Feedback on my Own Shapeshifting Selish Magic System

[Atlas333]

As a fun creative exercise, I've been trying to create my own magic system that could theoretically exist on Sel. Sel is the perfect place for this exercise because

1. The magic system is very open-ended. Anything is possible with the right combination of aons/symbols which makes Sel a big sandbox.

2. Sel is a massive planet. We've only seen a handful of countries but have about half a dozen magic systems. Should the trend continue Sel could easily be hiding half a dozen more. 

I've worked on it myself for a while but would like some help making it "fit" better. Essentially, does it work like a cosmere magic system would, specifically a selish magic system? If not, how can it be improved?

 

Here are the ground rules for selish magics as I see them. The magics exist on a spectrum of devotion to dominion. Magic systems that lean devotion are more skill-based (aons, chayshan, and forgery) while magics that lean dominion are more sacrificial in nature (bloodsealing, darkhor, and the potions - although I don't have much proof for that last one). Additionally, every selish magic system has a focus on symbols or forms that channel the power.

 

Using those rules I came up with this:

The main use of the magic system is that by putting on masks (inlaid with aon-like symbols) the practitioners (called shifters) can transform into a specific animal. Of course, any cosmere magic system needs defined rules. Here's what I've got so far

- when transforming mass is maintained meaning that you can't become much bigger or smaller than you already are

- the animal the shifter is becoming has to be a mammal (my logic is that mammals share some body similarities. Transforming into birds, lizards or fish is theoretically possible but takes more power than the average shifter would have access to).

- transformations are fairly short; I don't imagine longer than 10 minutes although frequent use can increase this limit.

- In order to create a mask the practitioner must find the animal they want to transform into and perform a sacrificial ritual which forges a connection between the person and the animal. As part of this process, part of the animal's skull is incorporated into the mask.

- Because of this ritual a shifter can only use masks they've made. If someone else tries to wear their mask it won't have any effect.

 

That's the gist of the magic system. My goal was to take a somewhat common magic power (shapeshifting) and adapt it to the cosmere. So now I ask, does this seem realistic for a selish magic system? If not how could it be improved to better fit into the world of Sel?

(also, just as a side question I'm curious what you guys think would be useful animals to transform into. I'm struggling not to default to basics - bear, wolf, etc.-  and would appreciate some help brainstorming).

Edited September 17, 2024 by Atlas333

[Quantus he/him]

I like it! Im guessing it has a lot of realmic similarities to Forgery, as a temporary overwriting of the Spiritweb.

 

I would allow size/mass changes, at least within some categorical tiers.  Or else you'd really need to be able to scale larger creatures down to match human mass.  Otherwise the available forms will be extremely limited.  Realmically each transformation is tied to a very specific Form and Identity of the sacrificed form, so perhaps the Sacrificial ritual converts their mass to Investiture stored within the Mask itself, to be tapped for the temporary mass. It would mean that masks for larger forms are quantitatively more Invested, but otherwise Size/Mass changes via investiture are pretty common in the cosmere, so it's not as problematic as harder science settings.  Realmically it would also makes sense for it to take more Investiture to mimic a sapient species compared to an animal; Singer, Sho Dal, etc. but Kandra are probably not viable since they have no native Bones to provide the skull focus.    

 

As far as useful forms: The normal druidic things like wolf or lions and tigers and bears for combat. Horse for speed.  Various birds for specific purposes, if species can be found with compatible mass ranges.  Ditto marine mammals like dolphins. Platypus for novel sensory capabilities (might combine with F-Tin to use in human form).  Giant spiders for silk production.  Sho Dal for extra limbs, Singer for Gemhearts & rhythms. 

EDIT:  So I was thinking about this more, and if the Sacrifice ritual actually absorbs the rest of body into the mask itself, it would be easy to say that the final transformation looks just like the sacrifice.  If that's the case, a morally compromised Shifter could literally steal faces from people, and use masks to impersonate them at least as fully as Kandra, while arguably being MORE like Hemalurgy than the way they do it now since it takes a spiritweb Donor for the mask creation).  

Edited September 17, 2024 by Quantus

[Elite01]

The stealing faces is very interesting. I am a little worried about stepping on toes of kandra or hemalurgy but it can also be branded as a pattern throughout the cosmere. The entire thing does sound cool I imagine carvings on both sides of the mask to channel the Dor. 

 

It would be wild if this was real and they could go to roshar to get a whitespine transformation. 

[alder24]

5 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

Here are the ground rules for selish magics as I see them. The magics exist on a spectrum of devotion to dominion. Magic systems that lean devotion are more skill-based (aons, chayshan, and forgery) while magics that lean dominion are more sacrificial in nature (bloodsealing, darkhor, and the potions - although I don't have much proof for that last one). Additionally, every selish magic system has a focus on symbols or forms that channel the power.

 

Using those rules I came up with this:

The main use of the magic system is that by putting on masks (inlaid with aon-like symbols) the practitioners (called shifters) can transform into a specific animal. Of course, any cosmere magic system needs defined rules. Here's what I've got so far

- when transforming mass is maintained meaning that you can't become much bigger or smaller than you already are

- the animal the shifter is becoming has to be a mammal (my logic is that mammals share some body similarities. Transforming into birds, lizards or fish is theoretically possible but takes more power than the average shifter would have access to).

- transformations are fairly short; I don't imagine longer than 10 minutes although frequent use can increase this limit.

- In order to create a mask the practitioner must find the animal they want to transform into and perform a sacrificial ritual which forges a connection between the person and the animal. As part of this process, part of the animal's skull is incorporated into the mask.

- Because of this ritual a shifter can only use masks they've made. If someone else tries to wear their mask it won't have any effect.

 

That's the gist of the magic system. My goal was to take a somewhat common magic power (shapeshifting) and adapt it to the cosmere. So now I ask, does this seem realistic for a selish magic system? If not how could it be improved to better fit into the world of Sel?

(also, just as a side question I'm curious what you guys think would be useful animals to transform into. I'm struggling not to default to basics - bear, wolf, etc.-  and would appreciate some help brainstorming).

It looks good. I can already answer the last question - not a lot of animals. That's because of your first rule, mass conservation. It's a rule I don't know what you want to do with, but personally I think it's way too restrictive. The mass problem can be easily overcome with investiture and spiritual handweaving. 

My personal take on the mass conservation is to get rid of it partially, turn it into a skill based ability. A beginner Shifter can transform mainly into animals of the same mass that's because changing mass requires addition of new symbols to the mask - the bigger the change, the more complicated the symbols are needed, but they also require detailed anatomical knowledge of both human and animal body to place them in correct combination and correct places on the mask. More skilled Shifters can change into a mammal of any mass with no problems, as long as they have that knowledge. Investiture and Spiritual Realm is dealing with all mass weirdness.

Tress spoilers:

Spoiler

Truthfully, even this seems too complicated. Riina was able to turn a person into a real rat and I'm sure it requires a heck of a skill, it may not require that level of anatomical knowledge like I propose. 

Now, having this mass problem behind us, let's talk about animal types. I think the explanation for why mammals only can be as simple as Connection. It's easier to shift into animals that live closely to humans and resemble humans in their anatomy because you share a stronger Connection with them. A cow or a dog would be fairly easy to transform into, while a wolf or a bison a bit harder but still doable with some training. On the other hand a bird would be much more difficult because even though it lives close to humans, it's mostly a wild animal, with its body built totally differently. A fish is even more difficult as it shares little similarities with the human body and lives in a totally different environment. The more differences there are and the further away they live from humans (and less dependent they are frum us - the more wild they are), the smaller the Connection, the harder it is to shift into that animal and the more investiture it requires (because there is more changes you need to make to your body, plus the Connection too weak so your body resist those changes a lot - more resistance, more investiture needed to overcome that). Definitely a great rule that has some nice foundation in Cosmere rules. 

Now mask creation. Personally, just my thought and nothing more, I would make the entirety of the mask out of the skull of the killed animal. But that's just me (insert innocent face here). The skull would have to be reshaped into a one primary shape that's based on the land from where the magic originate - just like every Aon is based on Aon Aon, the skull/mask has to be shaped into a one symbol and later more smaller symbols and modifiers can be engraved on the mask to make the mask work. That's the most important part of Selish magic, the symbols have to be based on the shape of the land the magic comes from. 

There is also the issue of distance. On Sel, the further away you are from your homeworld, the weaker the magic becomes. Some are more susceptible to this, like Elantrians, others are less like Dakhor Monks. To which category your system belongs to? And how is this weakening manifested in your magic? I think the most obvious way is that it's even harder to transform into animals that are less human-like and live further away from them, to the point that you could transform only into domesticated animals. TLM spoilers:

Spoiler

With some skillful use of some hacking and external investiture this can be of course overcome and your system can work in Cosmere. But it does require some hacking.

The last rule can be of course bypassed by messing identity - if a Shifter creates a mask with no identity, any Shifter can use it. Maybe a Shifter that has no identity can use another's mask, although for a much shorter period of time. Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

Just like metalminds works. A unkeyed metalmind can be used by any Feruchemist, but a identityless Feruchemist can't use keyed metalminds of other Feruchemists. You can slightly tweak that last part.

Anyway, it's not like manipulating identity would be easily possible for Shifters, at least not with the magic you've presented. So this just has implications for wider Comsere and worldhopping. 

Question for you. Do you want to incorporate modifiers that would actually change and "mutate" some characteristic of an animal, or you just want your Shifters to turn into realistic animals? Like turning into a wolf and nothing else? Do you allow yourself to turn into a wolf with echolocation if a Shifter is extremely skillful and can create a very complicated mask full of complicated symbols? That sounds like an extreme high tier ability with a lot of potential, but also is quite close to what Kandra can do. 

Overall I find this idea to be a very Selish magic system. It fits nicely, has some good rules and is definitely interesting - I would want to turn into a totally normal and innocent platypus, but I don't know if I could bear the weight of their blood on my hands and their skull on my face. That's a huge price to pay  

 

Edited September 17, 2024 by alder24

[Atlas333]

That's good feedback, thank you guys.

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

I would allow size/mass changes, at least within some categorical tiers.  Or else you'd really need to be able to scale larger creatures down to match human mass.  Otherwise the available forms will be extremely limited.  Realmically each transformation is tied to a very specific Form and Identity of the sacrificed form, so perhaps the Sacrificial ritual converts their mass to Investiture stored within the Mask itself, to be tapped for the temporary mass. It would mean that masks for larger forms are quantitatively more Invested, but otherwise Size/Mass changes via investiture are pretty common in the cosmere, so it's not as problematic as harder science settings. 

I was a little worried that shapeshifting and manipulating mass would be too complicated but if that isn't the case then maybe it doesn't need that limitation. I think tying larger/smaller limitations to skill level as suggested above is a good compromise. I implemented the mammals-only rule for similar reasons but again skill level might be a more interesting obstacle than flat out saying it's impossible.

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

There is also the issue of distance. On Sel, the further away you are from your homeworld, the weaker the magic becomes. Some are more susceptible to this, like Elantrians, others are less like Dakhor Monks. To which category your system belongs to? And how is this weakening manifested in your magic? I think the most obvious way is that it's even harder to transform into animals that are less human-like and live further away from them, to the point that you could transform only into domesticated animals.

This is one element I hadn't considered in my initial brainstorming. I'd imagine they'd be more similar to Dakhor monks due to the sacrifice during the process but still somewhat location-dependent. Your suggestion seems reasonable enough. 

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

Question for you. Do you want to incorporate modifiers that would actually change and "mutate" some characteristic of an animal, or you just want your Shifters to turn into realistic animals? Like turning into a wolf and nothing else? Do you allow yourself to turn into a wolf with echolocation if a Shifter is extremely skillful and can create a very complicated mask full of complicated symbols? That sounds like an extreme high tier ability with a lot of potential, but also is quite close to what Kandra can do. 

I think this is well within the realm of possibility for this magic system but it feels more like an "era 2 mask" for lack of a better term (kind of like how we see other magic systems develop and grow more complex as time progresses). Similarly, I had the idea of a "partial transformation" that would allow the shifter to take on one attribute of an animal (say the eyes of an eagle) without undergoing a full transformation but I wanted to focus on the basics of the system first. But these are all things that I think should be possible as the magic system is studied and developed.

[Dalluminum he/him]

Love it!

This definitely has the feel of a Selish magic system, and the mechanics look good.

Some of my thoughts:

On 9/17/2024 at 8:46 AM, Atlas333 said:

Transformations are fairly short; I don't imagine longer than 10 minutes although frequent use can increase this limit.

I think this is a cool concept, and I like the idea of your "favorite" masks lasting a little longer. As has been mentioned with the whole mass thing, I think adding an element of skill to the duration would fit Sel nicely. Pretty much every aspect of every system we've seen benefits from an increase in skill. Maybe there are symbols that amplify the duration, similar to how Aon Daa can act as an amplifier in AonDor, or maybe more precision in the ritual could result in a higher quality mask.

Another thought I had was "what about savantism?" We don't really have examples of savantism on Sel, so I don't know if Brandon has anything specific in mind for how that would work. Minor Elantris spoiler:

Spoiler

Raoden might be an example of a savant-in-progress. When he finds the chasm line, the book mentions he feels something where the line should go. Again: I have no idea how canon that is, but savantism may result in a more intuitive understanding of the symbols necessary for the magic system.

For your system, I suggest something similar to what we've seen in Soulcasting savants. Maybe you become strongly Connected to a specific mask, and can last much longer than usual. Maybe that Connection results in thinking like that animal whether or not you are wearing the mask. Maybe the transformation even has a gradual, permanent effect on your body. There are a lot of ways it could go, especially with how little we have concerning Selish savants.

Once more, cool system! I've always loved the Selish magic systems, and this feels like a really good exploration of other systems that would be possible. Keep it up!

[Atlas333]

On 10/3/2024 at 10:23 AM, Dalluminum said:

For your system, I suggest something similar to what we've seen in Soulcasting savants. Maybe you become strongly Connected to a specific mask, and can last much longer than usual. Maybe that Connection results in thinking like that animal whether or not you are wearing the mask. Maybe the transformation even has a gradual, permanent effect on your body. There are a lot of ways it could go, especially with how little we have concerning Selish savants.

Savants are another area that I haven't developed as well as I would like too. I definitely think this is going in the right direction but I was thinking that a shifter savant would actually be permanently stuck in their beast form (whether this is permanent because of their spiritweb permanently changing or whether they just don't want to take off the mask to end the transformation I haven't decided). But side effects to their human form such as a more bestial appearance is a good suggestions too. 

[BigBadBagsworth He/him/his]

I love this! It’s really creative.
 

My big idea on this magic system: (note; I have a habit of spewing my ideas at anyone who cares to listen. I just think these would make fore a cooler magic system. Please don’t take it personally.)

Personally I don’t think there should be a lower limit on size. I think that excess mass should just be turned into investiture and investure the Shifter, keeping them at close to their normal strength and giving Shifting an ant-man like quality. As an example, if you became a squirrel, you wouldn’t have your normal strength but maybe something in-between, like a squirrel flaring pewter. The skull requirement and the mammal requirements would prevent you from going much smaller than the aforementioned squirrel.

[CrazyBookEnthusiast]

OK, so I love this system, I'm gonna go over some points that I think others have said and some of my own.

SO, I think the idea of the Mass thing being more so a skill issue than a hard limit is a great idea, I don't think it should be upto a nebulous connection or skill with the magic or whatever. To me, this system is really mechanised in the sense that it is all about that mask and carving it, afterwards, there isn't a lot one can do to change the magic in a mask without editting it. So I think for the runes/aons/glyphs, they should describe the animal that the mask is being bound to, so a tiger will have glyphs for Cat, Clawed, Big and Predator, idk but something like that. I also think that the size of the runes should matter but not for descriptor runes but for another set of runes which I propose, Augmentor Runes.
Augmentor Runes work like the other magic systems of Sel, as in they can be chained together and get incredibly complex but with Shifting, there really isn't a big benefit from going super complicated but making an Augmentor rune that is bigger makes it channel more Dor and makes that attribute greater. So a few examples of Augmentor Runes are Strong, Light, Tough, Fire, Light, etc. So each Augmentor Rune would be connected to one of the Descriptor Runes to augment that attribute. It it very dependent on Intent and picturing your outcome. When carving an Augmentor Rune, you need to picture what the Augmentation of Fire would do and so on. This allows the system to be more magical in a sense and allows for some scaling. Btw Augmentor Runes aren't beginner stuff or even intermediate stuff, they are for legit masters of Shifting.

ONTO the Mass Rule, as others have stated it is severely limiting so I propose a Realmatic Rune that lets you do a Mass to Investiture and back conversion but I also say that the Rune works the same as an Augmentor Rune meaning the bigger it is, the more Mass can be transferred so if you're trying to become like a hamster, it'll be a huge rune so you need the skill to carve everything else with the remaining space on the mask. It's the same rune for smaller creatures and bigger.

I love the sacrificial ritual thing, I think that in terms of realmatics, you are storing the Spiritweb of the creature in the mask and accessing it through the Connection between you and the mask that was forged during the Carving Process. Then there is flow of investiture with Intent which is just Invested Healing but the Mask makes it so that rather than filtering your Spiritweb to the physical, it filters the animal's spiritweb instead. I don't know how accurate this is but that's the vibe I got from it.

Also for the distance from place problem, I don't think it's an appreciable issue for Shifting, it isn't a very Investiture intensive system and the power issue of further from place of origin isn't as Intense with Shifting so you can go to the other side of the planet from your place and it will definitely lock you out of some of the more investiture intensive forms but you still have access to a lot of your beginner forms, basically distance makes the Realmatic and Augmentor Runes work less and less so the basics would work but you would be a Giant Hamster instead of a little guy.

For the mask itself, I think it must be carved by you and with the intent to be a Shifting Mask. I don't think this is a magic system that can be easily Unkeyed because it isn't an issue with Identity but rather Connection as the carving process forms a connection between the Mask and you.