Savantism Mechanics

[Trusk'our he/him]

I've been wondering about the specific mechanics of how Savantism works, and I think I have an acceptable working theory. 

When a Savant uses their Investiture, they push it through their Spiritweb, which when taken to the extreme warps and shapes it.

I believe that this is because any stress will cause cracks to appear in the Spiritweb, be it physical injury, emotional pain, or Investiture induced exhaustion, this opens a little crack.

These widening cracks allow more Investiture to seep into the Spiritweb, allowing the Investiture to permeate it more, forming new Connections where they shouldn't be which in turns shapes the rest of the being (kind of like how changes made to a being via Hemalurgy are an emergent property of both the spikes' Spiritweb and the person's Spiritweb and can't just be taken with another spike- which also is probably why Savantism can't be automatically transferred via Hemalurgy).

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/161-words-of-radiance-washington-dc-signing/#e6931

IronCaf

What other magic systems - because it seems unique from what we have seen - what other magic systems have that same, kind of, "If you use it a lot it gets better?"

Brandon Sanderson

So, imagine this way-- You're making a metaphor-- It is a little bit more like wedging open cracks in the soul by letting the flow come through, and the investiture comes in. 

IronCaf

So it seems that in Allomancy, it seems to maybe enhance those cracks--

Brandon Sanderson

It can open the cracks more.

IronCaf

Are there other magic systems like that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

IronCaf

Will we see those anytime soon?

Brandon Sanderson

Maybe. Anytime soon? Let me RAFO that for you.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/36-arcanum-unbounded-chicago-signing/#e1563

Argent

Have we seen the resonances of either Wax or Wayne?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, Wax is really good at sculpting bullets and things away from him.

Argent

The bubble.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah and things like this. This is playing with the fact that he is-- Let's just say that the abilities make this happen, and I’ll let you theorize on why, but it's just an enhancement to what he can do.

Argent

I might be wrong, but I thought you said it was because he was becoming a steel savant.

Brandon Sanderson

A savant, yeah, definitely, but this is what this is coming from.

Argent

But being a savant has to do with being really good with one power--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

--and resonances--

Brandon Sanderson

Being a savant has to do with using Investiture a lot, and it's starting to permeate your soul. Like we've ta--

Argent

So he's more a savant with both of--

Brandon Sanderson

He's used them a lot, and they are changing his soul, and so the powers are morphing and changing. Just in slight, little ways. You're not gonna see a whole bunch. But you can imagine these two separate powers are kind of becoming one to him.

Argent

Yeah I can see that. And Wayne?

Brandon Sanderson

So Wayne's is not as obvious. I'll go ahead and RAFO that right now.

I believe that a part of this extra cracking of the Spiritweb can be compared to the Hemalurgic Flaw (and might even mean an advanced Savant could be manipulated or controlled as a Hemalurgic construct could, or at least make it easier), allowing greater transparency in the Intent of the magic user with the power.

In other words, an Allomancer can communicate their Intent to a Hemalurgic construct by more deeply penetrating their Spiritweb with Investiture. Similarly, Savantism may allow the Savant to naturally pick up on the Intent of their Investiture as well as being able to skew it more as they wish (like how a Slider Savant can shape their bubble more, or a Coinshot hovering on an anchor).

Thoughts and criticisms?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

Interesting theory, but I don't think it's quite on the right path.

Savantism has been compared to a Spren Bond that is more dangerous, less controlled. Spren fill in the cracks in the soul caused by trauma. Savantism also fills in the cracks but does so in a way that warps the soul, reshaping it to be better at channeling the Investiture even if it comes at the cost of damaging the Physical or Cognitive Aspects of the user.

Think of it like the Investiture treating your soul like a new shoe, it's a bit tight at first but eventually it gets comfier. Except it doesn't get comfier for you, just the non-sapient Investiture that can't be aware of the damage it's doing to you.

[Treamayne]

Nice theory, Please note:

Wax was not a Savant:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision.

Argent

Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around.

Brandon Sanderson

Evgeni,

So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.)

And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore.

So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.)

Feel free to share this.

Argent

Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance."

The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books.

Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon.
Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016)

This was "confirmed" in BoM When he met another, non-Crasher, that had also learned to use a "Steel bubble" like his (seen in the train fight) - that technique was downgraded when brandon realized making the bubble did not require F-Iron and was therefore neither a resonance nor savant extrapolation, just an advanced use of A-Steel, similar to Kelsier's and Zane's abilities that Vin was not experienced enough to use in Era 1 (see below). However, overuse of the bubble could still have led to Savanthood.

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Marasi is an Allomancer

One of my big goals in these post-epic Mistborn books is to give a chance for more limited-power people (Mistings and their Feruchemical cousins, Ferrings) a chance to shine. In the previous trilogy, the focus really was on the Mistborn. Vin and Kelsier fit the epic fantasy mindset I wanted, powerful in an epic sort of way, broadly capable with abilities in a lot of areas.

For these books, I wanted to show people who had one or two powers, instead of sixteen, and show how specialization can achieve some incredible results. Because of that, I intentionally held back in the first trilogy in letting Vin do a few things. (Note how much better Zane was with minute steelpushes and ironpulls than she was.) Vin was incredibly skilled, but because she had so many powers to work with, she didn't home in as much on any one of them. Things like Wax's steel bubble are tricks I wanted to save for people like Wax. (He's what we’d call in the Mistborn world a steel savant, so capable with his metal—and having burned it so long, for so many years—that he's got an instinctive ability with it that lets him be very precise.)

And so we come to Marasi, who has the power opposite—but paired with—Wayne's ability. Both she and Wayne have powers I wanted to delve into. Indeed, I kind of promised that the last metals would get highlighted in these newer books. Matching that, I've given Miles the same power the Lord Ruler used to heal himself from so many incredible wounds. I wanted to explore more of what this skill was capable of when not overshadowed by so many other powers and abilities.

The Alloy of Law Annotations (Nov. 30, 2015)

Quote

Questioner

How precise can iron and steel Allomancy be? For example, could a Mistborn unscrew a light bulb just by Pushing and Pulling on the edges?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You see Kelsier do something like this when he spins metal poles and things like that. What you're asking for is an order of magnitude more difficult, but it is within the realm of possibility. I want to be careful not to get to Magneto-ish with it, but the more you... yeah. It is possible to do things like they just said.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

 

3 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Hemalurgic Flaw (and might even mean an advanced Savant could be manipulated or controlled as a Hemalurgic construct could, or at least make it easier),

Note that part of the reason why the Hemalurgic Flaw is more pronounced in a Construct over a simple person with Cognitive Cracks (like Vin's Mother, or Midge) is because the Spike, while inserted, is Piercing all three realms allowing the control method to more freely affect both the CR and SR aspect of the individual. A savant would not have tht conduit - so while cracks might make it slightly easier to "communicate", it is unlikely they could be controlled like the Spiked. 

[Quantus he/him]

I tend to consider Hostile Soulcasting as an example of forced, lethal Savantism.  Investiture is provided to the Spiritweb that can drive Change. Perhaps it's aimed or perhaps it just leaks on it's way through to other effects (like waste heat, etc in electronics), and it Infuses the Spiritweb.  A "pure" investiture without any other specific Intent might act like f-Gold and restore to the platonic ideal, or just generically augment the body's functions the way Heighenings or ambient Stormlight might (generically more resistant to disease, etc).  But if the Investiture has other Intents, other Purposes tuned into the Investiture, it might start trying to "Heal+MakeStone" instead of just Heal, or just Make Stone or PushAway, etc. like a cognitive contamination.  That in turn moves the definitions of the Spiritweb just a tiny bit, relative to the tiny amount of Investiture that is being leaked/lost. 

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Wax was not a Savant:

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

Warning, Evgeni. I'm really considering doing a backpedal on savants. The more i think about them, the less I'm not liking how my current course has them being treated in upcoming books. I think it deviates too far from my original vision.

Argent

Hey, I wouldn't normally contact you directly like this, but given that you thought it important enough to reach out and let me know you might change how savants work, I figured you probably wouldn't be too upset by this message. I replied to your Facebook comment, asking if you could clarify a little bit which aspects of savantism you are thinking of keeping and/or cutting. I don't need an essay on the topic (though you know I'd love one!), just some details on what we can consider canon for theories, and what we should be careful around.

Brandon Sanderson

Evgeni,

So here's the problem. The more I dig into savants in the later outlines, the more I feel that I'm in a dangerous area--in that I'm disobeying their original intention. (Which is that using the power so much that it permeates your soul can be dangerous, a kind of uncontrolled version of a spren bond.)

And so, I don't want to let myself just start making people savants right and left. It needs to be a specific thing. Wax is the troubling one, as I have him burning so much steel that he's well on his way, but isn't showing any side effects. If I'm going to give him savant-like abilities, he needs savant-like consequences.

That's the danger, just falling back on savanthood to do some of the things I want, so often that it undermines the actual point and purpose of them in the cosmere lore.

So if I backpedal, it will be to contain this and point myself the right way, sharply curtailing my desire to make people savants without their savanthood being an intrinsic part of their story and conflict in life. (Like it was for Spook, and is for Soulcasting savants on Roshar.)

Feel free to share this.

Argent

Okay, so - if you do decide to go this route, I see the story implications (larger focus on consequences, less easy to get to the point where a character can be considered a savant). What I am not sure about is the potential for a mechanical change. Would a backpedal on your side cause a conflict with information you've shared with us, in or out of your books? Are you saying that it's possible that Wax won't be considered a savant (if you can't squeeze a good ramifications plot for him that doesn't contradict the apparent lack of consequences so far, for example)?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't decided on anything yet. It's mostly consequences for the future--just a kind of, "be aware I'm not 100% pleased with how Wax turned out, re: savanthood and Allomantic resonance."

The idea of resonance is that two powers, combined, meld kind of into one single power. This is a manifestation of the way Shards combine. Wax was intended as a savant of the two melded powers. But without consequences in his plot, I'm not confident that I'll continue in the same vein for future books.

Footnote: The first message comes from Brandon reaching out to Argent (Evgeni) on Facebook with a follow-up regarding this entry. This rest is from a Reddit PM exchange between Argent and Brandon.
Miscellaneous 2016 (Dec. 15, 2016)

This was "confirmed" in BoM When he met another, non-Crasher, that had also learned to use a "Steel bubble" like his (seen in the train fight) - that technique was downgraded when brandon realized making the bubble did not require F-Iron and was therefore neither a resonance nor savant extrapolation, just an advanced use of A-Steel, similar to Kelsier's and Zane's abilities that Vin was not experienced enough to use in Era 1 (see below). However, overuse of the bubble could still have led to Savanthood.

Yup. 

I was using the WoB that suggested it for its roll in explaining my thoughts on Savantism, but since that quote it's been confirmed Wax isn't actually one himself. 

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Note that part of the reason why the Hemalurgic Flaw is more pronounced in a Construct over a simple person with Cognitive Cracks (like Vin's Mother, or Midge) is because the Spike, while inserted, is Piercing all three realms allowing the control method to more freely affect both the CR and SR aspect of the individual. A savant would not have tht conduit - so while cracks might make it slightly easier to "communicate", it is unlikely they could be controlled like the Spiked. 

Probably true.

I do wonder whether a Savant (especially an Allomantic or Compounding Savant) who started young and lived a while would eventually see bigger and bigger cracks, which would open them up more and more to outside influence. 

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

I tend to consider Hostile Soulcasting as an example of forced, lethal Savantism.  Investiture is provided to the Spiritweb that can drive Change. Perhaps it's aimed or perhaps it just leaks on it's way through to other effects (like waste heat, etc in electronics), and it Infuses the Spiritweb.  A "pure" investiture without any other specific Intent might act like f-Gold and restore to the platonic ideal, or just generically augment the body's functions the way Heighenings or ambient Stormlight might (generically more resistant to disease, etc).  But if the Investiture has other Intents, other Purposes tuned into the Investiture, it might start trying to "Heal+MakeStone" instead of just Heal, or just Make Stone or PushAway, etc. like a cognitive contamination.  That in turn moves the definitions of the Spiritweb just a tiny bit, relative to the tiny amount of Investiture that is being leaked/lost. 

Interesting! I like this take, and I think I agree with it as I understand it right now: because the Investiture you use has a certain Intent and overuse makes it leak into the rest of your Spiritweb, saturating it, it starts imposing its own Intent/ideal onto your Spiritweb. 

Adding to this concept, I wonder if you Compounded a blank Metalmind with no programmed purpose or "power" if it could lead to a Scadrian version of Heightenings. Not sure if it would require a constant influx of Kinetic Investiture to maintain its effects or if you could actually permanently add more Investiture to your Spiritweb over time, but either way it could prove interesting. 

Quote

Savantism has been compared to a Spren Bond that is more dangerous, less controlled. Spren fill in the cracks in the soul caused by trauma. Savantism also fills in the cracks but does so in a way that warps the soul, reshaping it to be better at channeling the Investiture even if it comes at the cost of damaging the Physical or Cognitive Aspects of the user.

Think of it like the Investiture treating your soul like a new shoe, it's a bit tight at first but eventually it gets comfier. Except it doesn't get comfier for you, just the non-sapient Investiture that can't be aware of the damage it's doing to you.

Hmm, seems like a good take @JustQuestin2004

Perhaps Savantism can be compared to the Nahel Bond in its advancement of Oaths, in that the Bond reinforces the Connection (and possibly Identity) between the Spren and Radiant, but is programmed into the system due to Cultivation's Intent and Spren themselves have sapience. 

The Investiture of a Metalborn power isn't sapient however, and it's more forced, so more damage/warping may be a consequence. 

This also fits with the fact that Savantism is confirmed to show up different in Radiant's due to their Bond, so perhaps this is what it meant: Oath progression is Savantism, as no extra Investiture is introduced, but the Connection and efficiency is improved, just as in Metalborn Savantism. 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/259-oathbringer-leeds-signing/#e8742

Questioner 1

Do all Soulcasters risk turning into the element or is it only those using the device?

Brandon Sanderson

All Soulcasters have an affinity but the ones using the device are locked down much more than the Soulcasters who are Knights Radiant.

Questioner 1

So they are protected from being turned into--

Brandon Sanderson

Oh no they-- I wouldn't say protected... *clarification* Protected is the wrong term but that event, the savanthood and how it affects them and things like that is much less pronounced if you are a [Knight].

Questioner 1

Or is that counteracted by the healing as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Healing doesn't have to do with it because-- in cosmere terms there's nothing wrong with your body, your spirit is actually drifting, and so it's not hurting you physically by what's happening with the magics. So it's not the healing but if you have an active bond with a spren it takes a little different path. Let's just say, in simple terms--

Questioner 1

You are not losing body parts to smoke.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, you are not losing body parts to smoke. 

Questioner 1

What timeframe does it happen for the normal Soulcasters then?

Brandon Sanderson

For normal Soulcasters? It takes-- I mean, you've seen it happening in the books. We are talking [about] a process of years even decades, depending on the person. It happens to some--

Questioner 2

Depending on how often they Soulcast?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on how often they Soulcast, and it depends on the person. 

 

Edited September 4 by Trusk'our