What did Ruin mean by this?

[AleStaar he/him]

There’s a scene in Secret History where Ruin reveals to Kelsier some of his plans. Like how he manipulated many humans into spreading info on the Eleventh Metal. And among those plans, Ruin reveals he knew Vin since the day of her birth. This makes sense because he created Vin, and definitely noticed Preservation doing weird things with Vin’s soul. But then Ruin said he was preparing Vin “for even longer” than her birth.

Does this imply Ruin and Preservation were arranging the birth of a Mistborn they could use as the linchpin of their plans? Were they nudging Tevidian and/or Vin’s mother into breeding a particularly talented Mistborn that could manifest the personality traits they desired?

The quote in question: “Leave her alone? She’s mine, Kelsier. Just as you are. I’ve known that child since the day of her birth, and have been preparing her for even longer.”
 

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

An Epigraph from HoA talks on this.

The Hero of Ages Chapter 74 Epigraph

Spoiler

She once asked Ruin why he had chosen her. The primary answer is simple. It had little to do with her personality, attitudes, or even skill with Allomancy.

She was simply the only child Ruin could find who was in a position to gain the right Hemalurgic spike—one that would grant her heightened power with bronze, which would then let her sense the location of the Well of Ascension. She had an insane mother, a sister who was a Seeker, and was—herself—Mistborn. That was precisely the combination Ruin needed.

There were other reasons, of course. But even Ruin didn't know them.

So it seems to be mostly convenience, though I think Preservation's reasons might differ, after all we still don't know the exact reason why Vin was able to draw upon the Mists.

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

There’s a scene in Secret History where Ruin reveals to Kelsier some of his plans. Like how he manipulated many humans into spreading info on the Eleventh Metal. And among those plans, Ruin reveals he knew Vin since the day of her birth. This makes sense because he created Vin, and definitely noticed Preservation doing weird things with Vin’s soul. But then Ruin said he was preparing Vin “for even longer” than her birth.

Does this imply Ruin and Preservation were arranging the birth of a Mistborn they could use as the linchpin of their plans? Were they nudging Tevidian and/or Vin’s mother into breeding a particularly talented Mistborn that could manifest the personality traits they desired?

The quote in question: “Leave her alone? She’s mine, Kelsier. Just as you are. I’ve known that child since the day of her birth, and have been preparing her for even longer.”

I'm guessing, before Vin was born, he was just pushing on her mother's mind to drive her even more insane, to prepare her for killing Vin's sister. He probably started to do it once Vin was conceived and his future sight told him there is a high possibility that in the near future Vin will have a Seeker sibling. 

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

There’s a scene in Secret History where Ruin reveals to Kelsier some of his plans. Like how he manipulated many humans into spreading info on the Eleventh Metal. And among those plans, Ruin reveals he knew Vin since the day of her birth. This makes sense because he created Vin, and definitely noticed Preservation doing weird things with Vin’s soul. But then Ruin said he was preparing Vin “for even longer” than her birth.

Does this imply Ruin and Preservation were arranging the birth of a Mistborn they could use as the linchpin of their plans? Were they nudging Tevidian and/or Vin’s mother into breeding a particularly talented Mistborn that could manifest the personality traits they desired?

The quote in question: “Leave her alone? She’s mine, Kelsier. Just as you are. I’ve known that child since the day of her birth, and have been preparing her for even longer.”
 

There's also this nugget from the Annotations and Epigraphs:

Spoiler

Alendi's Logbook:

Quote

 He believes that I have somehow tricked the philosophers, that I wear the piercings of the Hero unjustly.

Ch 79 Ann:

Quote

The Mists Chose Someone

There’s a lot more going on behind the scenes than even the author of these epigraphs knows. Reasons why Vin was chosen, and why the power of Preservation needed a new mind to control it.

The author is right in that Preservation did need someone to control its power, and it did seek for a host in which to invest itself. It began this search with what mind it had left about sixteen years before the return of the power to the Well of Ascension, just as it began a search for a new host before the return of the power the previous time.

Unfortunately, just as Ruin took control and manipulated Alendi, he took control and manipulated Vin.

Words of Founding:

Quote

There is at least one other case of a person who could pierce copperclouds. In her case, however, the situation was slightly different. She was a Mistborn from birth, and her sister was the Seeker. The death of that sister–and subsequent inheritance of power via the Hemalurgic spike used to kill that sister–left her twice as good at burning bronze as a typical Mistborn. And that let her see through the copperclouds of lesser Allomancers.

She once asked Ruin why he had chosen her. The primary answer is simple. It had little to do with her personality, attitudes, or even skill with Allomancy.

She was simply the only child Ruin could find who was in a position to gain the right Hemalurgic spike—one that would grant her heightened power with bronze, which would then let her sense the location of the Well of Ascension. She had an insane mother, a sister who was a Seeker, and was—herself—Mistborn. That was precisely the combination Ruin needed.

There were other reasons, of course. But even Ruin didn't know them.

I believe he is taunting Kelsier by referencing Vin directly - but was really referring to his adding "piercings of the Hero" to the prophesy to ensure that any Hero of Ages would be Spiked, and therefore could be influenced/manipulated - as he did with both Alendi and Vin. 

 

[AleStaar he/him]

On 8/9/2024 at 2:27 AM, JustQuestin2004 said:

An Epigraph from HoA talks on this.

The Hero of Ages Chapter 74 Epigraph

  Reveal hidden contents

She once asked Ruin why he had chosen her. The primary answer is simple. It had little to do with her personality, attitudes, or even skill with Allomancy.

She was simply the only child Ruin could find who was in a position to gain the right Hemalurgic spike—one that would grant her heightened power with bronze, which would then let her sense the location of the Well of Ascension. She had an insane mother, a sister who was a Seeker, and was—herself—Mistborn. That was precisely the combination Ruin needed.

There were other reasons, of course. But even Ruin didn't know them.

So it seems to be mostly convenience, though I think Preservation's reasons might differ, after all we still don't know the exact reason why Vin was able to draw upon the Mists.

I think it’s interesting that everyone remembers Chapter 74’s epigraph, but no one remembers Chapter 79’s epigraph

I think it should be noted that Sazed said the confluence of traits in Vin’s family was Ruin’s primary reason of choosing her, not his only reason. This seems to be an instance of wordplay. It could imply Ruin had at least one other reason for choosing Vin, albeit one that was less important. And this seems to be true.

Sazed notes that Ruin knew the mists were Investing themselves into Vin, and so he acted to give her a spike to block them. The Hero of Ages Chapter 79 Epigraph

Spoiler

 

“I believe that the mists were searching for someone to become a new host for them. The power needed a consciousness to direct it. In this matter, I am still rather confused. Why would power used to create and destroy need a mind to oversee it? And yet, it seems to have only a vague will of its own, tied in to the mandate of its abilities. Without a consciousness to direct it, nothing could actually be created or destroyed. It’s as if the power of Preservation understands that its tendency to reinforce stability is not enough. If nothing changed, nothing would ever come to exist.

    That makes me wonder who or what the minds of Preservation and Ruin were.

    Regardless, the mists—the power of Preservation—chose someone to become their host long before all of this happened. That someone, however, was immediately seized by Ruin and used as a pawn. He must have known that by giving her a disguised Hemalurgic spike, he would keep the mists from Investing themselves in her as they wished.

    The three times she drew upon their power, then, were the three times when her earring had been removed from her body. When she had fought the Lord Ruler, his Allomancy had ripped it free. When fighting Marsh in Fadrex, she had used the earring as a weapon. And, at the end, Marsh ripped it out, freeing her and allowing the mists—which were now desperate for a host, since Preservation’s last wisp was gone—to finally pour themselves into her.”

 

Secret History expands on this. After showing Kelsier the web of future possibilities, Preservation confirmed that Ruin knew of the possibility of Vin defeating him. This is why Ruin used Vin’s spike and his plans for her, to prevent her from Ascending and defeating him. Both Shards knew that possibility had a tiny chance of happening, they just reacted in different ways.

Spoiler

“It broke you,” Preservation said.

 “No, Fuzz.” Kelsier laughed, standing. “No. I can’t stop it. No matter what I do, I can’t stop it.” He looked down at Preservation. “But she can.”

 “He knows this. You were right. He has been preparing her, infusing her.”

 “She can beat it.”

 “A frail possibility,” Preservation said. “A false promise.”

 

I have theories as to why only Vin could draw upon the Mists. I will speculate that Vin was special because Preservation not only foresaw Vin could be his immediate successor, but foresaw she could be willing to kill and sacrifice her life if it meant protecting her loved ones. And in response, Ruin reacted to this frail future sight chance, choosing to prevent the outcome by spiking Vin. 

If we’re talking about the cosmere mechanics of why only Vin could draw the mists… My guess is Preservation fiddled with Vin’s soul during fertilization or birth. Probably implanted things into her Identity and/or Connections that told the mists “only I can use your power. I am the one who can defeat Ruin.”

Edited August 10, 2024 by Ale the Metallic Conjurer

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

If we’re talking about the cosmere mechanics of why only Vin could draw the mists…

Wax did this as well.

Spoiler

Questioner

Has Wax drawn on the mists at some point?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

 

[Elite01]

It would be interesting if by acting within preservations intent you could draw on the mists. I feel like Vin does it whenever she needs an extra boost in a fight which doesn't mesh with preservations intent but it was part of his plan so maybe that is why it was okay? 

For Wax I can't remember the specific moments but I think they generally fall under the category of him fighting to preserve something, like the city or the law.

Edited August 10, 2024 by Elite01

[Duxredux he/him]

Ever since the Hemalurgic table said that Chromium "might steal destiny" I've wondered about the extent that predestination is present in the Cosmere. We have the Terris Prophecies and the Hero of Ages, but the fact that this is potentially an attribute stealable by Hemalurgy indicates that destiny is an integrated part of the Spiritweb. Full Cosmere spoilers:

Spoiler

Furthermore from Ishar pulling Dalinar's Connections, we know that some of these "destinies" are readable by someone with the proper powerset and that they are stealable. The visions of Odium add to this.

While I'm at it, there is some heritage traits that could be argued have an element of destiny at least in potential as seen in the Royal Locks of the Idrian royal family. Only potential legitimate heirs are born with the Locks, those with the potential destiny of wearing the crown.

Something that I find interesting is the parallel between Kelsier and Marsh with Vin and her Seeker sister. What if Kelsier had Snapped during childbirth like Vin had, 21 years before Vin's birth? Would Ruin have had Marsh killed to implant a Bronze spike in Kel? Kel would have done as Vin did, this is pretty clear. Kelsier however never Snapped in all of his dangerous exploits, not until he was in Hathsin when Preservation spoke to him and reinforced his soul (possibly boosting his Investiture to Mistborn level, or Snapping him).

Some were speculating that Preservation and/or Ruin were tampering with Vin's Spiritweb, I think Kelsier may be worth examining as one who was not a valid option for their machinations, or that Preservation out maneuvered Ruin here.

As for Vin drawing the Mists, Full Cosmere spoilers again:

Spoiler

We know that a Shard can designate and Invest a champion. This is a known and potentially formalized process. Hoid was Pushing for a contest of champions on Roshar as a fully valid and understood solution for the conflict with Odium. I assume that this is part of Harmony choosing Wax as his sword - and perhaps as a champion Wax could draw on the Mists. Presumably Vin was the champion of Preservation and was certainly acting as Preservations surrogate when she released Ruin from the Well of Ascension. I think this is why she could draw on the Mists.

Other possible cases are Ruin selecting Marsh as his champion, which might explain why Harmony can occasionally Invest Marsh to fulfill certain functions. I could also see Raoden passively selected as a champion when viewing how the Dor tried to Invest him like an Aon before he figured out the Chasm line.

Found a WoB. Marsh vs Elend was an echo of a contest of champions, but wouldn't have been considered one without formalization. What I'm not sure on is if this is stating that the rules of "one side wins and has to obey the failure clause" or the part that a champion can be picked and Invested.

Spoiler

Raddatatta

You've said in previous WoBs that that there have been champions of other Shards, like what Dalinar and Odium are doing in their deal. Would the battle between Elend and Marsh or Vin and Marsh count as a similar type of contest of champions, or would that have to be more formalized to have them be considered champions?

Brandon Sanderson

To be considered, I would've said that had to be more formalized. I wouldn't consider what happened there... It's definitely an echo, but I don't think it would fit. There's been legit, actual, contractual sorts of things that have happened.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022)

 

 

Edited August 10, 2024 by Duxredux

[Ninth of the Night]

20 hours ago, Elite01 said:

For Wax I can't remember the specific moments but I think they generally fall under the category of him fighting to preserve something, like the city or the law.

There are two types of Mist, one for Preservation and the other for Ruin. My guess is Wax has drawn more from the latter, as Harmony's Sword he Ruins as much if not more than he Preserves.

Do we have any confirmation on which moments he was enhanced? The bullet deflect in AoL maybe, and the staircase massacre in TLM for sure.