How did Dalinar capture the thrill exactly?

[king of nowhere]

in the climax of oathbringer, dalinar comes to the thrill with the perfect gem, and captures it.

how could that possibly work?

here quoting from the lecture of navani on fabrials, from the rythm of war epigraphs

Quote

 

"First, you must get a spren to approach.

The type of gemstone is relevant; some spren are naturally more intrigued by certain gemstones. In addition, it is essential to calm the spren with something it knows and loves. A good fire for a flamespren, for example, is a must."

"Next, let the spren inspect your trap. The gemstone must not be fully infused, but also cannot be fully dun. Experiments have concluded that seventy percent of maximum Stormlight capacity works best.

If you have done your work correctly, the spren will become fascinated by its soon-to-be prison. It will dance around the stone, peek at it, float around it."

"The final step in capturing spren is the most tricky, as you must remove the Stormlight from the gemstone. [...] "If the Stormlight in a gemstone is withdrawn quickly enough, a nearby spren can be sucked into the gemstone. This is caused by a similar effect to a pressure differential, created by the sudden withdrawal of Stormlight"

 

first, you get a spren to approach, using something it loves. dalinar worked perfectly well for the thrill. he also knew that part from talking with his wife. so far, so good. next, the spren will inspect the trap, in this case the king's drop ruby. the gemstone must not be fully infused. and here we find the first problem. dalinar had just manifested his power, recharging all nearby gemstones. the king's drop must have been full to burst with stormlight. unless for some way it was shielded from the act, because the fused were carrying it too far, in which case it should have been dun, from when the larkin had absorbed it. in both cases, it should not have worked. but the final step in capturing the spren is the most tricky, as you must remove the stormlight from the gemstone. which dalinar could do, as a radiant, by simply taking it. Incidentally, radiants may become very prized in the fabrial industry. but dalinar didn't know he had to do that. he had the conversation with navani about attracting a spren with something it loves a few chapters early, and it absolutely did not mention draining the gem. so, in short, 1) the gem should have been unsuitable for trapping the unmade, either for being full of stormlight, or for being empty. then 2)  dalinar had no knowledge of needing to drain the gem.   so, how did dalinar manage to trap Nergaoul after all?

Edited August 4, 2024 by king of nowhere

[alder24]

19 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

next, the spren will inspect the trap, in this case the king's drop ruby. the gemstone must not be fully infused. and here we find the first problem. dalinar had just manifested his power, recharging all nearby gemstones. the king's drop must have been full to burst with stormlight. unless for some way it was shielded from the act, because the fused were carrying it too far, in which case it should have been dun, from when the larkin had absorbed it. in both cases, it should not have worked.

It was dun. OB ch 120:

Quote

A flying Parshendi—“Fused” was a term Lift had used for them—shot out of the ship, carrying the large dun ruby that Dalinar sought.

 

24 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

but dalinar didn't know he had to do that. he had the conversation with navani about attracting a spren with something it loves a few chapters early, and it absolutely did not mention draining the gem.

Yes, Taravangian told him that. Full quote OB ch 100:

Quote

Taravangian tapped the half-shard shield. “Do you know how we capture spren for fabrials, Dalinar? From spanreeds to heatrials, it’s all the same. You lure the spren with something it loves. You give it something familiar to draw it in, something it knows deeply. In that moment, it becomes your slave.”

 

24 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

so, in short, 1) the gem should have been unsuitable for trapping the unmade, either for being full of stormlight, or for being empty. then 2)  dalinar had no knowledge of needing to drain the gem.

so, how did dalinar manage to trap Nergaoul after all?

That's an interesting question. I think for a spren as big as Nergaoul, draining the gemstone out of light isn't needed - they're just too massive and too invested for something like this to affect them. As for why a dun gemstone worked, the book said the Thrill wanted to take over Dalinar, to control him and to give him something in return - that's Connection being formed. This is something that no Firespren, or any other spren from fabrials does with people. The Thrill wasn't focused on the gemstone, it didn't go to inspect it, it was focused only on Dalinar. Dalinar let him into his mind, he accepted it, embraced it and lastly he understood the Thrill. And with this I think Dalinar was able to take over the Thrill instead and guide him into the gemstone with their Connection. He understood it and that gave him control over this Connection. It might not be a satisfying explanation, but I can't think of anything else.  

Note: this is not a Bondsmith exclusive method because a Lightweaver once trapped Re-Shephir in a gemstone too - this must be something everyone with sufficient Connection can do.

OB ch 120:

Spoiler

Quote

Though he had once crawled before the Nightwatcher to beg for release, he no longer wished to forget. “I embrace you,” he said. “I accept what I was.”
The Thrill colored his sight red, inflicting a deep longing for the fight, the conflict, the challenge. If he rejected it, he would drive the Thrill away.
“Thank you,” Dalinar said, “for giving me strength when I needed it.”
The Thrill thrummed with a pleased sound. It drew in closer to him, the faces of red mist grinning with excitement and glee. Charging horses screamed and died. Men laughed as they were cut down.
Dalinar was once again walking on the stone toward the Rift, intent on murdering everyone inside. He felt the heat of anger. The yearning so powerful, it made him ache.
“I was that man,” Dalinar said. “I understand you.”
[...]
The Thrill threatened to take him, control him, rip him apart and shred his soul in its eagerness to please him—to give him something it could never understand was dangerous.
[...]
“Shallan saw one of the Unmade in the tower,” he whispered. “When she got close, it was afraid, but I don’t think the Thrill comprehends like it did. You see, it can only be bested by someone who deeply, sincerely, understands it.”
He lifted the gemstone above his head, and—one last time—embraced the Thrill.
War.
Victory.
The contest.
Dalinar’s entire life had been a competition: a struggle from one conquest to the next. He accepted what he had done. It would always be part of him. And though he was determined to resist, he would not cast aside what he had learned. That very thirst for the struggle—the fight, the victory—had also prepared him to refuse Odium.
“Thank you,” he whispered again to the Thrill, “for giving me strength when I needed it.”
The Thrill churned close around him, cooing and exulting in his praise.
“Now, old friend, it is time to rest.”

 

 

[king of nowhere]

10 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 

 

Yes, Taravangian told him that. Full quote OB ch 100:

Taravangian tapped the half-shard shield. “Do you know how we capture spren for fabrials, Dalinar? From spanreeds to heatrials, it’s all the same. You lure the spren with something it loves. You give it something familiar to draw it in, something it knows deeply. In that moment, it becomes your slave.”

 

there is nothing there about draining stormlight from the gem, though. my point that dalinar had no knowledge of needing to drain a gem stands.

 

Spoiler

It was dun. OB ch 120:

A flying Parshendi—“Fused” was a term Lift had used for them—shot out of the ship, carrying the large dun ruby that Dalinar sought.

curious. dalinr had just created the perpendicularity, charging all gems. how did that ruby stay dun?

 

Spoiler

That's an interesting question. I think for a spren as big as Nergaoul, draining the gemstone out of light isn't needed - they're just too massive and too invested for something like this to affect them. As for why a dun gemstone worked, the book said the Thrill wanted to take over Dalinar, to control him and to give him something in return - that's Connection being formed. This is something that no Firespren, or any other spren from fabrials does with people. The Thrill wasn't focused on the gemstone, it didn't go to inspect it, it was focused only on Dalinar. Dalinar let him into his mind, he accepted it, embraced it and lastly he understood the Thrill. And with this I think Dalinar was able to take over the Thrill instead and guide him into the gemstone with their Connection. He understood it and that gave him control over this Connection. It might not be a satisfying explanation, but I can't think of anything else.  

Note: this is not a Bondsmith exclusive method because a Lightweaver once trapped Re-Shephir in a gemstone too - this must be something everyone with sufficient Connection can do.

OB ch 120:

 

that makes sense. and wouldn't require dalinar to know any standard technique

[alder24]

9 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

curious. dalinr had just created the perpendicularity, charging all gems. how did that ruby stay dun?

By the time he opened his perpendicularity, the gemstone was probably already on one of the ships, far away from it. OB ch 120:

Quote

“So,” she said to him. “How do we find that ruby?”
Szeth pointed with his sheathed Shardblade toward the ships docked in the bay. “The creature carrying it ran back that way.” The parshmen still clustered there, deep within the shadow of the Everstorm.

 

[JohnnyKaizen he/him]

On 8/4/2024 at 6:00 PM, alder24 said:

By the time he opened his perpendicularity, the gemstone was probably already on one of the ships, far away from it. OB ch 120:

 

Also, and maybe I'm remembering wrong..but isn't there a mention of a circumference/range of the lit gemstones? Which was well short of the ocean? 

[Mattel]

On 8/4/2024 at 3:29 PM, alder24 said:

That's an interesting question. I think for a spren as big as Nergaoul, draining the gemstone out of light isn't needed - they're just too massive and too invested for something like this to affect them. As for why a dun gemstone worked, the book said the Thrill wanted to take over Dalinar, to control him and to give him something in return - that's Connection being formed. This is something that no Firespren, or any other spren from fabrials does with people. The Thrill wasn't focused on the gemstone, it didn't go to inspect it, it was focused only on Dalinar. Dalinar let him into his mind, he accepted it, embraced it and lastly he understood the Thrill. And with this I think Dalinar was able to take over the Thrill instead and guide him into the gemstone with their Connection. He understood it and that gave him control over this Connection. It might not be a satisfying explanation, but I can't think of anything else.  

Note: this is not a Bondsmith exclusive method because a Lightweaver once trapped Re-Shephir in a gemstone too - this must be something everyone with sufficient Connection can do.

Yeah I think that part about the Connection seems very accurate. And since the Unmade contain a large amount of Investiture, perhaps Dalinar was able to sort of funnel the Thrill into the King's Drop, similarly to when you use a pure tone and transfer Investiture from one gem to another. 

Perhaps the fact that the gem was a perfect gem was why the process of putting Nergaoul into the ruby so much easier. Modern Artifabrians use very good, but still flawed gemstones. Maybe because the gemstones they use in fabrials are not perfect are why they need the 70% Storm light and such to trap spren.

[Lhyllianna they/them]

If we consider spren a form of Investiture (which is speculative on my part based on their connection to Cultivation and Honor, but may well be incorrect), and then also consider the MoI from the planet in Sunlit Man (spoilered because it a major plot point of the novel; first spoiler is vague, second is specific)

Spoiler

(they have items that hold Investiture but can't recharge them; their MoI is the exchange of warmth via touch)

Spoiler

(the residents can recharge their sunhearts by ensuring they retain a small amount of charge - including by Investing some of their own warmth into one - and leaving them in the sun; draining a sunheart completely renders it useless)

, then perhaps the Stormlight has to be drained for there to be "space" within the gemstone for the spren. Or spren are made of condensed Investiture in such a way that the Stormlight prevents the gem from cracking when it enters? That second theory doesn't really work here though.

The Thrill has always been attracted to Dalinar (or perhaps vice versa), as several other replies point out, and Dalinar reliving his memories from times he was under the influence of the Thrill may be enough to entice the Thrill to him.

Nergaoul may also simply be too large to cohabitate with Stormlight inside even that large of a gem.

Stormlight may also provide an amount of nourishment to manifested spren, although my memory is hazy on certain details that would clarify that.

That's all a little scattered, this is an interesting question.

[Treamayne]

11 minutes ago, Lhyllianna said:

If we consider spren a form of Investiture (which is speculative on my part based on their connection to Cultivation and Honor, but may well be incorrect), and then also consider the MoI from the planet in Sunlit Man (spoilered because it a major plot point of the novel; first spoiler is vague, second is specific)

  Hide contents

(they have items that hold Investiture but can't recharge them; their MoI is the exchange of warmth via touch)

  Hide contents

(the residents can recharge their sunhearts by ensuring they retain a small amount of charge - including by Investing some of their own warmth into one - and leaving them in the sun; draining a sunheart completely renders it useless)

, then perhaps the Stormlight has to be drained for there to be "space" within the gemstone for the spren. Or spren are made of condensed Investiture in such a way that the Stormlight prevents the gem from cracking when it enters? That second theory doesn't really work here though.

The Thrill has always been attracted to Dalinar (or perhaps vice versa), as several other replies point out, and Dalinar reliving his memories from times he was under the influence of the Thrill may be enough to entice the Thrill to him.

Nergaoul may also simply be too large to cohabitate with Stormlight inside even that large of a gem.

Stormlight may also provide an amount of nourishment to manifested spren, although my memory is hazy on certain details that would clarify that.

That's all a little scattered, this is an interesting question.

Spren are definitely investiture - they are Splinters. 
However, capturing an Unmade in a perfect gem does not function the way that Fabrial spren are coaxed into a gem - you do not need to drain any Light to capture an Unmade - it instead requires Connection. WoB:

Spoiler

OddyFan

Did Dalinar use his Bondsmith abilities to catch Nergaoul?

Brandon Sanderson

What happened here has happened before, but a Bondsmith was involved then too. However, Dalinar's personal connection to the Unmade was very important.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 27, 2018)

That's also why Re-Shephir ran from Shallan when she realized that Shallan had such a Connection. She had already been captured in a Gem before and had learned to be wary of imprisonment. Dalinar remarks on that in one of the sections quoted above.