Kandra Flaw Hypotheses

[Duxredux he/him]

Hi all, I know we've been trying to figure out Kandra spikes for over a decade, so apologies if I'm rehashing something. In fact I'm sure someone made most of this theory, I'm just adding a couple of pieces that I don't remember being addressed.

To start I'll begin with the events that led to the creation of the Mistwraiths. Rashek, a Feruchemist, took the power at the Well of Ascension and Ascended. During this process he learned of Hemalurgy along with the mechanism to create first Inquisitors, then Koloss. He also discovered the concentrated power sitting in the Lerasium beads near the Well, the power of Allomancy that could grant incredible abilities to an entire lineage. He found a way to give favored allies power - but also a terrible risk should Allomancy ever be combined with Feruchemy to enable Compounding. I assume he also learned the secrets of Atium that would grant him extreme longevity. He was immortal and planned to use again the Well of Ascension after a thousand years, what should he do to ensure that no one would rise to challenge him? He needed to get rid of every other Feruchemist, lest a descendent gain the power of Compounding. Rashek reached out to all of his closest friends and offered them immortality - and was shocked when his uncle Kwaan rejected him. Rashek learned that while holding Preservation's power he couldn't bring lethal force against his uncle, but he could still forcibly Preserve, manipulating all Feruchemists into the long-lived nigh-indestructable Mistwraiths.

This is where I get into speculation. Rashek was faced with a conundrum. He wanted to make sure that none of these terrifyingly capable beings could oppose him, but he also wanted to keep his closest friends near him. I suspect it is at this stage that Mistwraiths had their Cognitive aspect blocked from their physical body and reduced to mindless beings of instinct. Hemalurgy which pierced the Realms could forcibly connect the mind to the body as well as provide a lever to control the Kandra.

Wait a moment, we've gotten nearly straight confirmation that Kelsier stapled his soul onto a Mistwraith wearing his bones. If a mind can supplant a Mistwraith what would stop the souls harvested for the Kandra Blessings from influencing the recipient? Presumably the donors were prisoners, executed, or others viewed as expendable to Rashek and unlikely to view him kindly or with loyalty. We know that there is an element of Identity to Hemalurgic spikes, even if the spike in question does not specifically harvest Identity, memories, or Connection. Rashek would want to preserve the minds of his friends, not replace them. Here I wonder if Identity was stripped from the donor, leaving not even a hint of a grudge toward the being who came to be known as the Kandra's Father.

The next thoughts are speculation as to why Kandra are so susceptible to the Hemalurgic Flaw. First assumption is that the Hemalurgic spike itself creates a foothold in the soul, a conduit for external influence that is separate but related to the fissures in the soul. My example is Spook ripping out his A-Pewter spike and immediately becoming unable to hear Ruin despite having a soul cracked enough to receive a dream message from Kelsier. Next thought is that Kandra are Hemalurgically fragile because they themselves have to influence their body via their spikes - they are also an external influence that must compete for control rather than naturally from within. This is likely why the Blessing of Prescence allows Kandra to resist the Flaw as it strengthens their own control over their body. Last thought but is likely the least contributing factor, we know that when a Ferring stores their Identity, they become more susceptible to emotional Allomancy and other changes like Forgery. What if the Identity keying a spike provides some interference that is absent from an unkeyed spike? Perhaps related to this is that I suspect Hemalurgic spikes always provide a foothold - possibly even more so should a spike degrade (with maybe the Identity keying also lessening) as was the case for the old Inquisitor spike that became Wax's Pathian earring and the bullet used to stop Paalm.

I'll also add that if Identity-free spikes are how Kandra Blessings are made and that there are further ramifications, that would explain why Brandon has RAFO'd it all these years.

 

Looking ahead to future Cosmere interactions, we may see Mistwraiths uplifted to full intelligence without Hemalurgy. Perhaps a Bondsmith or hijo could form a Connection bridging the block between Cognitive and Physical.

Thoughts? Most of this is not new, I'm simply trying to put the pieces together. It did lead to the thought that perhaps the Heralds have formed blocks between their tortured physical selves and their minds, but I'll make a separate topic for that. 

Edited October 4, 2024 by Duxredux

[Dofurion]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Looking ahead to future Cosmere interactions, we may see Mistwraiths uplifted to full intelligence without Hemalurgy. Perhaps a Bondsmith or hijo could form a Connection bridging the block between Cognitive and Physical.

I've been playing with the idea of "Kandra Dragons" for a while now, without explaining much about the name, it's basically based on the assumption that if a Kandra reached 5th ideal, it could do without its spikes.

And in a larger time frame, if enough time passes for the Mistwraiths to adjust to the ecology of Roshar, they might well acquire a Nahel like the eels or the Rishadium.

[Trusk'our he/him]

10 hours ago, Duxredux said:

Rashek learned that while holding Preservation's power he couldn't bring lethal force against his uncle, but he could still forcibly Preserve, manipulating all Feruchemists into the long-lived nigh-indestructable Mistwraiths.

Technically, those original Mistwraiths would have died out relatively quickly unless transformed into Kandra, as Mistwraiths' natural lifespan is only about 50 years.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/270-the-hero-of-ages-annotations/#e8053

Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Eighty - Part Two

Sazed Sees Mistwraiths

I worry that I didn't get to show mistwraiths very much in this book. It's not that big of an issue—they're only a minor world feature, and are only tangentially important. Still, they're a part of the kandra past and culture, and I want readers to understand what they are and what they have to do with the kandra life cycle.

Remember, all of the kandra save for the First Generation were born first as mistwraiths. That race of creatures breeds true, and has only a fifty-year lifespan. They die off, but birth new members. Taking one of those new members and adding spikes to them, however, awakens them and brings them sentience. They're part human, just like the koloss who remember having once been human.

 

10 hours ago, Duxredux said:

This is where I get into speculation. Rashek was faced with a conundrum. He wanted to make sure that none of these terrifyingly capable beings could oppose him, but he also wanted to keep his closest friends near him. I suspect it is at this stage that Mistwraiths had their Cognitive aspect blocked from their physical body and reduced to mindless beings of instinct. Hemalurgy which pierced the Realms could forcibly connect the mind to the body as well as provide a lever to control the Kandra.

This is possible, but I believe most if not all of Rashek's knowledge over Hemalurgy came from Ruin's whispers, not directly from Preservation's expansion of the mind. As such, the Koloss, Kandra, and Inquisitors were probably tailored suit TLR's needs, yes, but only so that they would ultimately be exploitable to Ruin's own benefit.

This would make sense for Ruin, as instead of just giving Rashek the knowledge of making a fully fledged Kandra from a human, he gave a deliberately unfinished blueprint so that they would have an exploit for his influence. 

Spoiler

https://coppermind.net/wiki/The_Hero_of_Ages/Epigraphs

Hero of Ages Epigraphs: 8-9

Allomancy was, indeed, born with the mists. Or, at least, Allomancy began at the same time as the mists' first appearances. When Rashek took the power at the Well of Ascension, he became aware of certain things. Some were whispered to him by Ruin; others were granted to him as an instinctive part of the power.

One of these was an understanding of the Three Metallic Arts. He knew, for instance, that the nuggets of metal in the Chamber of Ascension would make those who ingested them into Mistborn. These were, after all, fractions of the very power in the Well itself.

Quote

The next thoughts are speculation as to why Kandra are so susceptible to the Hemalurgic Flaw. First assumption is that the Hemalurgic spike itself creates a foothold in the soul, a conduit for external influence that is separate but related to the fissures in the soul. My example is Spook ripping out his A-Pewter spike and immediately becoming unable to hear Ruin despite having a soul cracked enough to receive a dream message from Kelsier.

I think that there is an added influence to Hemalurgic constructs from Ruin specifically, as they not only have cracks in the Spiritweb, but are Connected to that Shard's Intent. 

Other Shards' influence would be milder, at least without additional Connection, I think.

Quote

Next thought is that Kandra are Hemalurgically fragile because they themselves have to influence their body via their spikes - they are also an external influence that must compete for control rather than naturally from within. 

Honestly, I've wondered a ton about what specifically makes Kandra so special: they can shapeshift into almost any biological form, are nearly ageless despite not being super Invested, and they have an uncanny level of vulnerability to the Flaw despite their high intelligence. 

My current best guess is that Kandra have flexible Spiritwebs, maybe having a special shapeshifting "attribute" in their Spiritual Aspect. It seems less likely to be physical to me, as Kandra are likely able to mimic DNA (and while the most recent WoB on the matter says they can have children with humans, they would be a hybrid of some kind, perhaps in a similar fashion to how Allomantic and Feruchemical sDNA is transferable regardless of the Kandra's new physical DNA's structure).

This "shapeshifting attribute" would mimic what Hemalurgy does to transform others, but is innately part of Mistwraiths.

This might also play into why they can't replicate bones, teeth, hair, or nails as it isn't a matter of physical chemistry, but some kind of spiritual ideal they can't change.

As for why Kandra are so vulnerable to the Flaw, I think it might be that their Spiritwebs, being so flexible, are also easier to mess with due to that lessened rigidity.

These are all hypothetical though, so take them with a pinch of copper. 

Quote

Looking ahead to future Cosmere interactions, we may see Mistwraiths uplifted to full intelligence without Hemalurgy. Perhaps a Bondsmith or hijo could form a Connection bridging the block between Cognitive and Physical.

I think this is fairly plausible. 

As long as you can find a way to breech that blockage, you're good.

More likely I think they'll just find a way to manufacture Hemalurgic spikes in a cleaner fashion, but other alternatives should be possible, I believe. 

Very interesting ideas Dux, thanks for sharing!

Edited October 5, 2024 by Trusk'our

[therunner he/him]

On 10/5/2024 at 2:17 AM, Trusk'our said:

This is possible, but I believe most if not all of Rashek's knowledge over Hemalurgy came from Ruin's whispers, not directly from Preservation's expansion of the mind. As such, the Koloss, Kandra, and Inquisitors were probably tailored suit TLR's needs, yes, but only so that they would ultimately be exploitable to Ruin's own benefit.

This would make sense for Ruin, as instead of just giving Rashek the knowledge of making a fully fledged Kandra from a human, he gave a deliberately unfinished blueprint so that they would have an exploit for his influence.

This could not be the case.

One, Ruin did not pay attention to Rashek until Rashek killed Alendi, who was the one Ruin was manipulating at the moment (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243-hero-of-ages-qa-time-wasters-guide/#e5767).

Two, at least part of the knowledge was instinctive, and Ruin would have only short moments to whisper anything to Rashek. I doubt he could influence him once he wielded the power of the Well (it is after all, of Preservation), especially since it lasted only few moments. See HoA epigrah 44, it references his knowledge of Hemalurgy as 'instinctive'.

Three, ultimately while theoretically instruments of Ruin, all three creations played part in his undoing:

• Simplicity of Koloss let Vin and co. understand the Flaw and more about Hemalurgy. This in turn saved Vin's life, when she connected the dots and controlled Ten'Soon.
• Kandra, though by Ruin to be easily corrupted because of their susceptibility, were actually a trap, thanks to the Resolution.
• Inquisitors could shake off Ruin's control in moments of great emotion or through willpower. This let Marsh save Vin and allow her Ascension at critical moment.

So all three of Hemalurgic constructs ended up acting more as a trap to Ruin, being something he though was his, and that was used against him in the end.

So even if part of Hemalurgic knowledge was granted by Ruin, I don't think it was all of it, and ultimately Rashek managed to turn it into an advantage (certainly in the case of Kandra.)

Edited October 6, 2024 by therunner

[Trusk'our he/him]

33 minutes ago, therunner said:

This could not be the case.

That's certainly possible. Thinking about it more, perhaps even likely. 

Perhaps Ruin whispered the initial knowledge of "hey, there's a magic known as 'Hemalurgy' that you can use to make servants and control them" and then Rashek experimented a little with the Well and made them more independently. 

This could be a similar situation to another Todium needing to know what to search for, but could relatively easily unlock Hemalurgy's knowledge:

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/522-dragonsteel-2023/#e16293

Questioner

When somebody takes up a Shard, do they inherently get knowledge when they get that Shard? For example, does Taravangian know about hemalurgy, now, just because he took up a Shard? Or was that just Ruin's...?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. Taking up a Shard is going to impart a large amount of knowledge, more than even a Shard can process immediately, and it will take some time. And it's going to give you the ability to access a lot of other kinds of knowledge. Shards aren't omnipresent, but they kind of are; they are able to do many things at once, they are able to focus on places and be aware of that location in a lot of instances. But at the same time, they are limited in their ability to... they don't know everything. They might be able to get access to most things, but it takes conscious... like, "I need to know this. I need to find it out. It happens it's written in a book that I can just... it's on this other planet, and I absorb it and immediately know." Assuming it's not written in a way that you can't access, which certain formats make it hard to do.

So, Taravangian, if he cared to think about what hemalurgy is, it's well enough known that he could be like, "I wonder if there's a way to steal... Oh, it's this. This is how it works on this planet." That would be an almost instantaneous thing for him to be able to learn, if he wanted to. But does he hold it in his head right now? That remains to be seen.

 

[therunner he/him]

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Perhaps Ruin whispered the initial knowledge of "hey, there's a magic known as 'Hemalurgy' that you can use to make servants and control them" and then Rashek experimented a little with the Well and made them more independently.

Hemalurgy was already known during Classical Scadrial, hence why there were 'Piercings of the Hero' Alendi bore. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e5767)
That could have been enough for Rashek to have that seed of knowledge to start asking the right questions once Ascended.

[alder24]

14 hours ago, therunner said:

This could not be the case.

This was certainly the case, confirmed by HoA ch 9 epigraphs - Ruin was whispering to Rashek during his Ascension and made him at least partially aware of Hemalurgy.

Quote

Allomancy was, indeed, born with the mists. Or, at least, Allomancy began at the same time as the mists' first appearances. When Rashek took the power at the Well of Ascension, he became aware of certain things. Some were whispered to him by Ruin; others were granted to him as an instinctive part of the power.

One of these was an understanding of the Three Metallic Arts. He knew, for instance, that the nuggets of metal in the Chamber of Ascension would make those who ingested them into Mistborn. These were, after all, fractions of the very power in the Well itself.

But yes, Rashek purposefully created his Hemalurgic constructs with built-in flaws, eave if Ruin made him aware of Hemalurgy and maybe even guided him when creating those constructs. Rashek's awareness granted by the power of the Well allowed him to deceive Ruin in the end. 

 

14 hours ago, therunner said:

I doubt he could influence him once he wielded the power of the Well (it is after all, of Preservation), especially since it lasted only few moments

Ruin influenced Vin when she was holding the power of the Well and Shards can perceive time differently.

 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Hemalurgy was already known during Classical Scadrial, hence why there were 'Piercings of the Hero' Alendi bore. (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/243/#e5767)
That could have been enough for Rashek to have that seed of knowledge to start asking the right questions once Ascended.

I don't think it was known, the piercings was Ruin's manipulation but it doesn't mean Hemalurgy was known - metalmind earrings are piercings as well. Alendi had no knowledge about either Allomancy or Feruchemy, and without that, Hemalurgy is mostly useless. Alendi was spiked with A-bronze, but that was most likely done in the same was as Vin's spike. 

[therunner he/him]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

This was certainly the case, confirmed by HoA ch 9 epigraphs - Ruin was whispering to Rashek during his Ascension and made him at least partially aware of Hemalurgy.

Not certainly, possibly.
Some whispered, some granted as instinctive.

Quote

Allomancy was, indeed, born with the mists. Or, at least, Allomancy began at the same time as the mists' first appearances. When Rashek took the power at the Well of Ascension, he became aware of certain things. Some were whispered to him by Ruin; others were granted to him as an instinctive part of the power.

One of these was an understanding of the Three Metallic Arts. He knew, for instance, that the nuggets of metal in the Chamber of Ascension would make those who ingested them into Mistborn. These were, after all, fractions of the very power in the Well itself.

And in other epigraph it talks about Rashek's instictive knowledge of Hemalurgy, and how without it, he would be unable to use it at all

Quote

Each spike, positioned very carefully, can determine how the recipient's body is changed by Hemalurgy. A spike in one place creates a monstrous, near-mindless beast. In another place, a spike will create a crafty—yet homicidal—Inquisitor.

Without the instinctive knowledge granted by taking the power at the Well of Ascension, Rashek would never have been able to use Hemalurgy. With his mind expanded, and with a little practice, he was able to intuit where to place spikes that would create the servants he wanted.

It is a little-known fact that the Inquisitors' torture chambers were actually Hemalurgic laboratories. The Lord Ruler was constantly trying to develop new breeds of servant. It is a testament to Hemalurgy's complexity that, despite a thousand years of trying, he never managed to create anything with it beyond the three kinds of creatures he developed during those few brief moments holding the power.

So Epigraph 9 talks about Ruin-whispered things and instinctive things, and then Epigraph 44 calls Rashek's knowledge of Hemalurgy instinctive.

As such, I still maintain that most (if not all) of Rashek's knowledge of Hemalurgy came from the power of the Well, not Ruin.

Quote

If she took the power she would have to burn it away in a few moments.

Where? Vin never took up the power of the Well, she let the power go. It is kinda key point.
Now, rereading the passage, it sounds like she is kinda "half-Ascended"? But crucially, she says this

"If" she took the power, and later

Quote

She held the capacity to become a deity in her hands, and she gave it away, releasing it to the waiting void.

"held the capacity to become", i.e. she was not yet diety.

So no, Ruin never talked to Vin when she held the power, because Vin never actually took up the power, unlike Rashek.

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think it was known, the piercings was Ruin's manipulation but it doesn't mean Hemalurgy was known - metalmind earrings are piercings as well. Alendi had no knowledge about either Allomancy or Feruchemy, and without that, Hemalurgy is mostly useless. Alendi was spiked with A-bronze, but that was most likely done in the same was as Vin's spike. 

It was known enough that there is a separate Invested art distinct from both Feruchemy and Allomancy. That would be enough for Rashek to ask the right questions once Ascending.

[alder24]

38 minutes ago, therunner said:

Not certainly, possibly.
Some whispered, some granted as instinctive.

Quote

Allomancy was, indeed, born with the mists. Or, at least, Allomancy began at the same time as the mists' first appearances. When Rashek took the power at the Well of Ascension, he became aware of certain things. Some were whispered to him by Ruin; others were granted to him as an instinctive part of the power.

One of these was an understanding of the Three Metallic Arts. He knew, for instance, that the nuggets of metal in the Chamber of Ascension would make those who ingested them into Mistborn. These were, after all, fractions of the very power in the Well itself.

And in other epigraph it talks about Rashek's instictive knowledge of Hemalurgy, and how without it, he would be unable to use it at all

Quote

Each spike, positioned very carefully, can determine how the recipient's body is changed by Hemalurgy. A spike in one place creates a monstrous, near-mindless beast. In another place, a spike will create a crafty—yet homicidal—Inquisitor.

Without the instinctive knowledge granted by taking the power at the Well of Ascension, Rashek would never have been able to use Hemalurgy. With his mind expanded, and with a little practice, he was able to intuit where to place spikes that would create the servants he wanted.

It is a little-known fact that the Inquisitors' torture chambers were actually Hemalurgic laboratories. The Lord Ruler was constantly trying to develop new breeds of servant. It is a testament to Hemalurgy's complexity that, despite a thousand years of trying, he never managed to create anything with it beyond the three kinds of creatures he developed during those few brief moments holding the power.

Expand  

So Epigraph 9 talks about Ruin-whispered things and instinctive things, and then Epigraph 44 calls Rashek's knowledge of Hemalurgy instinctive.

Ruin whispered to Rashek about Hemalurgy, encouraging him to use it. Rashek use instinctive knowledge granted by the power to create specific constructs with specific flaws. That's how I view this. Without Ruin, Rashek probably would be unable to use Hemalurgy the way he did.

And remember, this instinctive knowledge didn't came out of nowhere. Rashek had to first think of it - he tried to burn the Mists away before realizing that they are Preservation's power. Without Ruin, he might have been totally unaware of Hemalurgy.

38 minutes ago, therunner said:

Where? Vin never took up the power of the Well, she let the power go. It is kinda key point

Vin literally Ascended, she held the power of the Well and let it go. She became a Sliver. She had it in her when Ruin was talking to her. It vaporized her body. 

38 minutes ago, therunner said:

It was known enough that there is a separate Invested art distinct from both Feruchemy and Allomancy. That would be enough for Rashek to ask the right questions once Ascending.

Disagree. There is nothing to suggest that pre-Rashek Scadrial knew anything about Hemalurgy. 

Edited October 7, 2024 by alder24