Wind and Truth Chapters 21 and 22 now available!

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

1 hour ago, the_archduke said:

Since we are expecting it, it won't happen.  I think Dalinar is going to fail.  Or succeed and abdicate.  Or something.  It can't be this straightforward.  Plus, narratively, the good guys can't win in book five out of ten.  

After reading the epigraph today about Nohadon talking about abdicating his throne, I think that was foreshadowing for Dalinar. He's probably going to get really close to taking the power, or maybe he does take it but then releases it or something?

[the_archduke]

From Sunlit Man.  The NIGHT Brigade?  Night left and started those psychos?

[Elder]

1 hour ago, the_archduke said:

I agree 100%, someone will be holding Honor.  I am leaning more and more towards Taravangian and War.  There has to be a major conflict for books 6-10, and benevolent god DHonor or KHonor doesn't fit that bill.

Wit shot down the idea of renegotiation, and they discussed how he would let the world burn rather than free Odium.  But what if Odium were not Odium anymore?

"Odium: a god’s divine wrath, uncoupled from essential moderating factors like mercy and love.”  Those are Wit's words.  Wit believes Odium needs moderating factors.  What if Dalinar realizes that putting Adonalsium back together again is what Unity means.  So he ascends to Honor and either takes Odium from Taravangian, or gives Honor to Taravangian.  

Perhaps this is the decision Brandon has hinted at that he had long planned differently, but the character chose differently.  Dalinar's to give up Honor or take in Odium.

I suppose it really depends on what a Bondsmith unchained is truly capable of.  
 

Whether or not Dalinar takes up the power of Honor for himself, could Dalinar, as Bondsmith Unchained, bind some moderating factors to Odium, with or without Odium’s consent?

Or…..

could Dalinar, as a Bondsmith, rebind Taravangian, the Divided One?  Make it so that the part that feels and the part that thinks are actually the same person?  It appears ascension hasn’t unified Teravangian as a person… though it has changed the nature of the conflict.

Spoiler

Odium was a person divided. One side thinking, the other feeling. The former understood that with his vast powers and knowledge, he would of course have to accept certain drawbacks or complications.

 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

1 hour ago, the_archduke said:

"Odium: a god’s divine wrath, uncoupled from essential moderating factors like mercy and love.”  Those are Wit's words.  Wit believes Odium needs moderating factors.  What if Dalinar realizes that putting Adonalsium back together again is what Unity means.  So he ascends to Honor and either takes Odium from Taravangian, or gives Honor to Taravangian. 

WOW. This got me thinking. Yes, what if it goes like this: 

• Kaladin or Szeth swear a new ideal and 'heal' Ishar at least temporarily. He teaches them them a bondsmith unchained could forge a Connection between 2 shards
• Dalinar enters the spiritual realm and learns a bunch of stuff, somehow gets a hold of Honor's power
• Kaladin bonds the Wind and becomes an OG bondsmith (optional, not necessary for this storyline), goes back to the tower just in time to find Dalinar in a struggle against tOdium and/or tOdium's champion and tells him about the things they learned from Ishar
• Dalinar forges a connection between Honor's power and tOdium's power, merging them together as one, calling the combination 'War'. I don't know what the combination should be called, but having their light called warlight seems like a fair enough bit of foreshadowing if this is what happens
• It turns out this is what was meant by 'unite them' all along: Unite the shards, specifically the powers/investiture to create a new intent
  • Maybe what actually happend to Honor was that he self sacrificed, and latched his cognitive shadow to the Stormfather, expecting to be able to maintain his sanity and control, but it was a more traumatic experience for him that resulted in a merging of their conciousness
  • But originally Honor's plan was to leave his power available so that a bondsmith (that he would bond as the Stormfather) would be able to connect his power with Odium and therefore balance out the wrath/anger with some oaths and principles
    • Essentially trying to sacrifice himself in order to permanently change the extremely dangerous force of Odium?

I kind of like the track of thought here, but I suppose it is very similar to the situation with Preservation and Ruin - good god sacrifices self to help take out the bad god and merge their powers together, removing the threat of the bad god. So maybe things don't work out great for the heroes here...

• So, what if the original plan was to merge all 3 together and Cultivation was planning to give up her power at just the right moment so it can be added, providing at least a desire to nurture and add life to the new shard. But instead only Honor and Odium are bonded (for reasons we don't know yet - maybe Cultivation backs out last second or maybe is prevented from it somehow)
• This allows Taravangian to have 2 shards combined and with a much more managable intent. So he'd be less chaotic and destructive, but maybe even more dangerous.
  • If it truly does become the 'War' shard, he would be driven to go fight and conquer constantly.
• Maybe part of the process of Dalinar accessing the power of Honor means he technically dies, so he loses the contest of champions. 

So, all in all, the end of the book has tOdium turned into the shard of "War" and the ruler of all of Roshar except maybe one or two spots if they win any of the battles ahead of the contest...? That would make it quite different from Mistborn. Plus Dalinar would be coming back as a fused - we would have bondsmith Dalinar, subject to Taravangian as the god of war who is hell bent on taking over the cosmere and destroying all the other shards....

27 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

From Sunlit Man.  The NIGHT Brigade?  Night left and started those psychos?

Love this thought. I've been trying to figure out what it could mean for the Night to 'leave'... the Night brigade sounds pretty darn interesting now! Maybe the Night found someone new to bond out in the cosmere and they started their own thing

18 minutes ago, Elder said:

could Dalinar, as a Bondsmith, rebind Taravangian, the Divided One?  Make it so that the part that feels and the part that thinks are actually the same person?  It appears ascension hasn’t unified Teravangian as a person… though it has changed the nature of the conflict.

My reading of Taravangian as Odium is not that he still has the curse/boon stuff from Cultivation. I think she gave him that while he was a mortal to help prepare him for the challenging state of holding the shard of Odium. That she was trying to replicate that feeling of a divide between logic and feelings since that is what the shard does to the vessel. So I don't think those parts of him can be bonded together without adding in something like the shard of Honor to fill in the gaps. Kind of poetic if you think about it - like how the nahel bond fills in the gaps of broken people? I believe we've seen that metaphor

[Elder]

28 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

WOW. This got me thinking. Yes, what if it goes like this: 

• Kaladin or Szeth swear a new ideal and 'heal' Ishar at least temporarily. He teaches them them a bondsmith unchained could forge a Connection between 2 shards
• Dalinar enters the spiritual realm and learns a bunch of stuff, somehow gets a hold of Honor's power
• Kaladin bonds the Wind and becomes an OG bondsmith (optional, not necessary for this storyline), goes back to the tower just in time to find Dalinar in a struggle against tOdium and/or tOdium's champion and tells him about the things they learned from Ishar
• Dalinar forges a connection between Honor's power and tOdium's power, merging them together as one, calling the combination 'War'. I don't know what the combination should be called, but having their light called warlight seems like a fair enough bit of foreshadowing if this is what happens
• It turns out this is what was meant by 'unite them' all along: Unite the shards, specifically the powers/investiture to create a new intent
  • Maybe what actually happend to Honor was that he self sacrificed, and latched his cognitive shadow to the Stormfather, expecting to be able to maintain his sanity and control, but it was a more traumatic experience for him that resulted in a merging of their conciousness
  • But originally Honor's plan was to leave his power available so that a bondsmith (that he would bond as the Stormfather) would be able to connect his power with Odium and therefore balance out the wrath/anger with some oaths and principles
    • Essentially trying to sacrifice himself in order to permanently change the extremely dangerous force of Odium?

I kind of like the track of thought here, but I suppose it is very similar to the situation with Preservation and Ruin - good god sacrifices self to help take out the bad god and merge their powers together, removing the threat of the bad god. So maybe things don't work out great for the heroes here...

• So, what if the original plan was to merge all 3 together and Cultivation was planning to give up her power at just the right moment so it can be added, providing at least a desire to nurture and add life to the new shard. But instead only Honor and Odium are bonded (for reasons we don't know yet - maybe Cultivation backs out last second or maybe is prevented from it somehow)
• This allows Taravangian to have 2 shards combined and with a much more managable intent. So he'd be less chaotic and destructive, but maybe even more dangerous.
  • If it truly does become the 'War' shard, he would be driven to go fight and conquer constantly.
• Maybe part of the process of Dalinar accessing the power of Honor means he technically dies, so he loses the contest of champions. 

So, all in all, the end of the book has tOdium turned into the shard of "War" and the ruler of all of Roshar except maybe one or two spots if they win any of the battles ahead of the contest...? That would make it quite different from Mistborn. Plus Dalinar would be coming back as a fused - we would have bondsmith Dalinar, subject to Taravangian as the god of war who is hell bent on taking over the cosmere and destroying all the other shards....

Love this thought. I've been trying to figure out what it could mean for the Night to 'leave'... the Night brigade sounds pretty darn interesting now! Maybe the Night found someone new to bond out in the cosmere and they started their own thing

My reading of Taravangian as Odium is not that he still has the curse/boon stuff from Cultivation. I think she gave him that while he was a mortal to help prepare him for the challenging state of holding the shard of Odium. That she was trying to replicate that feeling of a divide between logic and feelings since that is what the shard does to the vessel. So I don't think those parts of him can be bonded together without adding in something like the shard of Honor to fill in the gaps. Kind of poetic if you think about it - like how the nahel bond fills in the gaps of broken people? I believe we've seen that metaphor

He still regards himself as “The Divided One.”  But you may be right about him needing the entire Shard of Honor to heal that division.  
 

we can guess that Dalinar’s going to do something crazy on top of Urithiru just from the cover art.  I think taking Honor, not for himself, but to heal both Odium and Taravangian, possibly binding Odium with Honor by tricking him into taking more power (Rayse would never want that, But Taravangian might be less adverse… or naive about what 2 shards with one vessel means).
Also having his thinking and feeling reunited might compromise him…. Paralyze him with regret and restraint…. Maybe.  Though I doubt Honor’s intent would accept Taravangian willingly…. 

Edited October 14, 2024 by Elder

[Through the Living Wrath he/him]

Something I noticed in these chapters is the use of the word Dust in the WoK excerpts. 

Is this Wit? (Not Nohadon, but I wonder if he was the literate one who advised him.)

"Dust blew with them, for dust goes where it wishes, ignoring all borders."

...

Edited October 14, 2024 by SpiritOfWrath

[FollowYourMuse she/her]

30 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

• So, what if the original plan was to merge all 3 together and Cultivation was planning to give up her power at just the right moment so it can be added, providing at least a desire to nurture and add life to the new shard. But instead only Honor and Odium are bonded (for reasons we don't know yet - maybe Cultivation backs out last second or maybe is prevented from it somehow)
•  

I am more inclined to think that Cultivation's plans would be for her to pick up the other Shards, not give up hers, but only if She could pick up both. 
 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

9 minutes ago, Elder said:

He still regards himself as “The Divided One.”  But you may be right about him needing the entire Shard of Honor to heal that division.

I get that he calls himself that, but I understood it to be an inherent part of Odium (the shard) and the reason why it's so hard to control. I personally don't think that his boon/curse is still impacting him. I just think Cultivation gave him that specific set up so that she could get a new vessel who might be more well equipped/practiced in managing a divided brain.

12 minutes ago, Elder said:

Though I doubt Honor’s intent would accept Taravangian willingly…. 

We do see Ishar as a bondsmith unchained reach out and start to take away Dalinar's bond with the Stormfather against his will. It would have worked too, but Szeth stepped in with Nightblood and severed the connection being forged. I would assume the same principle holds for a Shard, but maybe they are more protected due to the whole infinite investiture thing... But maybe if there are 3 unchained bondsmiths? Dalinar, Navani, and Kaladin (Wind)? Not to mention that Dalinar is a bondsmith who is bonded to Honor's cognitive shadow - that might help make this feasible

Plus, I view it more like the powers being merged together as one (just like Navani did with the stormlight and voidlight, creating warlight). And then you just have a new shard with a new intent (War?) which I think would be very well aligned with either Dalinar or Taravangian. And I think it's more likely to go to Taravangian just cause I think that would turn him into a great big-bad-villian for the foreseeable future. Between tWar and Autonomy there's some solid danger out there.

9 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

I am more inclined to think that Cultivation's plans would be for her to pick up the other Shards, not give up hers, but only if She could pick up both. 
 

I think that would make sense. Like maybe she was planning to absorb the other two shards once they are bonded, but maybe something goes wrong and Taravangian gets the upper hand so he maintains control of the merged shard? I could then see him splintering Cultivation afterwards too

[The Stick]

I think that the there is a best thing that can happen and the funniest ending.

I think funnier option is for Dalinar to pick up Honor, then force it upon Taravangian, and the two of them get fused together as two co-holders of a combination Shard. You thought Harmony had problems getting things done, you haven't seen anything yet

 

The best thing Dalinar could foreseeabley do is to pick up Honor, make many oaths restricting himself and his action, swear to remain on some random planet with no inhabitants, swear to never make mischief, and swear to follow all these oaths for eternity. Then, he should just try to tempt Todium to take the Shard, and all the corresponding oaths. "Oh, hi Taravangian. You are looking good today. I changed my mind about you, so please take this totally not booby trapped piece of infinite power from me." I guess if they found out about the Kharbranth oath, he could also swear to destroy Kharbranth, which would paralyze Taravangian if he took it.

[Elder]

11 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

I get that he calls himself that, but I understood it to be an inherent part of Odium (the shard) and the reason why it's so hard to control. I personally don't think that his boon/curse is still impacting him. I just think Cultivation gave him that specific set up so that she could get a new vessel who might be more well equipped/practiced in managing a divided brain.

We do see Ishar as a bondsmith unchained reach out and start to take away Dalinar's bond with the Stormfather against his will. It would have worked too, but Szeth stepped in with Nightblood and severed the connection being forged. I would assume the same principle holds for a Shard, but maybe they are more protected due to the whole infinite investiture thing... But maybe if there are 3 unchained bondsmiths? Dalinar, Navani, and Kaladin (Wind)? Not to mention that Dalinar is a bondsmith who is bonded to Honor's cognitive shadow - that might help make this feasible

Plus, I view it more like the powers being merged together as one (just like Navani did with the stormlight and voidlight, creating warlight). And then you just have a new shard with a new intent (War?) which I think would be very well aligned with either Dalinar or Taravangian. And I think it's more likely to go to Taravangian just cause I think that would turn him into a great big-bad-villian for the foreseeable future. Between tWar and Autonomy there's some solid danger out there.

I think that would make sense. Like maybe she was planning to absorb the other two shards once they are bonded, but maybe something goes wrong and Taravangian gets the upper hand so he maintains control of the merged shard? I could then see him splintering Cultivation afterwards too

K, part of the problem here is that Taravangian the divided one is what he calls himself to distinguish himself from Odium, the power that he carries:

Spoiler

The divided one knelt, and let himself feel. He was not Odium. He held Odium. He would notlet it rule.

He was not Odium.

He was Taravangian.

And he had an important mission, the same that he’d given himself years ago when he’d seen the threat to Kharbranth—then had moved to save it. He was the one who could both see the coming danger and be willing to stop it.

He was Taravangian, the divided one—and he could save them. All of them.

Unlike literally every other Shard we’ve met (with the brief exceptions of Kelsier and Vin), he hasn’t integrated himself with the Shard yet.  The Ddvided one can’t represent the nature of Odium if it’s his way of defying his union with Odium.

It goes to show that his Bond with the Shard isn’t all that solid… yet.  And as such, it may be easier to mess with it.  Maybe giving him the Shard of Honor will be the key to him losing the power, as the combined shard will be even less attuned to the terrible man that Taravangian is.   Honor may or may not completely accept Dalinar.  Odium loves the passionate Taravangian.  But if the Shard is something different, and given that Taravangian hasn’t fully embraced his Shard, changing its nature may cause him to lose his tenuous grip.

 

[coolsnow7]

3 hours ago, The Stick said:

That is interesting, because Bavadin, Edgli, and maybe Sazed don't seem too.

In his letter, Sazed tells Wit “you had that chance, and didn’t take it. Wisely, I think.” (I’m paraphrasing but only a bit.) No, I think Wit is actually being precise.

[teknopathetic he/him]

Two things:

1. Is Nohadon…. Is the in-world Way of Kings about Tanavast? Is this book about Honour’s abdication and his life as a mortal before dying? Brandon has been cagey on if Tanavast died at shattering or sometime later. Maybe Tanavast walked the world and met people who had come to meet Honour? I know this entirely doesn’t make sense with what we know of Nohadon. But at the same time, the vibes here are INSANE. I really hope Nohadan is actually Honour doing one last life before he passes. 
 

I know Nohadon is said to be a king in a desolation. But, this is weird. And Nohadon’s book being the way to connect to Honour, and Nohadon’s weird vision powers, well it’s odd. 

What jumped to mind is the legend of the Queen switching places with the moon. Maybe Tanavast swapped with a king, but then the swap back never happened? 
——-

2. I wonder if this is going to turn into another colonization issue. Roshar had its own gods before Honour and Cultivation showed up. Did Honour and Cultivation abuse these entities? 

it would be interesting if the “Made” called for Odium to help them and then willingly became Unmade to stop the God Exodus that occurred. Or perhaps maybe Honour and Cultivation sacrificed some of the old gods to buy time? 
 

Or what if the old gods were upset that the Shards who killed their god were now trying to take their planet too. I’d be pissed. 

Edited October 14, 2024 by teknopathetic

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The problem here is strategic in nature. There is no real need to go to war against the Ghostbloods now. In fact it is a pretty stupid idea.

Agreed.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Or one bridge too little. Calling off the defense of Narak in order to attack Herdaz would have made sense.

Not at all, that would be a bad plan - Narak has an Oathgate, Herdaz doesn't. If you retake Herdaz by giving up Narak, it will be essentially isolated and surrounded by foes in every direction - yes, there will be a peace and all, but sooner or later Herdaz would get back on Odium's side just because they would had no other choice (trade, economics, limited movement of people etc).

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

First Dalinar will learn of the shame. Then we'll see whether he still wants to fight Odium. Jasnah has suggested the alternative. They might make a deal.

Agreed again.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Virtuosity?

Can't be her. Firstly he never visited Komashi after the Shroud was formed, secondly the Shroud was made out of people, not Shard's remains. We don't know if Virtuosity left any remains like this - Spirits at best, but they weren't everywhere. Komashi doesn't fit.

 

1 hour ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Dalinar forges a connection between Honor's power and tOdium's power, merging them together as one, calling the combination 'War'. I don't know what the combination should be called, but having their light called warlight seems like a fair enough bit of foreshadowing if this is what happens

This is actually possible. 

Spoiler

CephandriusTW

Stormfather once said that "Three of sixteen ruled but now the Broken One reigns" and that "Odium reigns", is not crazy to think that Odium is the Broken One. My question is, could be possible to fuse Odium's shard (without Rayse) with the remanents of Honor (his Cognitive Shadow) in order to create a new whole Shard? Could Dalinar do something like that? He would be uniting them (two Shards, one of them supposed to be the Broken One and the other that we actually now is a bit broken).

Brandon Sanderson

[That] is possible

General Reddit 2020 (June 18, 2020)

But I don't agree on the name War, just because combined light is called Warlight. The name of the light isn't the name of its Shard. Stormlight comes from Honor not Storm, Voidlight comes from Odium not Void and combined Honor and Cultivation certainly won't be named Tower. Justice or Wrath are way better names.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

2 minutes ago, Elder said:

K, part of the problem here is that Taravangian the divided one is what he calls himself to distinguish himself from Odium, the power that he carries:

Like you pointed out, that can simply be interpreted as Taravangian trying to keep himself separate from the power and not let it rule him. So it's a division of what he wants to do as the vessel and what the power wants him to do. Which makes sense since the power is more emotional and reactive while his mind is more logical and calculating. Rayse wasn't particularly bright and was pretty much ruled by the shard. To me, the quote you shared is him trying to remind / convince himself that he is still him, that he is not Odium but instead holds the shard. I imagine most people would (and probably did) try this approach/mentality.

6 minutes ago, Elder said:

Unlike literally every other Shard we’ve met (with the brief exceptions of Kelsier and Vin), he hasn’t integrated himself with the Shard yet.  The Ddvided one can’t represent the nature of Odium if it’s his way of defying his union with Odium.

It goes to show that his Bond with the Shard isn’t all that solid… yet.  And as such, it may be easier to mess with it.  Maybe giving him the Shard of Honor will be the key to him losing the power, as the combined shard will be even less attuned to the terrible man that Taravangian is.   Honor may or may not completely accept Dalinar.  Odium loves the passionate Taravangian.  But if the Shard is something different, and given that Taravangian hasn’t fully embraced his Shard, changing its nature may cause him to lose his tenuous grip.

I really still read all of this as just the nature of holding the shard while attempting to control it instead of the other way around - I see nothing that indicates Cultivation's boon/curse on him is still having any impact. In fact, I don't think it would make sense for it to still have an impact on him after he has both died and ascended to godhood. 

There is also a death rattle that might be relevant here:

Quote

 

Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns. 

I kind of read this as Honor, Cultivation, and Odium all ruling separately, but then Odium kind of took control after Honor died and Cultivation stepped into the shadows. I kind of see the Broken One title as an earlier reference to rOdium. I think divided one and broken one are pretty much swappable and that the main issue with holding the shard of Odium is that the power feels all of the passions and emotions of all people and those emotions overwhelm the vessel, making it difficult for them to think logically and function properly. See Odium and Cultivation speaking below:

Quote

He stepped toward her, raising a fist, the emotions making a tempest of rage inside him. “I am the very substance of passion, and where a person suffers anywhere in this miserable galaxy, I feel it. That is the burden of this power.”

“It is why,” she said, “I called yours the most dangerous and difficult of them all.

I also think it would be pretty explicitely called out if his boon/curse was still in effect. We don't see any reference to days with more intelligence and less emotion or vice versa, just a callout to how difficult it is to manage the emotions and logic as the vessel for Odium.

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

But I don't agree on the name War, just because combined light is called Warlight. The name of the light isn't the name of its Shard. Stormlight comes from Honor not Storm, Voidlight comes from Odium not Void and combined Honor and Cultivation certainly won't be named Tower. Justice or Wrath are way better names.

I'm with you on that, but I've had a hard time thinking of one I like better so I've just gone with the one used for the lights for now. I do like Justice or Wrath though! Either way, I can see that shard combo being very dangerous for the cosmere, especially if Taravangian is in control. We see him telling Cultivation that he needs to get rid of all the other gods, and he even calls them out as being responsible for all the problems in the cosmere. He could very well feel that he needs to bring 'Justice' and/or 'Wrath' to the cosmere in the form of an intergalactic war.

[Elder]

I’m kinda wondering about “the Night.”  Assuming it’s not Sja-Anat (or maybe even if it is), I wonder if Cryptics and/or Inkspren might not be somewhat related to The Night.

There needs to be a Truth/Knowledge god/shard.  Seems like it would be a Shard, but not necessarily.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

This is actually possible. 

  Hide contents

CephandriusTW

Stormfather once said that "Three of sixteen ruled but now the Broken One reigns" and that "Odium reigns", is not crazy to think that Odium is the Broken One. My question is, could be possible to fuse Odium's shard (without Rayse) with the remanents of Honor (his Cognitive Shadow) in order to create a new whole Shard? Could Dalinar do something like that? He would be uniting them (two Shards, one of them supposed to be the Broken One and the other that we actually now is a bit broken).

Brandon Sanderson

[That] is possible

Oh wow! Yeah so it's already out there as a confirmed possibility! Now I'm even more convinced!

1 minute ago, Elder said:

I’m kinda wondering about “the Night.”  Assuming it’s not Sja-Anat (or maybe even if it is), I wonder if Cryptics and/or Inkspren might not be somewhat related to The Night.

There needs to be a Truth/Knowledge god/shard.  Seems like it would be a Shard, but not necessarily.

It sounds like the Night just up and left and no one really interacted with them much. But someone else called out above that it would be interesting to see if the Night has any ties to The Night Brigade from the sunlit man.....

[coolsnow7]

16 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Justice or Wrath are way better names.

Vengeance, my friend. Vengeance. 

[alder24]

4 minutes ago, coolsnow7 said:

Vengeance, my friend. Vengeance. 

Wrath:

1.  strong vengeful anger or indignation
2.  retributory punishment for an offense or a crime : divine chastisement

I like Wrath more than Vengeance, it's stronger, but Vengeance fits well too. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

To me Wrath feels too much like what Odium already is - it may be a little more "just", but most people wouldn't think about it that way. I am a fan of War, but also War as a concept is complicated (and God of War is... you know a little overdone).

52 minutes ago, The Stick said:

The best thing Dalinar could foreseeabley do is to pick up Honor, make many oaths restricting himself and his action, swear to remain on some random planet with no inhabitants, swear to never make mischief, and swear to follow all these oaths for eternity. Then, he should just try to tempt Todium to take the Shard, and all the corresponding oaths. "Oh, hi Taravangian. You are looking good today. I changed my mind about you, so please take this totally not booby trapped piece of infinite power from me." I guess if they found out about the Kharbranth oath, he could also swear to destroy Kharbranth, which would paralyze Taravangian if he took it.

I don't know if this would work - mostly because I don't know if Taravangian would fall for it - but it is a point that Dalinar could swear as Honor not to do certain things, in the eventuality that he becomes Honor then loses and falls. 

Only issue with that is, I'm not sure how that would work. I think he'd have to swear to someone (Cultivation, most likely), and then if he breaks his word Cultivation gains power over him. But if he breaks his word to Odium, then Odium gets loosed on the greater cosmere. 

 

17 minutes ago, Elder said:

There needs to be a Truth/Knowledge god/shard.  Seems like it would be a Shard, but not necessarily.

WoB Spoilers:

Spoiler

We know the last unnamed shard is approximately Wisdom/Knowledge/Prudence or similar. Hoid mentions him and wisdom being at cross-purposes, and there's a few other nods he gives. I think we'll learn the real name somewhere in WaT as well.

 

Another thing I'm realizing - in earlier chapters it seems the Wind and the Stormfather were seperate entities. But here Ivory says that the Stormfather came from the Wind.

Odd.

[Elder]

22 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

To me Wrath feels too much like what Odium already is - it may be a little more "just", but most people wouldn't think about it that way. I am a fan of War, but also War as a concept is complicated (and God of War is... you know a little overdone).

I don't know if this would work - mostly because I don't know if Taravangian would fall for it - but it is a point that Dalinar could swear as Honor not to do certain things, in the eventuality that he becomes Honor then loses and falls. 

Only issue with that is, I'm not sure how that would work. I think he'd have to swear to someone (Cultivation, most likely), and then if he breaks his word Cultivation gains power over him. But if he breaks his word to Odium, then Odium gets loosed on the greater cosmere. 

 

WoB Spoilers:

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We know the last unnamed shard is approximately Wisdom/Knowledge/Prudence or similar. Hoid mentions him and wisdom being at cross-purposes, and there's a few other nods he gives. I think we'll learn the real name somewhere in WaT as well.

 

Another thing I'm realizing - in earlier chapters it seems the Wind and the Stormfather were seperate entities. But here Ivory says that the Stormfather came from the Wind.

Odd.

The Wind has been talking to Kaladin.  The Storm to Dalinar.

The Sibling describes itself as the child of Honor and Cultivation, but it’s also the Legacy of the Stone, and was formed from Stone.  The Wind and Storm are not the same.  Nor are the Stone and Sibling.  The Night and Nightwatcher are wholly separate.
 

Spoiler

“When were you created, Sibling?” Jasnah asked.

“Some six thousand years ago, when the Stones wanted a legacy in the form of a child of Honor and Cultivation. Back when Bondsmiths bonded not to spren, but to the ancient forces, left by gods.”

“And the Stormfather?”

“Soon before me.”

“That’s inaccurate though,” Jasnah said. “Dalinar speaks of the Stormfather having existed when people first came to Roshar, seventhousand years ago. The Stormfather remembers that event, and detailed the timing.”

“It has been confusing,” the Sibling said, “to learn of all that has happened while I slept. I knew the Stormfather when he was young. I, formed from the Stone, which was the sibling of Wind and Night. The Night left. Few loved her, or even spoke of her, and it seems Mother replaced her with a being of some of the same essence. A new creature, unconnected to anyone’s perception.

Edited October 14, 2024 by Elder

[Ashbringer he/him]

Just now, Elder said:

The Wind has been talking to Kaladin.  The Storm to Dalinar.

The Sibling describes itself as the child of Honor and Cultivation, but it’s also the Legacy of the Stone, and was formed from Stone.  

As Jasnah notes, the Sibling isn't entirely accurate. The Stormfather's been around for a very long time - before we thought that the Wind was an old partially-replaced entity and the Stormfather grew from Storm, but the Sibling says the Stormfather was formed from Wind.

It's also hard to interpret what the Sibling means about Night - whether the replacement is the Nightwatcher, or the Nightwatcher being formed from Night is seperate from the Night leaving and being replaced by some third thing.

[Elder]

8 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

As Jasnah notes, the Sibling isn't entirely accurate. The Stormfather's been around for a very long time - before we thought that the Wind was an old partially-replaced entity and the Stormfather grew from Storm, but the Sibling says the Stormfather was formed from Wind.

It's also hard to interpret what the Sibling means about Night - whether the replacement is the Nightwatcher, or the Nightwatcher being formed from Night is seperate from the Night leaving and being replaced by some third thing.

I wonder if the Night isn’t seeding something for the future quintet… the return of the Night.   We’ll see.

and yes, there’s definitely something off with the timeline here…

of course, we also now know that the Stormfather hasn’t been completely honest…. And who’s to say whether he relates the memories of the Storm, Wind, Honor, or Tanavast.  We’re probably about to find out.

[the_archduke]

12 minutes ago, Elder said:

 

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“When were you created, Sibling?” Jasnah asked.

“Some six thousand years ago, when the Stones wanted a legacy in the form of a child of Honor and Cultivation. Back when Bondsmiths bonded not to spren, but to the ancient forces, left by gods.”

“And the Stormfather?”

“Soon before me.”

“That’s inaccurate though,” Jasnah said. “Dalinar speaks of the Stormfather having existed when people first came to Roshar, seventhousand years ago. The Stormfather remembers that event, and detailed the timing.”

 

This may just be the Sibling considering thousands of years elapsing as "soon" possibly because the Sibling was asleep for long periods

[alder24]

10 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

As Jasnah notes, the Sibling isn't entirely accurate. The Stormfather's been around for a very long time - before we thought that the Wind was an old partially-replaced entity and the Stormfather grew from Storm, but the Sibling says the Stormfather was formed from Wind.

The Stormfather was changed when he merged with Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow and that's why he doesn't remember well what happened before Honor's death - but he does remember something. I think he remembers Ashyn's migration, which happened a whole 1000 years before he was created in his first form, because that's Tanavast's memory, not his. And that's probably why there is discrepancy between the Sibling's words and the Stormfather. OB ch 113:

Quote

“The Almighty kept this from his Radiants,” Dalinar said. “When they discovered it, they abandoned their vows.”
It is more than that. My memory of all this is … strange. First, I was not fully awake; I was but the spren of a storm. Then I was like a child. Changed and shaped during the frantic last days of a dying god.
But I do remember.

 

[Ashbringer he/him]

6 minutes ago, alder24 said:

The Stormfather was changed when he merged with Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow and that's why he doesn't remember well what happened before Honor's death - but he does remember something. I think he remembers Ashyn's migration, which happened a whole 1000 years before he was created in his first form, because that's Tanavast's memory, not his. And that's probably why there is discrepancy between the Sibling's words and the Stormfather. OB ch 113:

I think the Stormfather's "first form" was way back as Storm (or Wind) when the highstorms were first created by Adonalsium - and that was waaaay before Ashyn. But he wasn't particularly sentient back then. (The Sibling also didn't exist, presumably.)

My focus is more on the Sibling thinking the Wind became the Stormfather, when we see the Wind talking to Kaladin as still Wind and in a different voice than the Stormfather speaks.

15 minutes ago, Elder said:

I wonder if the Night isn’t seeding something for the future quintet… the return of the Night.   We’ll see.

There is a Death Rattle that the Night will reign...

Something is very strange, that's for sure.