What heightening is Hoid at?

[Doomslug the Arcane she/her]

I've been wondering how much breath Hoid has, I'm assuming he has a lot. How much breath do we think Hoid really has though? Cause, in RoW, we learn that Hoid's using breath to store memories, and I have no idea how that works, but Hoid is really old and has a lot of memories, and I'm guessing each breath stores like, one memory?? So he must have a lot, and it would make sense for him to have at least perfect pitch and perfect color(? I'm not sure what it's called). Idk.

[Quantus he/him]

At least 3rd, based on his Perfect Pitch and Color capabilities.  By the sound of it he also has a whole bunch that are doing specific things (Memories, etc) so those may not be contributing to Heightening effects.  His Immortality is from other, older sources.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

At least 3rd, based on his Perfect Pitch and Color capabilities.  By the sound of it he also has a whole bunch that are doing specific things (Memories, etc) so those may not be contributing to Heightening effects.  His Immortality is from other, older sources.  

I only recall him having perfect pitch, not perfect color recognition though.

Plus, when Todium stole a sliver of his Breath it was enough to meddle with his perfect pitch, which suggests to me he's almost exactly at the second Heightening, perhaps excluding any holding his memories. 

[Quantus he/him]

11 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

I only recall him having perfect pitch, not perfect color recognition though.

Plus, when Todium stole a sliver of his Breath it was enough to meddle with his perfect pitch, which suggests to me he's almost exactly at the second Heightening, perhaps excluding any holding his memories. 

The Heightenings are continuous progressions that are simply considered to be more or less topped out when they hit those milestones. So even with that loss of those breaths  he'd presumably still have some level of incomplete Perfect Color recognition which I believe he is using to read/interpret the greyscale change of the White Sand when he's using it as in Investiture measuring tool.  

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

The Heightenings are continuous progressions that are simply considered to be more or less topped out when they hit those milestones. So even with that loss of those breaths  he'd presumably still have some level of incomplete Perfect Color recognition which I believe he is using to read/interpret the greyscale change of the White Sand when he's using it as in Investiture measuring tool.  

It's true that he'd still have some color recognition even before the third Heightening, but the reason I say he must be at the second Heightening (before Todium) is because a tiny loss of less than a single Breath shouldn't interfere with his perfect pitch if he has more than 200 Breaths.

Edited July 31, 2024 by Trusk'our

[alder24]

48 minutes ago, Doomslug Doomslug Doomslug said:

I've been wondering how much breath Hoid has, I'm assuming he has a lot. How much breath do we think Hoid really has though? Cause, in RoW, we learn that Hoid's using breath to store memories, and I have no idea how that works, but Hoid is really old and has a lot of memories, and I'm guessing each breath stores like, one memory?? So he must have a lot, and it would make sense for him to have at least perfect pitch and perfect color(? I'm not sure what it's called). Idk.

Less than 200 now. He had exactly 200 before Taravangian messed with his Breaths, now he's below that because he lost his Perfect Pitch. He's at the 1st Heightening now, before he was at the 2nd. Breaths that hold memory do contribute to Heightenings, just like normal Breaths do, otherwise Odium breaking his Breaths would not have touched his Perfect Pitch, which is granted by the 2nd Heightening.

Storing memories in Breaths works similarly like a Coppermind. We had it hinted in RoW that it's possible, while in Warbreaker it was just shown to us, without explanation. Breaths work like an SD card. A special Command and Intent is needed to do that - it's not that complicated once you know how to do it, proven by Warbreaker.

RoW epilogue:

Quote

He tried to find a tune to whistle, but each one sounded wrong. Something was fiddling with his perfect pitch.

RoW ch 84 epigraphs:

Quote

"Midius once told me … told me we could use Investiture … to enhance our minds, our memories, so we wouldn’t forget so much."

Warbreaker ch 49:

Spoiler

Quote

“Child,” he said. “I’m going to say some words to you. I want you to repeat them. Repeat them, and mean them.”
[...]
He spoke to the little girl, and she spoke back to him.
[...]
The girl’s BioChromatic aura—the normal one that all people had—flickered just slightly. It was faint.
Yet with the First Heightening, Vivenna could have sworn she saw it.
[...]
Vasher stood, the girl climbing back into his arms. Vivenna walked up and was surprised to hear the girl talking. “Where’s Daddy?” she asked.
Vasher didn’t reply.
“I’m dirty,” the girl said, looking down. “Mommy doesn’t like it when I get dirty. The dress is dirty too.”
Vasher began walking. Vivenna hurriedly caught up.
“Are we going home?” the girl asked. “Where have we been? It’s late, and I shouldn’t be out. Who’s that woman?”
She doesn’t remember, Vivenna realized. Doesn’t remember where she’s been . . . probably doesn’t remember anything of the entire experience.

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Memory is tied to some level or portion of Spiritual Identity, or else Feruchemists would not be able to store it. So, Hoid lost memories at the end of Rhythm of War in his exchange with Odium. Would that mean part of his soul was stolen and then absorbed into Odium, and if so, what is stopping Odium from doing that with all of his enemies?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, what Odium split off is stuff that Hoid is storing in excess Investiture. (Basically, it was Breaths, in Hoid’s case.) And this sort of thing, where this extra memory… One of the reasons that Hoid is able to function better than, perhaps, some other very long-lived individuals is: he has found out how to keep some of this Identity in, shall we say, SD cards made of Investiture. Imagine that sort of thing. So what Odium was stealing from Hoid was straight out of an SD card. Which means that it’s not nearly as deeply ripping into someone’s soul, and it is also not nearly as noticeable.

But the other thing is: Hoid is directly in violation of certain agreements that have been made, which therefore exposes him to… He is lacking protections. As you’ll notice in the end of Book Three, where he’s like, “I need to be careful, because I am in violation.”

And so, there’s a couple things going on here. Number one, much more easy to access those memories. Number two, Hoid’s in direct violation and under no protections of any sorts of agreements and things like this.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) 

 

However, in the OB epilogue, he used some of his Breaths to Awaken a doll, which he gave to a little girl in Kholinar. It's unlikely that he was able to recover then, thus it's most likely that he has more Breaths hidden in his clothes or somewhere else, so a loss of a few Breaths shouldn't matter to him that much (unlike the loss of his memories). How many Breaths in total he has, we don't know. 

Quote

He raised the doll to his lips, then whispered a choice set of words.
When he set it down, it started to walk on its own. A soft gasp sounded inside the shadows. The little doll toddled toward the street. Step by step by step …
The girl, maybe four years old, finally emerged from the shadows and ran to get the doll. Wit stood and dusted off his coat, which was now grey. The girl hugged the patchwork creation, and he picked her up, turning away from the broken building—and the bones of a leg sticking from the rubble just inside.
[...]
He hesitated, then leaned down and touched the doll in the child’s hands. “Forget what I told you before,” he whispered. “Instead, take care of her.”