KaladinWorldsinger Posted October 22, 2024 Posted October 22, 2024 Put a spoiler in the title just in case So this quote is the one that fascinates me and it should fascinate you too. Let me explain Why would the power of Honor resent humanity? Because Honor the shard is not well connected to the physical realm anymore. The physical form of an object is the imperfect version of a perfect Spiritual Ideal filtered down. That is, everything in the physical realm is fundamentally imperfect, even people. Meaning people don't ever have perfect Honor in the real world. Everyone makes mistakes or lies or breaks promises or changes... And usually the Shard of Honor is okay with that.... As there is a person as it's vessel. This is a theme we see over and over and over again. People change, Spren don't. Humans break oaths, but spren can't. The stormfather first hated the heralds, and then found empathy for them when he bonds Dalinar. Why? Because he had a better connection to the physical realm and understood that humans aren't perfect at all. Syl starts changing and maturing after her bond. There is Honor in redemption. It is the capability of breaking oaths that makes keeping them so much more important. This is the debate between Windrunners and Skybreakers. Or atleast between Honorspren and Highspren right now. Highspren don't like a changing moral code or person or anything prolly. While Notum knows that the ability to change makes is important. In the Radiant Archives, one person said "Honor is changing" Other things we learn about the time period of the recreance is that Honor stopped believing in the radiants and started raving, believing that they would destroy Roshar. Why? Because Tanavast had been dying for thousands of years. Meaning, his physical form was dying. Honor was becoming more rigid, more unchangeable. Something like Stormfather. Or the Highspren. Basically Honor the shardic power is connected to The Stormfather, who is spren only connected to a physical storm, not a person. Hoid said that leave a piece of investiture alone, it's starts becoming alive. TAnavast has been dead for 2000 years... Did the power change enough. is Honor now closer to something like Law? Or Order? What would that mean? It would mean that instead of Kaladin or Dalinar or even Adolin being the obvious options of Honor's vessel, the power might actually choose someone else. Someone with a stricter moral code Like Szeth... Or Nale. That can't be good for Roshar WE saw that moments after Rayse dying, the power itself pleaded to Taravangian to take the power. Even worse case scenario, Taravangian feels all of the pain that is occurring in everyone in the cosmere. He wants to change the world, save the world, do something radical. A Honor that is becoming more rigid will impose stricter moral codes and harsher judgements on those breaking it. The power of a god will come to resent humanity. And it will try to impose order on the people. Something Taravangian is not opposed to. Cultivation did say she wanted Tara to weild the power of Odium with honor... Just to clarify, I am saying that the power has changed subtly, not enough to completely change the name to Law or Order. But the power itself might seek someone like Szeth or Nale instead of Kal and Dalinar. Scary 2
Darvys Posted October 22, 2024 Posted October 22, 2024 I agree, the Stormfather straight up warned Dalinar that the power might reject him after whatever happened with Tanavast, so finding out what that was will be key to understanding what Honor became or is becoming, in my view Dalinar IS a good vessel for the rigid version of Honor you describe, imposing his will, keeping his oaths and dealing with consequences later has been his way to govern for quite a while. It could just as easily be the opposite, and the dying Tanavast's behavior scarred the Shard in some way and shifted its Intent towards leniency if such a thing is even possible, it can't be a coincidence that the Wind picked for her champions the two Radiants who best exemplify these two facets of Honor, their actions may well end up deciding which way the Shard ends up stabilizing.
coolsnow7 Posted October 22, 2024 Posted October 22, 2024 2 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: Like Szeth... Or Nale. Who do you think "the Broken One" is? Quote "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns." WoK Ch. 11 epigraph I'll tell you what should be clear at this point: it isn't Taravangian. He's already been given the epithet "the Divided One". Szeth and Nale, though... now those are good candidates for "the Broken One". (The other good candidate is perhaps Kaladin.) Szeth in particular... Quote "You broke me, Taravangian." RoW, ch. 113 2
Njvodin Posted October 23, 2024 Posted October 23, 2024 6 hours ago, coolsnow7 said: I'll tell you what should be clear at this point: it isn't Taravangian. He's already been given the epithet "the Divided One". I think since Death Rattles are pretty vague, Broken One could still mean Divided One, as they are very similar names with essentially the same meaning. But yeah, I can see Szeth Ascending 4
KaladinWorldsinger Posted October 23, 2024 Author Posted October 23, 2024 (edited) 9 hours ago, Darvys said: agree, the Stormfather straight up warned Dalinar that the power might reject him after whatever happened with Tanavast, so finding out what that was will be key to understanding what Honor became or is becoming, in my view Dalinar IS a good vessel for the rigid version of Honor you describe, imposing his will, keeping his oaths and dealing with consequences later has been his way to govern for quite a while. True Dalinar might be a very good vessel for a changing Honor. Dalinar finds it hard to give up power, which originally isn't aligned with Tanavast Honor as we know it, but now? Maybe the Stormfather is wrong, maybe the power will not reject someone who wants it. Yikes... Brandon did say that Dalinar embodies the best and worst of both Honor and Odium..... 9 hours ago, coolsnow7 said: Szeth and Nale, though... now those are good candidates for "the Broken One". (The other good candidate is perhaps Kaladin.) Szeth in particular... That quote is definitely interesting in this context. Maybe Szeth might become Honor... Not as a good thing. Edited October 23, 2024 by KaladinWorldsinger 2
coolsnow7 Posted October 23, 2024 Posted October 23, 2024 55 minutes ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: That quote is definitely interesting in this context. Maybe Szeth might become Honor... Vengeance, my friend. Vengeance. If he doesn’t merge intents with Odium somehow, then it will be phrased like Retribution or Justice or something. Or maybe just Vengeance. He will chase Taravangian around the Cosmere on a single-minded quest to avenge himself, leaving destruction in his wake.
KaladinWorldsinger Posted October 23, 2024 Author Posted October 23, 2024 13 hours ago, coolsnow7 said: Vengeance, my friend. Vengeance. If he doesn’t merge intents with Odium somehow, then it will be phrased like Retribution or Justice or something. Or maybe just Vengeance. He will chase Taravangian around the Cosmere on a single-minded quest to avenge himself, leaving destruction in his wake. Now I am imagining Stormlight 5 ending with Taravangian fleeing for his dear life while Honor Szeth chases him across the Cosmere And all the whole Szeth will insist that he has no real choice and he just has to do this... 2
CognitiveShadow he/him Posted October 23, 2024 Posted October 23, 2024 16 hours ago, Njvodin said: I think since Death Rattles are pretty vague, Broken One could still mean Divided One, as they are very similar names with essentially the same meaning. But yeah, I can see Szeth Ascending I thought the broken one was a reference to Odium (Rayse) previously. And now Taravangian perceives himself as the divided one, likely because his book/curse prepared him to enter shard-ship with this mindset. Wob below about the broken one and odium. Quote Questioner Is there any reason why Odium's known as the Broken One? Has he got some part of him ripped off? ...Has he had any Investiture ripped off of him? Brandon Sanderson Has he had Investiture ripped off of him? Yes, asterisk. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) 1
Lord Spirit he/him Posted October 23, 2024 Posted October 23, 2024 On 10/22/2024 at 5:16 PM, coolsnow7 said: Who do you think "the Broken One" is? I'll tell you what should be clear at this point: it isn't Taravangian. He's already been given the epithet "the Divided One". Szeth and Nale, though... now those are good candidates for "the Broken One". (The other good candidate is perhaps Kaladin.) Szeth in particular... Seems to me like Honor could be the broken one. He was splintered, but is still the main God on Roshar even though he died. Odium is stuck on braize and cultivation has avoided attention. Also, "Honor is not dead so long as he lives in the hearts of men." currently, humans rule Roshar.
teknopathetic he/him Posted October 24, 2024 Posted October 24, 2024 21 hours ago, Njvodin said: I think since Death Rattles are pretty vague, Broken One could still mean Divided One, as they are very similar names with essentially the same meaning. But yeah, I can see Szeth Ascending Could be even more vague. How many Old Gods were on Roshar? How many Old Gods did Adonalsium create? For all we know the quote is about Old Gods and the Broken One is The Stormfather 1
Lord Spirit he/him Posted October 24, 2024 Posted October 24, 2024 14 minutes ago, teknopathetic said: Could be even more vague. How many Old Gods were on Roshar? How many Old Gods did Adonalsium create? For all we know the quote is about Old Gods and the Broken One is The Stormfather The stormfather "reigns" all right. the death rattles are spoken, so maybe it was "the broken one rains" XD 4
+Child of Hodor Posted October 24, 2024 Posted October 24, 2024 Honor resents humanity because they broke their oaths repeatedly. After arriving on Roshar they promised not to go on the stone and not to use the surges, but they went on the stone to conquer the Singers using surges in the First Desolation. The Heralds were supposed to keep the Fused bottled up on Braize, but they let the Fused pass many times before 9 of them outright quit. The Knights Radiants of the Recreance broke their oaths en masse. That's a lot of broken promises to stomach for a god of oaths, laws and bonds. The Stormfather is the largest remnant of the Power of Honor remaining, per Odium, and he is super salty about broken oaths and humans generally. He's really hung up on it. He's made it his entire personality Quote "HONOR LET THE POWER BLIND HIM TO THE TRUTH - THAT WHILE SPREN AND GODS CANNOT BREAK THEIR OATHS MEN CAN AND WILL." - Stormfather on the Heralds breaking Ch. 38 OB "I blame them for their weakness, their broken oaths." Ch. 113 OB "YOU BROKEN OATHS BEFORE" - Stormfather to Navani at her wedding(!) in Ch. 4 OB "SPREN ONCE LET THEMSELVES BECOME CONSUMED BY THE NEED OF THE RADIANTS, AND THAT KILLED THEM" RoW Syl Interlude "YOU FAILED. THE EVERSTORM IS HERE ... IT IS OVER. YOU HAVE LOST." Stormfather being super helpful as always.
KaladinWorldsinger Posted October 24, 2024 Author Posted October 24, 2024 (edited) 7 hours ago, Child of Hodor said: Honor resents humanity because they broke their oaths repeatedly. After arriving on Roshar they promised not to go on the stone and not to use the surges, but they went on the stone to conquer the Singers using surges in the First Desolation. The Heralds were supposed to keep the Fused bottled up on Braize, but they let the Fused pass many times before 9 of them outright quit. The Knights Radiants of the Recreance broke their oaths en masse. That's a lot of broken promises to stomach for a god of oaths, laws and bonds Then there wouldn't be a reason for Tanavast to change quickly. He was on the humans side for a long time, before going back completely to the other side ( they would destroy Roshar) right when he was dying. By your theory, there would be no connection to his death at all and Honor's disdain for humans would show gradually and surprise no one when he starts hating them. This view also doesn't explain why Stormfather who hated the heralds for their broken oaths suddenly gains empathy for them and their suffering, just by bonding Dalinar. He even blames Dalinar for this understanding. Syl acknowledges in RoW that she is changing, which spren are not supposed to. Stormfather does not want to change and does not want to be a human, that he is a storm and so should not change. But by Dalinar, he is already changing, which Dalinar acknowledges recently. The Sibling specifically says that leaving the shard without a vessel would make the power resent humanity. Not that anyone with Honor would immediately hate humanity for their broken oaths. Quote Whatever the reason, be glad. These powers aren’t like the tiny pieces that become spren. The power of a Shard needs a partner, a Vessel. Without it… What? Navani asked. Great danger. We do not think as humans do. To separate the power from those who are attached to the Physical Realm… that should frighten you. It is not so terrible a thing for part of me to despise you. But for the power of a god to? Dangerous. For all of us. The shard is starting to resent Honor now. This resentment is new Edited October 24, 2024 by KaladinWorldsinger
Treach Posted October 25, 2024 Posted October 25, 2024 On 10/22/2024 at 4:16 PM, coolsnow7 said: Who do you think "the Broken One" is? I'll tell you what should be clear at this point: it isn't Taravangian. He's already been given the epithet "the Divided One". Szeth and Nale, though... now those are good candidates for "the Broken One". (The other good candidate is perhaps Kaladin.) Szeth in particular... The Shin, and maybe especially Szeth, are also the only humans who have kept their oaths. They stick to Shinovar, they don't bind surges or spren (other than the Honorblades), Szeth literally becomes a slave super assassin in strict adherence to their laws. If Rayse was telling the truth, that Honor's perfect vision of Roshar would be everyone being like the Skybreakers, Szeth definitely best exemplifies that. 1
Wanguu He/Him Posted October 25, 2024 Posted October 25, 2024 1 hour ago, Treach said: If Rayse was telling the truth, that Honor's perfect vision of Roshar would be everyone being like the Skybreakers, Szeth definitely best exemplifies that. I think that people misconstrue Honor with laws; A Windrunner has access to Honor's Truest Surge, while a Skybreaker does not. An Edgedancer has access to Cultivation's truest surge (unconfirmed, I think?), but I would consider Edgedancers just as honorable as the rest. Laws don't make Honor, the things that bind people together and staying true to them make Honor. When Dalinar manipulates connection using Honor's Truest Surge, he is manipulating the very bonds that hold people together. One person, alone, cannot be honorable. Honor requires multiple people, interacting. 2
logicless.bt Posted October 25, 2024 Posted October 25, 2024 2 hours ago, Wanguu said: I think that people misconstrue Honor with laws. This is like, THE major theme of the series, and it's only going to get developed further. The point about Skybreakers not possessing Adhesion and therefore not being closest to Honor is fascinating to consider, I'll be thinking about that 1
+Child of Hodor Posted October 25, 2024 Posted October 25, 2024 23 hours ago, KaladinWorldsinger said: Then there wouldn't be a reason for Tanavast to change quickly. He was on the humans side for a long time, before going back completely to the other side ( they would destroy Roshar) right when he was dying. Tanavast was dying and "insane" according to the Stormfather. We've seen a shard dying before. Presevation was not always lucid in SH. Tanavast didn't "switch sides" he lost hope in humanity after many many broken promises. His bad attitude is reflected in the Stormfather who is likely partially Tanavast at least.
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