Inability of Shards to break oaths

[MarcieIsForager She/They]

Do we have an actual mechanical explaination why shards cant break oaths.

Like i considered a few angles:

Intent as in it would go counter to the Shards Intent to break an Oath, tho tbh i can only see that apply to Honor, Preservation maybe, Autonomy too perhaps, but not really Odium, Ruin, Cultivation.

Then i thought it might be an incantion like something that purposebinds the power with a very specific command, but those require intent and if you full intend to break the oath anyway that wouldn't do anything im pretty sure.

I dont think its just peer pressure from other shard, like maybe for some agreement but like surely not all.

And then my pet theory, the shards dont have perfectly pure intent but actually have other shardic intent inbuilt as failsafes, like an Honor component that kinda gives an autoimmune response the moment a shard directly breaks an oath, which then gives other shard oppertunity to attack you, tho thats also shaky cause presumably you could excise it if you do it right.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

As far as I'm aware, there is no "cannonized" explanation, the phenomena is simply left to be self-evident as a fundamental rule of nature that is so base as to be of practically zeroth order.

My interpretation of it? The shards are each the living personifications of a characteristic. IE: They are so ironclad in their self definition that they could no more break their word than water at room temperature and ambient pressure could stop being "wet."

Imagine an artificial intelligence that was so ungodly complicated, but also so transparently and perfectly self-contained, that it walked around in public with fully open-source code and didn't regard that fact as in any way special or unique because it didn't have a meaningful concept of lying about what itself or ever being able to hide. That's how I imagine shards to be. The language necessary for a Shard to "break" its word simply isn't built into the metaphysical framework of the story. They seem to only be able to lie about things that don't involve or affect themselves personally.

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, MarcieIsForager said:

Do we have an actual mechanical explaination why shards can't break oaths.
 

This is not entirely correct. Shards can break Oaths, but doing so makes them vulnerable which is why the Visions implied Odium would not break his Oath - because he very much does not want to be vulnerable to anthing or anyone. 

Spoiler

Quote

Kyrroti

Shards can't break oaths, and new Vessels have to follow previous Shards' deals. Ruin and Preservation made a deal. Does Harmony have to follow that deal?

Brandon Sanderson

The Ruin and Preservation deal is considered fulfilled. There's a lot of things going on in here. The way that oaths work, perception is still important. And Shards can break deals, it gives others a way to get at them. Odium could break his deal, but if he did, that's very dangerous to those who would seek to have advantage against him. I think fulfilled is the wrong term, the deal between Ruin and Preservation is broken, and no longer in force because it was broken. This does leave Ruin with more advantage in this situation, but they're the same individual, so I'm sure that's just fine! No problems at all! Everybody's doing just great.

Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 22, 2021)

Quote

Questioner

It’s really heavily implied in the first Oathbringer letter that the Shards made a pact not to settle near each other. Given that a full half of the Shards ended up doing that, what is the cost for them breaking that oath? You implied earlier that there’s always a cost for Hoid, for taking his protections.

Brandon Sanderson

The wording of those things allows them to agree together, but it also gives them a little bit of power over one another, and you’ve seen the side effects of that on the planets where it’s happened. It has not gone well for any of them, if you kind of run the numbers on that. But the wording of it allows two, later on, to say, "Okay, we both agree." (If one said no and one said yes, then they were in trouble.) This should imply to you that Odium did get permission, as well.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

It is implied that this vulnerability is part of how Odium Splintered the Shards he attacked before going to Roshar. 

Hope that helps

Edited October 14, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Duxredux he/him]

I wish I had the text in front of me, there are major downsides to primarily consuming the Cosmere in an audio format, particularly searching for specific phrases and transcribing quotations. We get in-world confirmation of what @Treamayne was describing in RoW when Odium explains that he cannot agree to the terms of the contest as designed by Wit. I'm going off of memory, but it was something along the lines of "Odium cannot agree to the terms, breaking his word would create a hole is his power that others could exploit." Something like that. It should be in chapter 112 of RoW.

[MarcieIsForager She/They]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

This is not entirely correct. Shards can break Oaths, but doing so makes them vulnerable which is wht the Visions implied Odium would not break his Oath - because he very much does not want to be vulnerable to anthing or anyone. 

That was my bad on wording thats what i was actually referring to.

[Treamayne]

17 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I wish I had the text in front of me, there are major downsides to primarily consuming the Cosmere in an audio format, particularly searching for specific phrases and transcribing quotations. We get in-world confirmation of what @Treamayne was describing in RoW when Odium explains that he cannot agree to the terms of the contest as designed by Wit. I'm going off of memory, but it was something along the lines of "Odium cannot agree to the terms, breaking his word would create a hole is his power that others could exploit." Something like that. It should be in chapter 112 of RoW.

Here is the text, but ROdium does not say this is because of Oaths (keeping or breaking) but because of how the Everstorm changed his Connection (?) to Roshar.

RoW Ch 112:

Spoiler

Quote

 

The light pulsed inside Odium and he turned his eyes back toward the horizon. “I … cannot agree to this.”

“The terms are simple,” Dalinar said. “If you—”

“I said I cannot agree,” Odium said. “The Everstorm has changed everything, and Cephandrius should have realized this. Singers can adopt Regal forms powered by the Everstorm. The Fused are free now; they can be reborn without my intervention. The Oathpact could have imprisoned them, but it is now defunct. I am literally unable to do as you ask, not without destroying myself in the process.”

 

And remembered from Wit:

Quote

Stand firm, Dalinar thought to himself. Wit says he can’t hurt you. Not without breaking his word … not without inviting his own death …

Wit hadn’t included that last part. But Dalinar stood his ground, sweating, his heart racing. Until at last the power abated, the heat and light retreating.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2024 by Treamayne
Update Ref/SPAG

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

We get in-world confirmation of what @Treamayne was describing in RoW when Odium explains that he cannot agree to the terms of the contest as designed by Wit. I'm going off of memory, but it was something along the lines of "Odium cannot agree to the terms, breaking his word would create a hole is his power that others could exploit." Something like that. It should be in chapter 112 of RoW.

The quote @Treamayne described in his first  post and another one expanding on his previous quote. Is this what you had in mind?

Quote

“I cannot break my word,” Odium said, the heat increasing. “I basically am incapable of it.”
“Basically?” Dalinar pressed. “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.”
“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me."
[...]
“I’ve offered you an agreement,” Dalinar said.
“I’ve told you that I cannot keep to these terms. I can seal myself away, but not my minions. I can demand that the Fused and the Unmade retreat—but not all currently obey my will. And I can do nothing about the Regals.”

 

[Duxredux he/him]

3 hours ago, alder24 said:

The quote @Treamayne described in his first  post and another one expanding on his previous quote. Is this what you had in mind?

 

Yup, that's the quote I was thinking of. Thanks!

[AonOmi]

This is my simplified take on the mechanism.

when a shard makes an oath such as to the contest of champions they create a sort of if-statement in the vessel's spiritual identity. breaking that oath presumably would further the distance between the vessel's and shard's spiritual identities lessening their connection and thus their power leaving them open to attack.

I know this has a couple of complications but this is my favored theory.

[coolsnow7]

On 10/14/2024 at 4:20 AM, MarcieIsForager said:

Do we have an actual mechanical explaination why shards cant break oaths.

The correct answer to your question is no. And indeed, we’ve gotten many, many hints that “the nature of oaths” is of crucial importance to the functioning of the Cosmere - and that we’ll get some explanations in Book 5 of Stormlight. So it’s a good question and I hope no one around here tries to convince you that they have answers.

[AonOmi]

One topic that could lead to truth is manipulating the vessels' spiritual identity and spiritual connection. something to consider at least