Hypothesis: The Stormfather is wrong about Bondsmiths

[Duxredux he/him]

At the core of my hypothesis is that what we have been told about the limitations on Bondsmiths are wrong. I don't doubt that there can only be three of them (yet), likely the Stormfather, Sibling, and Nightwatcher, but I suspect that they can gain Shards and they can gain squires contrary to history. It is the Stormfather that tells Dalinar that he will be a Radiant without Shards.

Basically, I wonder if Dalinar is the first Bondsmith to identify the Third Ideal of Bondsmiths. Long shot I know, but the Stormfather was surprised and seemed off balance when Dalinar swore the Third Ideal. 

"These Words . . . are accepted, the Stormfather said, sounding stunned. How? What have you done?"

What if Dalinar is the first? A Radiant must have the Third Ideal to gain a Blade and to have squires. We know that Dalinar did something to the Stormfather when he tried to summon him as a Shardblade to operate the Oathgate. We know Gloryspren circled Dalinar as he first opened a Perpendicularity. We also know that something was unusual was happening to Navani as she could see into the Realms whenever Dalinar opened a Perpendicularity even though others like Rushu could not. What if Navani was on the edge of becoming Dalinar's squire as she worked with him to unite Roshar? They assumed that Bondsmiths were different, that they could not have squires, nor shards, that they were powerful enough as it was. What if no other had progressed beyond the 2nd Ideal, assuming that the power gained at that degree was all they needed or could obtain?

Thoughts?

[Quantus he/him]

I Highly doubt that the Stormfather or the Sibling could ever Manifest a blade without significant fallout. The blades are the Physical Form of the spren pulled into the physical world, but the Stormfather already has that in the Highstorm and the Sibling has it in the Tower so to force them to manifest a Blade could very much threated the Highstorm or the Tower's existence.  WOb says it's Possible but Highly implausible, especially for the Sibling. The Stormfather might be more capable now compared to before he was Tanavast's ghost.  

 

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dresdentc24

Can other Bondsmith spren become Blades for their Bondsmith? And how would it affect the Tower if the Sibling became a Blade?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm gonna say it's outside the realm of plausibility for the Sibling right now. Is it possible for the other two, yes. It's possible but implausible. Highly implausible for the Sibling.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

 

That being said, I think the only reason that there were previously 3 Bondsmiths was because there were only 2 shards creating 3 Lights and 3 Pure Tones of Roshar.  Now that there is another Shard that created 3 more Tones and corresponding lights, I think we'll more Bondsmiths, most likely Bonded to three of the Intelligent Unmade (My bets are on BAM, Sja-Anat, and the Everstorm Spren that Im convinced exists.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

At the core of my hypothesis is that what we have been told about the limitations on Bondsmiths are wrong. I don't doubt that there can only be three of them (yet), likely the Stormfather, Sibling, and Nightwatcher, but I suspect that they can gain Shards and they can gain squires contrary to history. It is the Stormfather that tells Dalinar that he will be a Radiant without Shards.

Basically, I wonder if Dalinar is the first Bondsmith to identify the Third Ideal of Bondsmiths. Long shot I know, but the Stormfather was surprised and seemed off balance when Dalinar swore the Third Ideal. 

"These Words . . . are accepted, the Stormfather said, sounding stunned. How? What have you done?"

What if Dalinar is the first? A Radiant must have the Third Ideal to gain a Blade and to have squires. We know that Dalinar did something to the Stormfather when he tried to summon him as a Shardblade to operate the Oathgate. We know Gloryspren circled Dalinar as he first opened a Perpendicularity. We also know that something was unusual was happening to Navani as she could see into the Realms whenever Dalinar opened a Perpendicularity even though others like Rushu could not. What if Navani was on the edge of becoming Dalinar's squire as she worked with him to unite Roshar? They assumed that Bondsmiths were different, that they could not have squires, nor shards, that they were powerful enough as it was. What if no other had progressed beyond the 2nd Ideal, assuming that the power gained at that degree was all they needed or could obtain?

Thoughts?

Hmm, well, I do think it's a bit unlikely that ancient Bondsmiths never got past the second Oath, though it's possible that this was one way Honor "tempered" them. Just refusing them to swear any beyond the initial one or two.

As for Blades, I think it's unlikely: as @Quantus mentioned, they're the physical manifesmanifestation of the Spren, and Dalinar's shindigs in OB (when he activated the Oathgate in desperation by summoning a mass of energy) seemed to pain the Stormfather. I think he might have summoned a part of the Spren, nearly ripping it off in the process. 

Plate seems more likely though, as that's made up of Lesser Spren. Possibly Glory Spren in Dalinar's case, given OB events.

As for Squires, I actually think that this is pretty achievable, as the Bondsmiths could artificially forge the Bonds/Connections necessary. I see no reason why this couldn't be done, though admittedly we don't know enough about Godspren to say for certain yet.

Anyway, Good thoughts Dux, I liked reading them

Edited September 19, 2024 by Trusk'our

[Quantus he/him]

15 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Hmm, well, I do think it's a bit unlikely that ancient Bondsmiths never got past the second Oath, though it's possible that this was one way Honor "tempered" them. Just refusing them to swear any beyond the initial one or two.

WOB confirms they've reached 5th in the past:

 

Spoiler

 

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Mark Lindberg

Highest Ideal that a Bondsmith has ever sworn.

Brandon Sanderson

The Bondsmiths have gone all the way.

JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)

 

 

15 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

As for Blades, I think it's unlikely: as @Quantus mentioned, they're the physical manifesmanifestation of the Spren, and Dalinar's shindigs in OB (when he activated the Oathgate in desperation by summoning a mass of energy) seemed to pain the Stormfather. I think he might have summoned a part of the Spren, nearly ripping it off in the process. 

Plate seems more likely though, as that's made up of Lesser Spren. Possibly Glory Spren in Dalinar's case, given OB events.

As for Squires, I actually think that this is pretty achievable, as the Bondsmiths could artificially forge the Bonds/Connections necessary. I see no reason why this couldn't be done, though admittedly we don't know enough about Godspren to say for certain yet.

Anyway, Good thoughts Dux, I liked reading them

Yeah, the lack of squires thing never made sense to me, or at least I could never come up with an explanation beyond "Godspren Bonds are Special".  It might be interesting to discover that they'd never previously gotten Squires because they uniquely have Conscious Control of their Connections (in theory), so while other Radiants will create Squire Bonds automatically/subconsciously, Bondsmiths have to actually Choose to do it and Create the Bond with their Surges and conscious Intent etc.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

I suspect that they can gain Shards

Theoretically they can (except for the Sibling as they are the Tower), but it's highly improbable and would probably have some consequences. 

Spoiler

dresdentc24

Can other Bondsmith spren become Blades for their Bondsmith? And how would it affect the Tower if the Sibling became a Blade?

Brandon Sanderson

I'm gonna say it's outside the realm of plausibility for the Sibling right now. Is it possible for the other two, yes. It's possible but implausible. Highly implausible for the Sibling.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

and they can gain squires contrary to history.

They had squires, just with no powers:

Spoiler

Dan Wells

Sixth Epoch, Year 31, Shashaches 6.3.1.

Bondsmiths

Bondsmiths are, well... different. For starters, there are only three of them at a time, because there are only three spren that can grant Bondsmith powers. Seems kind of strange for a Radiant Order whose whole job is to bring people together, right? But, see, that's where the strangeness continues. Every Order takes squires; that's nothing new. But Bondsmiths sometimes have whole groups of servants who swear oaths but gain no powers at all. Can you imagine? I think there's something beautifully pure about that. They might be the only people in any Order who've ever taken the oaths for purely selfless reasons. They can't do any Surgebinding, they don't get spren, they just... take the oaths. Because oaths are important, and the values they swear to uphold are worth upholding.

And those values, I admit, are pretty great. Bondsmiths unite things - mostly people, but also governments and kingdoms and armies and everything else. They negotiate treaties, and resolve disputes, and help people to see each other as people, instead of as rivals or foreigners or enemies. Their main power (if you can call it a power) is to help people find common ground, and get them to agree on things, and to make those agreements matter. No matter which of the three spren they bond with (and those three spren can produce some very different textures in the bond), the thing all Bondsmiths share is that they bring people together. They make people feel included and important. Sometimes, they're in the middle of those groups, corralling the actions and holding the attention. Sometimes, they're out on the edges, watching the group they created have new ideas and activities and adventures of their own. Either way, the Bondsmith is happy.

#SayTheWords (Feb. 28, 2024)

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith

I will unite

Bondsmith oaths are focused on unity, unification, and bringing others together. However, this is a loose theme, as there are so few Bondsmiths—and the three sources of their powers are so different in personality—that the oaths can end up taking a variety of different shapes, depending on the situation.

Anyone can become a Bondsmith, subject to persuading one of the three spren who grant Bondsmith powers. Those powers tend to work differently for one Bondsmith than another, and even those Surges they share with other Orders tend to work differently for Bondsmiths.

The Bondsmiths are unusual in that there are never more than three full members. Historically, they worked to resolve disputes and help set up functioning governments. Even though there can only be three full members, there were times that some Bondsmiths did take squires. Beyond that, many of the retinues that protected the Bondsmiths were considered members of the Order–going so far as to swear oaths, even though they didn’t have a spren and never would. Some even called this the most pure form of being a Radiant, because these were oaths sworn not in the name of gaining powers, but simply for the good of the oaths themselves.

Bondsmiths are generally the heart and soul of the Radiants, the most protected and highly regarded of the Orders, capable of doing incredible things with the nature of oaths, bonds, and power. The Order, including the aforementioned squires and attendants, tends to attract the peacemakers of the world, those who want to bring people together rather than divide them.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

 

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

but the Stormfather was surprised and seemed off balance when Dalinar swore the Third Ideal. 

"These Words . . . are accepted, the Stormfather said, sounding stunned. How? What have you done?"

What if Dalinar is the first?

Because it wasn't the Stormfather who accepted those words, that's why he was surprised. They just got accepted, possibly by Dalinar himself, just like he accepted Kaladin's 4th Ideal. At this moment Dalinar was Ascending to Unity and Adonalsium only knows what this even meant. 

2 hours ago, Duxredux said:

We also know that something was unusual was happening to Navani as she could see into the Realms whenever Dalinar opened a Perpendicularity even though others like Rushu could not. What if Navani was on the edge of becoming Dalinar's squire as she worked with him to unite Roshar?

That's an interesting theory. Yeah, I can buy this. However it would also mean that she didn't get any powers (just like traditional Bondsmith squires) - only her increased Connection to Dalinar allowed her to see into SR/CR when Dalinar was opening a perpendicularity. However Rushu felt something, a tone - just like Navani did, so I think this isn't the case.  RoW ch 6:

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Navani got a better glimpse of Shadesmar this time. And again she heard that tone. That was new, wasn’t it?
[...]
“I didn’t see anything, Brightness,” Rushu said. “But … I felt something. Like a pulse, a powerful thump. For a moment I felt as if I were falling into eternity.…”