Are Stormlight Infused Objects Resistant to Allomancy?

[Steel Speedster ♂]

When a Surgebinder uses the Surge of Adhesion or the Surge of Abrasion on an object, would that prevent a Coinshot or Lurcher from affecting it via Allomancy? Or more generally, is such an object sufficiently Invested to resist other Investiture? More relevantly to Roshar, could it block or at least resist a Shardblade?

My thought in answer to all these questions is no. We don't have much information in this regard, but whenever a Radiant uses one of these Surges, it never seems to consume very much of their Stormlight. Additionally, I would imagine that if you could stop a Shardblade this way, someone would have figured it out and applied this technique already.

As far as Allomancy goes, while Invested objects are harder to Push and Pull, we know that you can affect metalminds (except maybe if they're completely full) and hemalurgic spikes (if they're outside the body.) I think that most likely Stormlight infused objects would not be as Invested as your average metalmind. If you can Push/Pull on them, it opens up some cool techniques you could use if you somehow had access to A-iron or A-steel and the Surge of Adhesion or Abrasion. You could stick an object down to act as an anchor. You could stick an object to an opponent so that you could Push/Pull on them. Slicking a heavy object should make it a bit easier to move.

Anyway, that's my conclusion. I'd be interested to here if anyone else has other thoughts.

[alder24]

15 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

When a Surgebinder uses the Surge of Adhesion or the Surge of Abrasion on an object, would that prevent a Coinshot or Lurcher from affecting it via Allomancy? Or more generally, is such an object sufficiently Invested to resist other Investiture?

Yes, it's invested. If a metalmind, which holds relatively little investiture, can resist steelpushing then an object with an active Stormlight in it will do that as well. It's not impossible to push on metalminds (it was happening in Era 2), so a skilfull Coinshot might be able to push an object infused with Stormlight, if it doesn't hold a lot of it. 

16 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

More relevantly to Roshar, could it block or at least resist a Shardblade?

Probably not. Not enough investiture. 

Metallic Arts in general deal with little investiture compared to Surgebinding. A sphere of Stormlight should be worth more than a vial full of metal flakes, but that's nowhere near the levels of a Shardblade. 

Spoiler

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture.

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

DragonCon 2012 (Sept. 4, 2012)

 

Spoiler

tskyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has a lot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of Investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their Spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much Investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

[Trusk'our he/him]

24 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

When a Surgebinder uses the Surge of Adhesion or the Surge of Abrasion on an object, would that prevent a Coinshot or Lurcher from affecting it via Allomancy? Or more generally, is such an object sufficiently Invested to resist other Investiture? More relevantly to Roshar, could it block or at least resist a Shardblade?

My thought in answer to all these questions is no. We don't have much information in this regard, but whenever a Radiant uses one of these Surges, it never seems to consume very much of their Stormlight. Additionally, I would imagine that if you could stop a Shardblade this way, someone would have figured it out and applied this technique already.

As far as Allomancy goes, while Invested objects are harder to Push and Pull, we know that you can affect metalminds (except maybe if they're completely full) and hemalurgic spikes (if they're outside the body.) I think that most likely Stormlight infused objects would not be as Invested as your average metalmind. If you can Push/Pull on them, it opens up some cool techniques you could use if you somehow had access to A-iron or A-steel and the Surge of Adhesion or Abrasion. You could stick an object down to act as an anchor. You could stick an object to an opponent so that you could Push/Pull on them. Slicking a heavy object should make it a bit easier to move.

Anyway, that's my conclusion. I'd be interested to here if anyone else has other thoughts.

A Stormlight infused object should resist Pushing and Pulled Allomantically, as it's Invested. 

They should resist Shardweapons too, but probably not enough to be practical, especially since those doing the Investing either have to expend a ton of Stormlight or already have a Shardweapon of their own. 

As for Stormlight vs Metalmind Investiture amounts, Surgebinding is generally considered a "high power" Art while the Metallic Arts are more of a lower level in terms of raw power: 

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/152-dragoncon-2012/#e2801

Trae Cooper (paraphrased)

Why are Invested objects like metalminds and Hemalurgic spikes able to be Pushed and Pulled on, but Shardblades and Shardplate, which are also invested, are not susceptible to Pushing and Pulling?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There were a few concepts that he outlined in answering this question.

1.) The ability to Push/Pull an Invested object is predicated to the amount/power of the Investiture.

2.) Further, Invested objects also gain resistance to pulling/pushing based on proximity to soul possibly via the soul. An example given is that a Hemalurgic spike touches the blood of the person, and from there is now part of both the Spiritual Realm and the Physical Realm. This provides what Brandon termed a kind of "soul interference," based on its proximity to the soul.

This further explains why Vin required more than normal power to Push/Pull the metalminds from the Lord Ruler, because of their proximity to his soul, via the Spiritual Realm.

3.) The amount of Investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Sel and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that Hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of Investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades.

Brandon said that theoretically you can Push/Pull Shardblades and Shardplates but you would need to wield an incredible amount of power. One example he gave that could so such as a thing is that if you were a Mistborn wielding the full power of the Well of Ascension, you could Push/Pull Shardblades/Plate.

I also find it worth noting that the enormous Shardblades and Shardplate borne by Radiants are comprised entirely of pure, solidified Investiture. 

As such, Atium and Lerasium are the most comparable Invested objects you'd find on Scadrial. The difference in Investiture is insane, at least when comparing a Spren's composition to a Mistborn/Full Feruchemist's (though I'd argue a Radiant can't actually use all of their Spren's Investiture and really only utilizes a comparatively small proportion, only that which is necessary to hot wire their Spiritweb to the powers, but I digress).

Now, this doesn't actually account for how much Kinetic Investiture is weilded by either when burning metals, tapping, or breathing Stormlight, but it does show that Surgebinding has a natural advantage over the Metallic Arts when it comes to the raw Investiture of their sources (though I suppose you could debate how much of their Spren's Investiture actually makes it into the Radiant's Spiritweb for use).

Edited August 30, 2024 by Trusk'our
I've been ninja'd!

[Steel Speedster ♂]

4 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Yes, it's invested. If a metalmind, which holds relatively little investiture, can resist steelpushing then an object with an active Stormlight in it will do that as well. It's not impossible to push on metalminds (it was happening in Era 2), so a skilfull Coinshot might be able to push an object infused with Stormlight, if it doesn't hold a lot of it. 

I suppose another thing to consider is that an object infused with Stormlight runs out over time, so the amount of Investiture in it is extremely variable. The Radiant can choose how much Investiture to put in initially, depending on how long they want it to last, and it will gradually go down from there until it runs out. So, at the high end, there's no way an Allomancer could do anything, but there should be a window right before it runs out where it would work.

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Metallic Arts in general deal with little investiture compared to Surgebinding. A sphere of Stormlight should be worth more than a vial full of metal flakes, but that's nowhere near the levels of a Shardblade. 

Well, metal flakes aren't Invested at all, unless we're dealing with atium or something.

Going back to the fact that the Radiant can choose how much Investiture to put into an object, it should be theoretically possible to put enough Investiture into an objecto block a Shardblade, although you're average Radiant might not be holding that much at a time, and it might take more Stormlight then it would to simply heal the wound.

11 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

As such, Atium and Lerasium are the most comparable Invested objects you'd find on Scadrial. The difference in Investiture is insane, at least when comparing a Spren's composition to a Mistborn/Full Feruchemist's (though I'd argue a Radiant can't actually use all of their Spren's Investiture and really only utilizes a comparatively small proportion, only that which is necessary to hot wire their Spiritweb to the powers, but I digress)

That reminds me of another point to bring up, although admittedly, there's a lot of exceptional factors going on, so it isn't very useful.

The Lord Ruler's bracers were made of nearly pure godmetal. Obviously, they were smaller than a Shardblade, but I think it's the concentration of Investiture that matters. Additionally, they were piercing the skin. I think it's quite possible that that combination would have made them more difficult to Pull or Push on than a Shardblade. Obviously, Vin needed a boost from the mists to Pull them off. I always imagine that it wasn't a huge boost, but I suppose it probably was pretty big, since she overcame the Investiture resistance of nearly pure godmetal and soul proximity. (Like I said, not very useful to bring this up, considering the many unusual factors.)

17 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Now, this doesn't actually account for how much Investiture is weilded by either when burning metals, tapping, or breathing Stormlight, but it does show that Surgebinding has a natural advantage over the Metallic Arts when it comes to the raw Investiture of their sources (though I suppose you could debate how much of their Spren's Investiture actually makes it into the Radiant's Spiritweb for use).

Radiants seem to counter the Metallic Arts in almost every possible way. Their weapons and armor are immune to Pushing/Pulling, some of them can immunize other objects as well, Shardplate makes them immune to emotional Allomancy and probably at least as strong as a Pewterarm, and they even heal much easier than a Bloodmaker. There are only a few advantages Scadrial can bring to the table. Leeching could be pretty effective, and the temporal powers might give you a bit of an edge, since Surgebinding has nothing comparable. Some Feruchemical powers, like steel, zinc, and chromium could be effective as well. I suppose Scadrial probably has the advantage in numbers and technology, but that's about it.

[alder24]

12 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Well, metal flakes aren't Invested at all, unless we're dealing with atium or something.

Yes, metal isn't invested. I meant how much investiture burning metal flakes provide. An average Mistborn/Feruchemist has much, much less investiture available to them than an average Surgebinder with their Stormlight.

13 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

Going back to the fact that the Radiant can choose how much Investiture to put into an object, it should be theoretically possible to put enough Investiture into an objecto block a Shardblade, although you're average Radiant might not be holding that much at a time, and it might take more Stormlight then it would to simply heal the wound.

Considering that even using Dalinar's perpendicularity one cannot provide enough investiture to Soulcast something into a god metal, I think it would be really, really hard to infuse something with enough Stormlight to block a Shardblade. A spren in non-physical form cannot block it.

Spoiler

Haylo_Alex

You've said before that Soulcasting can't create atium or lerasium which makes sense since they're made of Investiture from other Shards. But could a Soulcaster, perhaps in the proximity of Dalinar's perpendicularity, provide enough Stormlight to Soulcast something into Honor's Godmetal (tanavastium)? What about Cultivation's metal, or an alloy of both, like Shardblade metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So, creating a God Metal is not something that's done easily in the Cosmere. HOWEVER, it is possible. You'd need a ton of Investiture, and being near Dalinar's perpendicularity is unlikely to be enough. I'd say Soulcasting, or something akin to it, has the means to do this if it could obtain the proper power charge.

Footnote: The questioner is mentioning this WoB.
General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 4, 2020)

[Duxredux he/him]

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Considering that even using Dalinar's perpendicularity one cannot provide enough investiture to Soulcast something into a god metal, I think it would be really, really hard to infuse something with enough Stormlight to block a Shardblade. A spren in non-physical form cannot block it.

Eh... I think you're equating two radically different processes. I think you could infuse an object with Investiture in a specific manner to resist a Shardblade and have it be a lower cost than convincing a stick that it really is part of a god along with all of the accompanying properties. Halfshards exist, right? We're not looking at Investing something to become a Godmetal, we're simply Investing something to actively resist destruction. I think just dumping Investiture in something and just hoping is a poor way to go, but I wouldn't be surprised if coating something in Adhesion will still impede a Shardblade if only for the stickiness. Yes, Investiture resists Investiture, but Invested Arts can still indirectly affect or combat a target.

Sometimes I think we forget that the very first Shardbearer we ever see in the Cosmere Is Gavilar getting trashed by Szeth, who was pulling stunts like Lashing furniture at him where it didn't matter if it was severed in half (so at least a single Basic Lashing is insufficient to block a Shardblade), he still got pummeled, or when he Lashed a platform out from under him and dropped him off a building. I don't know how Adhesion works exactly, but paint adheres to Plate, so that's something. 

[alder24]

3 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Eh... I think you're equating two radically different processes. I think you could infuse an object with Investiture in a specific manner to resist a Shardblade and have it be a lower cost than convincing a stick that it really is part of a god along with all of the accompanying properties. Halfshards exist, right? We're not looking at Investing something to become a Godmetal, we're simply Investing something to actively resist destruction. I think just dumping Investiture in something and just hoping is a poor way to go, but I wouldn't be surprised if coating something in Adhesion will still impede a Shardblade if only for the stickiness. Yes, Investiture resists Investiture, but Invested Arts can still indirectly affect or combat a target.

I wasn't precise enough. By blocking a Shardblade I meant fully resisting it, without ever breaking - which requires an equally invested object thus my comparison to god metals (I wasn't trying to say that you need to make a god metal, just something similarly invested). Yes. it's possible to invest something to just resist it for a few hits, it would still require quite a lot of Stormlight, but that's definitely possible. Probably the Alethkar's royal gem reserve Kaladin carries so often would provide enough Stormlight to do that. It's not very practical tbf.

Halfshards are fabrials - designed to do that with a spren powering them. That's a "radically different process" from just infusing something with investiture.

Good thinking with stickiness - cheese for the win. 

[Steel Speedster ♂]

12 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

I wouldn't be surprised if coating something in Adhesion will still impede a Shardblade if only for the stickiness.

3 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Good thinking with stickiness - cheese for the win. 

I would imagine that if a Shardblade is too Invested to be affected by Allomancy, that it would also be immune to Surges. Sure, Surges have more Investiture, but a Shardblade is one of the most Invested objects in the Cosmere. Maybe with enough Investiture you could create a sticky enough object to hold a Shardblade, but I think in general it's not going to work. Abrasion could be interesting though. It wouldn't be directly acting on the Shardblade, so the slipperiness might still work. It wouldn't be as useful, but you could probably use it to protect yourself from glancing blows.

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

52 minutes ago, Speeding Steelrunner said:

I would imagine that if a Shardblade is too Invested to be affected by Allomancy, that it would also be immune to Surges. Sure, Surges have more Investiture, but a Shardblade is one of the most Invested objects in the Cosmere. Maybe with enough Investiture you could create a sticky enough object to hold a Shardblade, but I think in general it's not going to work. Abrasion could be interesting though. It wouldn't be directly acting on the Shardblade, so the slipperiness might still work. It wouldn't be as useful, but you could probably use it to protect yourself from glancing blows.

That would be true if applied to non-living objects, like conventional armor. I'm still not convinced that shardblades are "cutting" based on a physical principle, even with non-living objects..but it would be a fun experiment to try on a willing surgebinding volunteer