Does Cosmere Healing Work on Foreign Objects?

[Steel Speedster ♂]

Basically, what I'm wondering is, can an object that was not originally a part of your body become part of your spiritual ideal so that healing via Stormlight or F-gold will heal it back?

If you have any sort of prosthetic, for example, can you heal it if it gets damaged? (Obviously, if you can heal, then you might be able to heal so that you don't need the prosthetic, but we've seen plenty of cases where healing doesn't work, because the person has accepted the injury.)

More Cosmere related, could a Hemalurgist use healing to repair damage to their spikes? If this is possible, then it opens up all sorts of ridiculous things you could do. It might let you duplicate spikes, simply by taking them out and healing them back. A Feruchemist could heal back implanted metalminds.

Let's take this a step further. Could a Feruchemist heal back the Feruchemical charge of a metalmind? Obviously, the amount of Investiture required to do this would cancel out any gain in Investiture, but let's look at this example. Say you were a full Feruchemist and (to make this a bit easier) an Augur too, so you can Compound health, but no other attribute. Let's say you have a full pewtermind implanted in your body, and it's been there so long that the pewtermind, as well as its charge are part of your spiritual ideal. You use up the strength in the pewtermind, then tap health. The charge heals back, and essentially, you've just converted Investiture in a goldmind into Investiture in a pewtermind. Now you can use this to get unlimited strength. Transfer the strength directly into a new pewtermind outside of your body, then heal back the charge in your implanted metalmind. Repeat this as much as you need, and now you have a bunch of extra pewterminds full of strength. Essentially, you've Compounded strength using gold Compounding. Obviously, this isn't as efficient as normal pewter Compounding, since you need to burn gold, but in theory you could Compound any attribute you wanted as long as you had the appropriate Feruchemical charge as part of your spiritual ideal of yourself.

This might seem completely overpowered, and in a way, it is. However, I would have to assume that something like this would not be a common occurrence, since, obviously, we haven't seen anyone do anything like this yet. Either it's not possible to incorporate foreign materials into your spiritual ideal, or it's so difficult than most people aren't going to have it happen. It seems most believable that it might happen with artificial body parts or hemalurgic spikes. A person is much more likely to think about these (which, I think, although I could be misremembering, is relevant to your spiritual ideal) than, for example, a piece of metal lodged inside them that they can't see.

Do we have any information on whether any of this is possible?

[Grubfriend He/Him]

21 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Basically, what I'm wondering is, can an object that was not originally a part of your body become part of your spiritual ideal so that healing via Stormlight or F-gold will heal it back?

If you have any sort of prosthetic, for example, can you heal it if it gets damaged? (Obviously, if you can heal, then you might be able to heal so that you don't need the prosthetic, but we've seen plenty of cases where healing doesn't work, because the person has accepted the injury.)

More Cosmere related, could a Hemalurgist use healing to repair damage to their spikes? If this is possible, then it opens up all sorts of ridiculous things you could do. It might let you duplicate spikes, simply by taking them out and healing them back. A Feruchemist could heal back implanted metalminds.

Let's take this a step further. Could a Feruchemist heal back the Feruchemical charge of a metalmind? Obviously, the amount of Investiture required to do this would cancel out any gain in Investiture, but let's look at this example. Say you were a full Feruchemist and (to make this a bit easier) an Augur too, so you can Compound health, but no other attribute. Let's say you have a full pewtermind implanted in your body, and it's been there so long that the pewtermind, as well as its charge are part of your spiritual ideal. You use up the strength in the pewtermind, then tap health. The charge heals back, and essentially, you've just converted Investiture in a goldmind into Investiture in a pewtermind. Now you can use this to get unlimited strength. Transfer the strength directly into a new pewtermind outside of your body, then heal back the charge in your implanted metalmind. Repeat this as much as you need, and now you have a bunch of extra pewterminds full of strength. Essentially, you've Compounded strength using gold Compounding. Obviously, this isn't as efficient as normal pewter Compounding, since you need to burn gold, but in theory you could Compound any attribute you wanted as long as you had the appropriate Feruchemical charge as part of your spiritual ideal of yourself.

This might seem completely overpowered, and in a way, it is. However, I would have to assume that something like this would not be a common occurrence, since, obviously, we haven't seen anyone do anything like this yet. Either it's not possible to incorporate foreign materials into your spiritual ideal, or it's so difficult than most people aren't going to have it happen. It seems most believable that it might happen with artificial body parts or hemalurgic spikes. A person is much more likely to think about these (which, I think, although I could be misremembering, is relevant to your spiritual ideal) than, for example, a piece of metal lodged inside them that they can't see.

Do we have any information on whether any of this is possible?

I think this could work

WoB

Spoiler

Questioner (paraphrased)

How does compounding work in Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I can explain this better in person because I know things that the characters in the book don’t. So, they haven’t worked a lot of this out. All the magic systems in my work are linked because the books all take place in the same universe. In Elantris, magic works by drawing symbols in the air. What actually happens is that when they draw a symbol, energy passes through it from another place (which is my get-out for the laws of thermodynamics) and the effect of that energy is moderated by the symbol. In one case it may become light, in another it may become fire. In Mistborn, the metals have a similar effect. The magic is not coming from the metal (even if some characters think it is). It is being drawn from the same place and moderated by the metal.

In the case of Feruchemy, no energy is being drawn from this other place. So, you spend a week sick and store up the ability to heal. It’s a balanced system, basically obeying the laws of thermodynamics. So, while it’s not real, it’s still rational.

In compounding, when you have the power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy, you draw power from the other place through the metal and it recognizes the power that is already stored—"Oh, this is healing, I know how to do that”—and so you get the power of Feruchemy but boosted by energy from the other place. This is how the Lord Ruler achieved immortality.

You are converting one power to another, which aligns with how Feruchemy works in my opinion. As long as you have had the metalminds for long enough you might be able to do this.

[alder24]

18 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Basically, what I'm wondering is, can an object that was not originally a part of your body become part of your spiritual ideal so that healing via Stormlight or F-gold will heal it back?

If you have any sort of prosthetic, for example, can you heal it if it gets damaged? (Obviously, if you can heal, then you might be able to heal so that you don't need the prosthetic, but we've seen plenty of cases where healing doesn't work, because the person has accepted the injury.)

More Cosmere related, could a Hemalurgist use healing to repair damage to their spikes? If this is possible, then it opens up all sorts of ridiculous things you could do. It might let you duplicate spikes, simply by taking them out and healing them back. A Feruchemist could heal back implanted metalminds.

I highly doubt it because it's not flesh. No matter what your perception is, you can't make something so far away from the human ideal be included in it. Just like you can't heal yourself to have wings without first messing with your spirit web - the spiritual human ideal doesn't include wings and no perception can change it. A spike would be even more impossible because it's invested, thus it resists investiture and damaging it would probably destroy some of its charge, which would be probably impossible to heal back (because it's not your body, not your spirit web, it's Hemalurgy now).

Spoiler

Krios (paraphrased)

If you have a form of manipulating your Identity and a form of healing, are you able to shapeshift or even evolve your body like growing wings?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You'd have to do some real work on your Spiritweb to make that work. It'd take more work than you're implying, but the [singers] for instance are doing this. It'll take a little more work, it's not just blanking your Identity. Hemalurgy would make it very easy, but also very evil. But what you want to achieve is possible.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

24 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Let's take this a step further. Could a Feruchemist heal back the Feruchemical charge of a metalmind?

No. It's not a body, it's not a part of a body, it's just static investiture - healing doesn't work on that. 

[Quantus he/him]

7 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I highly doubt it because it's not flesh. No matter what your perception is, you can't make something so far away from the human ideal be included in it. Just like you can't heal yourself to have wings without first messing with your spirit web - the spiritual human ideal doesn't include wings and no perception can change it. A spike would be even more impossible because it's invested, thus it resists investiture and damaging it would probably destroy some of its charge, which would be probably impossible to heal back (because it's not your body, not your spirit web, it's Hemalurgy now).

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Krios (paraphrased)

If you have a form of manipulating your Identity and a form of healing, are you able to shapeshift or even evolve your body like growing wings?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

You'd have to do some real work on your Spiritweb to make that work. It'd take more work than you're implying, but the [singers] for instance are doing this. It'll take a little more work, it's not just blanking your Identity. Hemalurgy would make it very easy, but also very evil. But what you want to achieve is possible.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

No. It's not a body, it's not a part of a body, it's just static investiture - healing doesn't work on that. 

At least, Outside specific Magic Effects.  Ishar was able to convince the bodies of some radiant that the Ground was Part of them for Stormlight purposes, so I think a Bondsmith could Bond a Prosthetic limb to you similarly.  It may or may not animate or anything similarly useful, and it may or may not last without continuous Storm/Towerlight supplies, but if it were Bonded enough for the stormlight to flow into it I think it might be able to gain enough Platonic Ideal to be affected by the Healing. Way easier with a pre-existing but amputated limb, though, so I dont think you could add extra limbs or wings or anything the way awakeners can with cloth.  

 

 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

2 hours ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

If you have any sort of prosthetic, for example, can you heal it if it gets damaged? (Obviously, if you can heal, then you might be able to heal so that you don't need the prosthetic, but we've seen plenty of cases where healing doesn't work, because the person has accepted the injury.)

It's been established that the only reason healing doesn't work for some people is their amount of acceptance of whatever injury. I would think that if this could work, then the person capable of that acceptance/self visualization would also be able to heal back to a full biological state?

Either way, your question brings up an interesting point as to the limit(s) of "healing." King Ral-Na always knew himself to be a man, and his body's primary and secondary sex characteristics changes immediately upon his becoming a radiant, which makes sense, but that was a fairly significant physical change, demonstrating that large biological change is possible through healing.

So, what are the limits of change based on self perseption? Are their any? And given enough time and practice, could someone use such an ability to become a functional shapeshifter or sorts? I would assume Hoid can already do this if he really wanted to, but he's his own deal.

Edited August 30, 2024 by JohnnyKaizen

[Duxredux he/him]

At the very least, I think we can say that groups in the Cosmere are examining this line of thinking. VenDell did ask Allik for one of his masks as the Kandra were studying the extent that those masks are considered part of their Identity. Some Hunters even have their masks growing into their faces. I expect we'll have this answered at some point.

That said, it's worth noting that Cognitive Shadows often view themselves as clothed even though the "clothing" is really part of their substance as seen with Kelsier. It's not just Kelsier, all the deceased we see pop into Scadrial's CR have the clothing they wore in life, so I expect this aspect to be relatively universally applicable, particularly as we see what is possible in YatNP. Despite clothing being part of this visual instinctive image, we haven't seen clothing healed by the various Invested Arts.

As it is, I think the amount of brain twisting necessary to truly view yourself as another person and not just as a persona is waaaay harder than is posited. Both Wayne and Shallan have healing abilities, are incredible at disguising themselves as other people, and for large chunks of their lives have wanted to be someone other than themselves (at least to not be themselves) up to and including Shallan editing her own memory. As far as I can tell, they have never modified their body into another person's despite having the power, mimicry ability, and motive to do so. No idea how the gender change works in this context, maybe in the Cosmere gender is part of the Spiritual Ideal and the born characteristics don't always match (this is me saying that I don't think in-world Ral-Na was twisting their own mind to get the desired change - see also Yumi reshaping Painter's body). Perception might inhibit Spiritual-based healing without allowing full steps away from that ideal, like Kaladin's scars persisting.

What about Returned and their offspring? I'm not sure, it might be that Brandon handed us the exception/outlier at the start, just like how Returned are the oddball of the Cognitive Shadows for how easily they can leave their native system. 

Last note - it is worth noting that once Bridge Four gained access to the Surges, their Bridge Four tattoos remained, even though Kaladin's were healed away bringing his brand back to the forefront. The tattoo also transferred to Rlain's forehead plate when he changed from Dullform to Warform. Again, was this tattoo added to the Ideal, or is it simply excluded from being purged when healed? Are they unable to get tattoos now, or would they have to avoid healing for a few months?

Edited August 30, 2024 by Duxredux