Question about Substantiation

[listerfeend]

Abidi says
 

Quote

"You have learned substantiation? I thought your kind had forbidden that skill. Odium will need to know."

I'm curious why this ability would have been forbidden. I can see very obvious and numerous tactical applications for such a skill, so to forbid it would have to mean that there are some very bad consequences of it, but... I'm not sure what those could be.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

My thoughts on why it was banned with zero evidence:

 

1) The substantiations can become alive on their own - the complications of which are fairly obvious. 

2) Its extremely easy to frame someone

3) It can fragment the Radiants mind. For someone like Shallan who is already experiencing multiple personalities it might be easy as I could see this type of total dedication to a lie being very destructive for a 'normal' persons psyche

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Might be as simple as "it's way too dangerous left unchecked", like blocking Cohesion from splitting atoms the way microkinesis could. Shallan created an entire army of illusions with slight mass in Oathbringer—what if she went all the way? Now realize any Lightweaver could do this on the spot, given enough Light and possibly the Fourth Ideal. That would be utter chaos if even one went rogue, and the Lightweaver oaths have the least moral guardrails of any order (minus maybe Elsecallers).

[listerfeend]

2 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

1) The substantiations can become alive on their own - the complications of which are fairly obvious. 

That would take a STUPID amount of Investiture, wouldn't it? Not just to give it an actual Identity and everything like that, but also just the amount of Investiture required to keep the Illusion around? Like, when Shallan makes "copies" of herself, she has to tie it to a gem so that it will use the Stormlight to keep the illusion going, and I seem to recall there was a couple hours? or some smaller time frame like that, for those illusions.

 

2 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

2) Its extremely easy to frame someone

True, very true, though, forbidding a skill because it's easy to do something like that, especially in the Order about spying...that seems a little short sighted
 

 

5 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

3) It can fragment the Radiants mind. For someone like Shallan who is already experiencing multiple personalities it might be easy as I could see this type of total dedication to a lie being very destructive for a 'normal' persons psyche

Maybe... It seems to me, all of this would be harder for Shallan than it would be a different Lightweaver, since she is already struggling with what is real and who she is. Obviously not every Lightweaver is going to have the same tenuous grip on reality as Shallan, and wouldn't view Illusions of themselves as...actually themselves? I guess what I'm getting at is that it seems obvious to me that Shallan would be the one who would struggle with a fractured psyche due to this, but it's not very obvious to me that anyone else, like Vatha, or especially the Radiants of old, would have that same confusion about what is real and what is not....

2 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Might be as simple as "it's way too dangerous left unchecked", like blocking Cohesion from splitting atoms the way microkinesis could. Shallan created an entire army of illusions with slight mass in Oathbringer—what if she went all the way? Now realize any Lightweaver could do this on the spot, given enough Light and possibly the Fourth Ideal. That would be utter chaos if even one went rogue, and the Lightweaver oaths have the least moral guardrails of any order (minus maybe Elsecallers).

That also seems like a SUPER obvious fix to the entire issue of Desolations though? 5 Lightweavers with an army of illusions each, no humans have to die, doesn't matter that the Fused can respawn, since very few humans would actually be doing the fighting? I can see that a rogue Lightweaver using that technique would be very hard to deal with, that does make sense, but the potential benefits in war, especially if we can take this all the way like you're saying, it just doesn't make sense that it would be forbidden. Highly regulated, maybe... But this is like nukes IRL. Super duper dangerous if the wrong people get them, sure. We still have a whack ton of them though...

[CtrlAltDepressed]

7 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

That would take a STUPID amount of Investiture, wouldn't it? Not just to give it an actual Identity and everything like that, but also just the amount of Investiture required to keep the Illusion around? Like, when Shallan makes "copies" of herself, she has to tie it to a gem so that it will use the Stormlight to keep the illusion going, and I seem to recall there was a couple hours? or some smaller time frame like that, for those illusions.

 

A single breath can make a lifeless, so I don't know that it really takes all that much. Obviously will be harder with Stormlight, but I wouldn't expect it to take more than Shallan could carry in a few gems. 

 

7 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

I guess what I'm getting at is that it seems obvious to me that Shallan would be the one who would struggle with a fractured psyche due to this, but it's not very obvious to me that anyone else, like Vatha, or especially the Radiants of old, would have that same confusion about what is real and what is not....

Shallans complete dedication to a lie is what makes this easy for her (these are my assumptions). What I was getting at, is for someone like Vatha to be able to do this, would put them in an unhealthy state of mind. We already know that Shallan is not in a healthy state of mind. Thats where she started, she didnt have to get there for this to work. 

 

7 minutes ago, listerfeend said:

True, very true, though, forbidding a skill because it's easy to do something like that, especially in the Order about spying...that seems a little short sighted

Agreed. Its shortsighted for a lot of reasons (im sure they had a good reason). No one should have to work at the Tower ever again. Just a few Lightweavers with unlimited Towerlight should be able to whip up a few dozen workers no problem. 

Edited September 16, 2024 by CtrlAltDepressed

[listerfeend]

Just now, CtrlAltDepressed said:

A single breath can make a lifeless, so I don't know that it really takes all that much. Obviously will be harder with Stormlight, but I wouldn't expect it to take more than Shallan could carry in a few gems. 

A single breath also doesn't make a body, a spiritweb, an Identity, etc... So, these are the things that I'm thinking about when you say "come fully alive" as all of those are necessary to be considered "alive" in the Cosmere. We know that Lifeless are more "alive" than we might think, from WoB, but I don't think they'd be considered "fully alive" in the sense that you seem to be indicating. 

 

2 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Shallans complete dedication to a lie is what makes this easy for her (these are my assumptions). What I was getting at, is for someone like Vatha to be able to do this, would put them in an unhealthy state of mind. We already know that Shallan is not in a healthy state of mind. Thats where she started, she didnt have to get there for this to work. 

It's not obvious to me that there would have to be any kind of "unhealthy state of mind" intrinsic in creating an Illusion like this though. At the end of the day, this is Lightweaving and Soulcasting (probably) mixed together in a way to create a solid Illusion. I'm trying to separate out what we know about Shallan from what we know about the magic itself.

There doesn't seem to be a reason for substantiation to require a complete dedication to the lie, so to speak. Storms, substantiation, from the context, just means giving solid form to an Illusion, at least that was my take. It doesn't even need to be an Illusion of a person. A Lightweaver, using substantiation, should be able to make a wall out of thin air, or a sword, or literally anything they can imagine. 

Shallan has to dedicate herself to the lie, especially to create a Radiant substantiation, but that doesn't seem like it would be a requirement for someone with enough understanding of their Surgebinding to simply create the Illusion.
 

11 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Agreed. Its shortsighted for a lot of reasons (im sure they had a good reason). No one should have to work at the Tower ever again. Just a few Lightweavers with unlimited Towerlight should be able to whip up a few dozen workers no problem. 

That's what I'm struggling with. This seems SUPER DUPER powerful, so it would have to have some serious consequences for it to be "forbidden". And I'd like to know what those consequences are. Like Mikrokenisis being forbidden makes perfect sense to me. Don't cause nuclear explosions at will. Roger that. This doesn't seem "potentially world ending" in the same way to me.

[Through the Living Shadow he/him]

With the Soulcasting Jasnah uses, the effects are extremely powerful, but also extremely difficult.

With this, Shallan may say, hey, everyone is covered in solid investiture.

And then on on greater levels this could create an explosion due to the displacement of the air. How much acceleration do the air particles have? A heck of a lot, since one moment they’re there, and the other, they are, say, 20 feet away. They would be moving at a substantial fraction of c.

This has already been seen on some level with the density changes due to Soulcasting. When Jasnah soul cast a large boulder into smoke, the smoke expanded outwards.

This wouldn’t do anything much in shadesmar because the general populace doesn’t know much of physics near Roshar.

Edited September 16, 2024 by SpiritOfWrath
Typos

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 hours ago, listerfeend said:

no humans have to die, doesn't matter that the Fused can respawn, since very few humans would actually be doing the fighting?

And what happens to the singers when the humans realize they can attack them endlessly at no risk to themselves?

5 hours ago, listerfeend said:

but the potential benefits in war, especially if we can take this all the way like you're saying, it just doesn't make sense that it would be forbidden

The whole philosophy of Honor, Cultivation, and Radiance is that the easy path isn't always the path you should take.

5 hours ago, listerfeend said:

But this is like nukes

Which the Radiants were also prevented from doing.

[BinarySecond]

20 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Might be as simple as "it's way too dangerous left unchecked", like blocking Cohesion from splitting atoms the way microkinesis could. Shallan created an entire army of illusions with slight mass in Oathbringer—what if she went all the way? Now realize any Lightweaver could do this on the spot, given enough Light and possibly the Fourth Ideal. That would be utter chaos if even one went rogue, and the Lightweaver oaths have the least moral guardrails of any order (minus maybe Elsecallers).

The stormfront of any highstorm becomes an unstoppable army

[listerfeend]

22 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

And what happens to the singers when the humans realize they can attack them endlessly at no risk to themselves?

Eventually, the Desolations end, because the Fused have no hope of actually doing anything? The exact same thing that is happening now, except in reverse? There are a lot of different ways that could go, and Cultivation (at least, since Honor was stark raving mad at the time, and then dead later) doesn't seem to care all that much about an entire race of people being reduced to Identity-less slaves. There doesn't seem to be much concern or "what about the singers" going on here. 
 

 

22 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The whole philosophy of Honor, Cultivation, and Radiance is that the easy path isn't always the path you should take.

That's a mighty fine philosophy to hold when you aren't the one being murdered in droves. They also have several orders of philosophy that basically refute that. Like if a Windrunner had that ability, and didn't use it, I feel pretty confident in saying that that would probably, at some point, break their oaths to protect. My analogy about nukes wasn't a direct comparison. Yes, they are restricted from Microkinesis, because that is nuke like. This is not that, not even remotely close, unless there is some other Roshar Shattering consequence of...making solid light shows?

That's my entire point in this: for this to be forbidden, the consequences should be pretty far reaching and immediate. Not some "slippery slope" argumentation about how warfare would change. If Honor was, in fact, the one that forbade it.

Now, the fact that Abidi says that substantiation was forbidden, rather than something more concrete like "impossible" (which would be the case with Microkinesis, something that Honor very explicitly made impossible) indicates to me that this was a "forbidden curse" kind of situation, not a restriction on Surgebinding made by any of the Shards. More a "this is probably a bad thing to do, so we are going to agree not to do it" kind of thing.

And even then, I'm expecting there to be serious consequences to something that the Ancient Radiants forbade, though it was within their power and makes WAY too much sense to do. What could those be? That is my question. Why would anyone restrict themselves in such a way? It doesn't make any Storming sense. 

[Windrunner22]

Quote

"You have learned substantiation? I thought your kind had forbidden that skill. Odium will need to know."

This line from Abidi makes me think about another one we heard from Kelek earlier on. I've bolded what I see as the connection.

Quote

“Not simply sketching, child. Do you often draw upon Fortune? Glimpse someone’s possible selves, and pull one forth… touch, in some small way, what could have been. What might still be…”

“Two spren. Of course… you’ve bonded two. Strange things happen when the Nahel bond is imbricated. There were rules against it once, I believe. How long have you had them both?”

“And how often,” he asked, holding up the sheet, “do you glimpse into the Spiritual Realm, then manifest it in your art?”

-WaT Preview Chapter 5

Here in the first 10 or so preview chapters alone, we have two equally ancient beings both referencing rules and/or restrictions placed on Radiants. Both times through Shallan’s POV as well. It’s itching at me that this could be related, and even that Kelek and Abidi might be referencing the same rules/restrictions.

What if a double bond is actually required to perform Substantiation and the ability is not available to regular Lightweavers?

Shallan re-speaks a truth/re-swears an oath right before she uses the ability, and I think she was likely doing so with Testament. Perhaps the key factor that enabled her to use Substantiation is that she strengthened the ½ of her double bond that has been weakened/Deadeye’d.

I also think this could explain the different perspectives we get from Kelek vs Abidi. Herald Kelek was aligned with the Radiants and knows they banned the double bond (AND therefore Substantiation) due to Fortune/Spiritual Realm strangeness or shenanigans, while all Abidi knows as a Fused is that his enemies have forbidden themselves from using a powerful ability against him.

Which leads to my main point: What if the danger does not come from the ability of Substantination itself, or from using the ability? I propose that Substantiation is dangerous because it requires a double bond, and it’s the double bond specifically that is dangerous due to Fortune and Spiritual Realm strangeness/shenanigans. I’m not sure exactly what it would look like, but I imagine that meddling carelessly or mistakenly with the Spiritual Realm could lead to catastrophic negative consequences. I also think it would make sense that the Radiants don’t want every single Lightweaver glimpsing into the Spiritual Realm or experimenting with Fortune/Spiritual Realm powers. This seems a more likely reason for making a rule against Substantiation, not because it isn’t useful or the ability itself is too risky, but more so because of dangerous Spiritual Realm-y side effects of the double bond.

Edited September 17, 2024 by Windrunner22
misspelled substantiation

[Rorzikel]

Good thoughts, Windrunner.

We also don't know the limits of substantiation yet and what implications it may have, double bond or not. This is the first instance we've seen of it. In comparison, the first we saw of Honor's Truest Surge and all of its weirdness was just Szeth sticking objects together. It could be a risk for all kinds of reasons that don't relate to futuresight.

[listerfeend]

50 minutes ago, Rorzikel said:

This is the first instance we've seen of it.

I would definitely say that we've seen something of this already. Unless Substantiation is something different from what we saw Shallan do at the Battle of Thaylen Field, where here illusions were definitely making physical contact with enemies. 

 

1 hour ago, Windrunner22 said:

What if the danger does not come from the ability of Substantination itself, or from using the ability? I propose that Substantiation is dangerous because it requires a double bond, and it’s the double bond specifically that is dangerous due to Fortune and Spiritual Realm strangeness/shenanigans.

Very interesting take, and something I might could get behind, honestly. So far, this is the only theory about why substantiation would have been forbidden that makes sense, though I still feel like double bonding would have to have serious ramifications that haven't been explored yet. Shallan's mental state could definitely be part of the reason double bonds would be forbidden. I still think her alters are actually Fortune shenanigan connections to "real" versions of Shallan that would have gone through different life experiences. If that is true, and it's related to the double bond, that feels like there could be dire consequences down the line, though I can't really specify what those would be. Maybe there is a great risk of losing your grip on reality and just going haywire, or something along those lines... I'll have to think about this more 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

since Honor was stark raving mad at the time, and then dead later

Honor only went mad toward the end of the Radiants, two thousand years after last time Abidi was on Roshar.

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

That's a mighty fine philosophy to hold when you aren't the one being murdered in droves.

That is the whole premise of Honor and Radiants, that morals are demanding and costly to hold to but worth it for themselves anyway, yes.

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

if a Windrunner had that ability, and didn't use it, I feel pretty confident in saying that that would probably, at some point, break their oaths to protect.

Good thing Windrunners didn't have it, then.

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

for this to be forbidden, the consequences should be pretty far reaching and immediate. Not some "slippery slope" argumentation about how warfare would change.

Why are we assuming an immortal being capable of seeing the future would not consider the long game? (Not even long really, medium game perhaps is more like it.)

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

If Honor was, in fact, the one that forbade it.

Always possible he wasn't, yeah, but so far our only precedent is for these rules to be from Honor, so it's what I'm running with for now.

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

the fact that Abidi says that substantiation was forbidden, rather than something more concrete like "impossible" (which would be the case with Microkinesis, something that Honor very explicitly made impossible)

The Stormfather speaks of Honor's "laws" as something he had to "enforce".

1 hour ago, listerfeend said:

Why would anyone restrict themselves in such a way? It doesn't make any Storming sense. 

Again, this is the whole premise of the series.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying we know there definitely isn't anything deeper, just that I think we have a perfectly good simple explanation already and I don't think there's much reason as of yet to assume it has to be something more, personally.

Edited September 17, 2024 by LewsTherinTelescope