. 

Everyone raised this boy to be a Shardbearer Highprince, a man who rules through overwhelming force, so what else is a guy like that to do? You're literally standing toe to toe with an enemy Shardbearer who's saying plainly that he's going to try to kill your dad and conquer your kingdom. Why do we need a referee for this, why do we need paperwork and witnesses and someone selling chouta in the stands? Just shank the guy. Every hour you don't, he's working towards your destruction. 

I've been thinking a lot about the Fourth Ideal of the Windrunners. "I accept that there are those I can't save." Sometimes saving people means stopping a spear from going through them, or getting them some mental healthcare, or healing them with surgery. But sometimes 'saving' someone might mean convincing them to stop being such a vicious, destructive asshole. There are people you can't help. Sadeas seems to have been one of those people. Maybe even a Windrunner might eventually realize that murdering this man is the correct thing to do.

Did Sadeas deserve to die?

Absolutely

But Adolin shouldn't have killed him the way he did. Kaladin's entire arc in WoR was about how you can't just kill someone for being a bad person. Kaladin almost goes and kills Amaram, but stops because he realizes it isn't his place to assassinate him. You can accuse them legally and let justice take care of them.

Now admittedly, that didn't work for Kaladin and wouldn't have worked for Adolin (unless he actually waited the one year for his duel) because the Alethi justice system was flawed to say the least.

But if anyone is allowed to kill someone because the world would be better without them...

I'm not saying that Adolin is about to turn Moash, and he had very good reasons and was provoked into attacking Sadeas, but he should still be held accountable.

[the_archduke]

Accountable to who?  And what is a just punishment?

Ialai is dead. Is there someone else agitating for "justice"?  Skybreakers maybe, but they are almost all on the other side of the war. 

Alethkar is not 21st century earth.  Adolin did what had to be done. 

If Mayalaran has a problem with it, I'm sure we'll find out. 

[Lord Spirit he/him]

10 hours ago, the_archduke said:

Accountable to who?  And what is a just punishment?

Ialai is dead. Is there someone else agitating for "justice"?  Skybreakers maybe, but they are almost all on the other side of the war. 

Alethkar is not 21st century earth.  Adolin did what had to be done. 

If Mayalaran has a problem with it, I'm sure we'll find out. 

It’s not going to happen in the next eight days, cuz everyone’s busy, but they have created the Rosharian version of UN. They could have a trial. Or Jasnah would probably be a pretty fair judge. 
Nothing against Maya, but one spren should not be the sole arbiter of someone’s actions. They aren’t infallible. We also don’t know if she supported Sadeas’s death. She didn’t really become aware until OB.