Confused Posted July 27, 2024 Posted July 27, 2024 (edited) Magic systems are each unique and complex, but they do contain common features. 1. Specific magical abilities are not unique to any Shard. Multiple systems grant flying, emotional manipulation, and physical enhancements, each in their own way. 2. How the magic user accesses Investiture is Shard-dependent. For example, Honor’s magic users access his Investiture through bonds, Preservation’s through stasis, and Ruin’s through acts of entropy. 3. A third magical element, and the subject of this post, is a Shard’s “pathway to power.” I theorize kinetic Investiture reaches the magic user down some Spiritual Realm route between the magic user and Shard. Pathways are a special form of Connection between a magic user and Shard. Known pathways, unlike other Connections, are made from matter or energy. Preservation’s metal is the clearest example. Most Connections convey information. Pathways seem to convey kinetic Investiture. In many magic systems, the magic consumes the pathway (e.g., Allomantic metals and Sand Master’s water). In these systems, the magic ends when the consumed pathway ends. Pathways are different from the Shard’s “primal force...fundamental law” that grants magic users access to the Shard’s Investiture. Marasi introduces the idea of pathways in Bands of Mourning: Quote There were no people or objects, just energy coalesced. The metals shone brilliantly, as if they were holes into someplace different. Concentrated essence, providing a pathway to power. (BoM Chapter 28, Kindle p. 359, emphasis added.) This WoB highlights the similar idea of “natural pathways,” which seems to refer to pre-programmed magical templates: Quote Questioner From what I understand, Ruin and Preservation create the world together, and they created humanity as copies of the original humankind. So how did they give Allomancy to Scadrial? Brandon Sanderson Yes. So the magic systems are kind of built into the setting and the world. And there are certain natural pathways that exist, in the same way there are certain natural pathways for them to create life. Which is my explanation for why life is so similar on all the different planets, is that they're following natural pathways, and these magics are kind of the same way. For instance, Lightweaving predates the Shattering of Adonalsium. A lot of these other things are suggestive of magics that existed before that were built around Adonalsium. They weren't 100% created by the Shards, but they also do have the Shards' influence on them. Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018) (emphasis added). Here’s a chart of my uncertain choices about Shard features. I don’t know enough about the unincluded Shards to comment on them. This chart is highly speculative. I use the “old” word “Focus” rather than the current word “Command” to put the “focus” on the substance or action that accompanies/is part of the Command. Explanations (rationalizations?) follow. Shard Access to Investiture Pathway to Power Focus Preservation Stasis Metal Metal Ruin Entropy Unknown – Metal? Metal Cultivation Transformation Life Spren Honor Bonds Oaths? Splinters Odium Broken Connections Emotion Splinters Autonomy Fractals Water Visualized Command Endowment Quanta EMR Visualized Command Dominion Potential Energy Ground Motion Devotion Kinetic Energy Ground Topographical Symbol Brief (Speculation-filled) Explanations: Preservation: Brandon confirms Preservation is the “Stasis Shard.” A finite number of Lerasium beads is responsible for all Allomancers. Brandon also confirms metal is Preservation’s pathway to power, as quoted above. Ruin: Brandon confirms Ruin is the “Entropy Shard” (same WoB as Preservation’s). I don’t know what Ruin’s pathway is, but like Preservation’s it may be metal. I largely base that guess on the fact that Nightblood is steel yet doesn’t Focus any Allomantic, Hemalurgic, or Feruchemical abilities (to our knowledge). I believe metal is also Ruin’s Focus, like it is Preservation’s, since metal Focuses both Hemalurgy and Feruchemy. While Hemalurgic bind points matter too, the Ruinous (entropic) act that accesses Investiture is shattering the transferor’s body, Focused by the spike’s material. Cultivation: I believe Cultivation is the “Transformation Shard.” Her magic users access Investiture by converting matter and/or energy into Investiture, like Lift does. Cultivation’s magic represents the cosmere’s first law of thermodynamics. Cultivation confirms to Dalinar that “life” is her pathway: Quote "I CONTROL ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN, NURTURED." (OB, Chapter 114, Kindle p. 1079.) Because the Shard’s “natural pathway” is lifeforms, I believe Transformation expresses itself as Evolution. Odium: I think Odium is the “Shard of Broken Connections.” IMO, his pathway to power is emotional Connections. His Investiture flows through that pathway to rouse or calm “Passions.” (I believe he also affects emotions by manipulating the Connections that constitute a person’s conscience.) I think Odium manipulates Connections through a mix of breaking and restoring them. IMO, Odium uses this process to manipulate every Connection, including the Surges, like I think the Fused do. Emotional Connections, though, are the only pathways that carry Odium’s Investiture (I theorize). I think Odium is the best “Shard Killer” because he most easily severs the Connection between Shard and Vessel that keeps the Vessel alive. Honor: Brandon confirms that Honor is the “Bond Shard.” As shown in the Dalinar-Venli vision (OB, Chapter 109, Kindle pp. 1024-1026), Honor’s and Odium’s magic oppose each other – one bonds and one breaks. I don’t know what Honor’s pathway to power is. My current guess: the Connections that establish mutual commitments among people – oaths, promises, etc. The control test should be the Honorblades, which are pure Honor Splinters. Yet anyone can use a Blade, including Szeth, other Shin, even Vyre. The reason anyone can use Blades, I speculate, is that Honor’s now dead and can’t “chain” – throttle – his pathway to the Blades. Without Honor’s Vessel at one end of the pathway, there’s no mutuality between Honor and the Bladeholder. Honor’s death made Ishar an “unchained” Bondsmith. (This analysis presumes the Heralds made some promise or oath to Honor about the Blades, the reason why Ishar’s now unchained.) OTOH, each Radiant oath does strengthen their Connection to Honor because they make their oath to the Stormfather, not Honor (discounting Honor’s Cognitive Shadow). Mutual oaths like the Oathpact remain in effect because those Connections continue among the living Heralds. But this is all just a guess; I’m sure Honor wouldn’t need a promise or oath to shut down an Honorblade if Tanavast were alive. Autonomy: I believe Autonomy is the “Fractal Shard.” Avatars are the best examples of Autonomy’s fractals. I think each Sand Master’s sand ribbon separately accesses Investiture from a different Autonomy Splinter, a discrete “autonomous” fractal. Though Autonomy delivers Investiture to Taldain from its sun, I believe water is Autonomy’s pathway. Taldain’s water cycle circulates the Investiture throughout the planet. Khriss says Sand Master dehydration accesses a small stream of kinetic Investiture. (AU, “The Taldain System,” p. 369.) Water-reactive microflora absorb the Invested water to create a cognitive bond with the Master. Water makes the microflora grow rapidly. The Master, through the water bond, shapes that growth, and in turn the sand, using visualized commands (IMO) much like Awakeners do. The magic stops when the Master stops dehydrating. I believe a weak form of cognitive water bond also exists on the Patji Archipelago, a known Autonomy Avatar built from the ocean floor. Both land and sea predators there (IMO) hunt their prey through a temporary water bond, stronger in the ocean than the “deep humidity” of the island. Roshar holds a “gathering” of Autonomy’s post-Shattering “assigned Investiture.” I believe much of that Investiture built the Rosharan pangaea, a Julia Set fractal raised from the sea floor. Endowment: I think Endowment is the “Quantum Shard.” Breaths are the cosmere’s sole, pre-packaged quantum of Investiture. (Because Breaths are a valuable, freely transferable, yet limited resource, I wrote a post entitled “Business Plan for Monetizing Breaths.”) With trepidation and much controversy, I believe Endowment’s pathway to power is Electromagnetic Radiation (EMR). I think Awakening can use any form of kinetic Investiture from any Shard and on any planet; but the Investiture must first be quantized to travel down an EMR pathway (like light) to the Awakener. The basis for this theory is the idea that color is just the perception of reflected light. I think an Awakened object must already hold Investiture that the Awakener drains, and the loss of that Investiture turns the object gray. This idea is borne out by the fact that black, the absence of color, holds more Investiture than white, which is the totality of colors. The reason IMO is that black absorbs more light than white does. On Nalthis, I speculate that Endowment Invests photons (light quanta) from the sun that are absorbed by objects on the planet. Like Sand Mastery with water and Allomancy with metal, Awakening ends when an object is fully drained of its “color” (or IMO its quantized Investiture). Dominion and Devotion: Speaking of wild speculation... I think Dominion and Devotion are, respectively, the “Potential Energy and Kinetic Energy Shards.” They shared a single magic system until Odium Splintered them. IMO, Dominion controls magical access on Sel, setting the conditions under which potential energy becomes kinetic energy. Programming-type language based on local topography are the joint system’s Focus. Magic users gain more precise magical ability the more complex their topographic form. It’s as if Dominion challenges magic users to prove their knowledge of (and dominion over) their homeland before bestowing magic on them. Sel’s magic user’s execute their programming language through motion – drawing an Aon, turning an essence stamp, stirring a potion, dancing, or bending bones. IMO, completing the motion’s form converts Dominion’s potential energy into Devotion’s kinetic energy that performs the actual magic. Maybe... I think Sel’s ground is the pathway for both Shards. Sel’s location-based magics and topographical forms show the ground is Invested. Khriss confirms Sel’s “landscape” is becoming even more Invested. Raoden had to draw Aon Rao on the ground, not in the air, to restore Elantris. I speculate Sel’s magic users consume Investiture that leaches from the ground into the food chain. Shai’s essence stamp uses organic inks. Bloodsealers use their target’s blood. Dakhor monk bones hold Investiture deposited from their food. Forton’s potions use organic ingredients. Conclusion Shards give magic users access to Investiture in unique ways. I believe the Spiritual Realm pathway their Investiture takes to reach the magic user is also unique. You may disagree with my choices – I disagree with some of my choices – but the concept of pathways seems viable. Edited July 27, 2024 by Confused 3
Treamayne Posted July 27, 2024 Posted July 27, 2024 Interesting theory, but I would note that you are missing a component of the base. The world on which the Shard has invested has an impact in how that MoI develops. WoB: Spoiler Quote <Edited for length and relevance> Kaimipono On a broader level, is Hemalurgy officially dead, then? Or is it still extant in some Ruin-free (but still messy) form? (If it's gone, is there any imbalance since Preservation's magic power is kept and Ruin's isn't?) Brandon Sanderson Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) Quote Chaos Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things? Brandon Sanderson One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited. The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift--allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy. /r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011) The Metallic arts use Metal because of Scadrial, the planet, not because of Preservation or Ruin (or both). Surgebinding and Voidbinding use Light because the the nature of Roshar, not because of Honor, Odium or Cultivation. et cetera. 1 hour ago, Confused said: I use the “old” word “Focus” rather than the current word “Command” to put the “focus” on the substance or action that accompanies/is part of the Command. Also, Focus and Command are not the same. A Focus can provide the "command" (Metals, Aons), but a Command will not be a focus for accessing investure (On Nalthis the Command tells breath what to do, but the breath does not come from the Command - Here focus is "Giving" and "breathing" and command is entirely separate). Keep in mind there is a separate duplicate term specifically in Awakening (especially in the Annotations and old WoBs) having to do with using specific actions (hair focus) or additions to make Awakening more efficient to get more ability with less breath: Spoiler Warbreaker Prologue: Quote Vasher had around fifty Breaths, just enough to reach the first Heightening. Having so few made him feel poor compared with what he’d once held, but many would consider fifty Breaths to be a great treasure. Unfortunately, even Awakening a small figure made from organic material—using a piece of his own body as a focus—drained away some half of his Breaths. The little straw figure jerked, sucking in the Breath. In Vasher’s hand, half of the brilliant red scarf faded to grey. <snip> Vasher leaned down, trying not to think of the days when he’d had enough Breaths to Awaken without regard for shape or focus. That had been a different time. Annotations to the Prologue: Quote Voodoo dolls, for instance. This is very common in tribal magics and shamanistic rituals—something in the figure of a person, or the figure of the thing it’s supposed to affect, is often seen as being more powerful or more desirable. The same is said for having a drop of blood or a tiny piece of skin, even a piece of hair. Those two things—making the doll in the shape of a man and using a bit of his own body as a focus—are supposed to create instant resonance in the magic for those reading it. I think it works, too. Unfortunately, there’s a problem with this, much like with the colors above. In later chapters, the characters are generally powerful enough with the magic that they don’t have to make things in human shape or use pieces of their own body as a focus. If I were to write a sequel to the book (and I just might—more on this later) I’d want to get back to these two aspects of the magic. Talk about them more, maybe have characters who have smaller quantities of Breath, and so need to use these tricks to make their Awakening more powerful. WoB: Quote Chaos In Dawnshard we learned that Intent and Command are two different things, whereas in Warbreaker Vasher is clearly conflating these two into just saying it's the Command. What's the difference between Intent and Command? Brandon Sanderson Intent encompasses more understanding. Command is specifically narrow. A lot of times, these things are gonna be conflated, because they basically can be. Like, if Vasher creates an awakened thing and says "go get me those keys." The Intent is: "I need the keys to get outta here. I want to be free." The Command is: "Go fetch keys." Those are two different things, but they are working toward the same goal. It is important in cosmere terms that the Intent is understood, even if sometimes the words that can speak 'em are clunky and smaller in scale by nature than the Intent. Let's say the Intent of a Shard encompasses more than the word that the Shard is described by. It's a similar thing that the Intent of a Command is often vaster than the actual words spoken. And the magic can grasp the Intent, not just the Command, depending on the magic system and how good you are at it, and things like that. The words are there to focus Intent. How about that? Chaos Bringing the old word "focus" back into it. Let's talk about body focuses; what's going on there? (That's a joke.) Brandon Sanderson I'll throw you a kernel on that one in the fifth book if you watch for it. That old Rosharan philosophy will actually be relevant for a small thing happening in the fifth book. Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021) Hope that helps you expand and refine your theory. 1
alder24 Posted July 28, 2024 Posted July 28, 2024 13 hours ago, Confused said: Preservation’s through stasis Stasis? It's a gift granting you strength, giving you power, protecting you. It strengthens your soul, Preserving your life. I wouldn't call that stasis. 13 hours ago, Confused said: 3. A third magical element, and the subject of this post, is a Shard’s “pathway to power.” I theorize kinetic Investiture reaches the magic user down some Spiritual Realm route between the magic user and Shard. That's not true for every Invested Art - famously Surgebinding doesn't reach for kinetic investiture from SR, it uses what's in the PR instead. Similarly Dor on Sel comes from CR. Breaths too, they are a gift existing mainly in the PR, while being attached to a soul. But you might be referring to how the magic (innate investiture) gets to a person and that always involves a soul - in most cases it needs to get through cracks in one's soul, but things like bonds can allow to bypass that requirement. That's how Allomancy is granted, that's how Hemalurgy works, how Surgebinding is given etc - it all comes through a soul. Spoiler AndrewStirlingMacDonald (paraphrased) Is being a little bit crazy a prerequisite to becoming a Knight Radiant? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Well, so, for many of the cosmere magics to work, you have to... it has to get into the soul somehow. Right? Sometimes you ram it in by spiking someone else's soul and ripping off a piece and sticking it into yours. Sometimes, it just seeps in the cracks. Sometimes the bond allows it to kind of bypass some of this, but it's usually traumatic experience. So crazy is not required, but there's got to be a place for the magic to go, to get in. Shadows of Self Boston signing (Oct. 14, 2015) 13 hours ago, Confused said: This WoB highlights the similar idea of “natural pathways,” which seems to refer to pre-programmed magical templates: This WoB talks about how an invested art comes to be - it's not about kinetic investiture, it's how Allomancy became Allomancy specifically. Invested Arts are mortal manifestations of powers of creation. That's the pathway the WoB is talking about. Spoiler Kaimipono Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies? Brandon Sanderson The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms. Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.) So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) 13 hours ago, Confused said: Here’s a chart of my uncertain choices about Shard features. I don’t know enough about the unincluded Shards to comment on them. This chart is highly speculative. I use the “old” word “Focus” rather than the current word “Command” to put the “focus” on the substance or action that accompanies/is part of the Command. Explanations (rationalizations?) follow. I really don't understand this table, or rather its labels. If focus is meant to mean a Command, like in Awakening, then Splinters are 100% not a focus at all. Not everywhere Command is needed and in Surgebinding Intent is enough. Gemstones might be the focus you're looking for, but this only applies to certain Surges - for example Soulcasting needs specific gemstones, depending on which essence you want. Spoiler Argent With Intent and Command, I've been thinking about how these things would apply to other worlds. On Nalthis they seem kind of folded together into the same thing, but I can't crack the metals on Scadrial and the Aons in Elantris. Because the Aons seem very Command-y, not very Intent-y, right? What about the metals? Brandon Sanderson The Aons, you should be able to eventually figure it out. With the metals, when I wrap this in, it's going to be very slight, and you shouldn't assume that every one of the permutations of the cosmere magics are going to require the same levels of... I need the freedom on each one. So Intent and Command can't be a major feature of every magic, otherwise it's too restrictive. You're going to end up with too many that feel the same. You can imagine, on Scadrial, that different metals would not have had to do what they do in the origin of the magic system. That is not necessarily innate, that is relating to the creation of the magic. Argent How it was built manually, almost, by a Shard? Brandon Sanderson Does that make sense? You can imagine an in-cosmere magic system that is very similar to Allomancy, where each of the metals do a different thing than is in Allomancy. Footnote: While the question was being asked, Brandon was nodding the entire time until he first spoke. JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021) Spoiler Chaos In Dawnshard we learned that Intent and Command are two different things, whereas in Warbreaker Vasher is clearly conflating these two into just saying it's the Command. What's the difference between Intent and Command? Brandon Sanderson Intent encompasses more understanding. Command is specifically narrow. A lot of times, these things are gonna be conflated, because they basically can be. Like, if Vasher creates an awakened thing and says "go get me those keys." The Intent is: "I need the keys to get outta here. I want to be free." The Command is: "Go fetch keys." Those are two different things, but they are working toward the same goal. It is important in cosmere terms that the Intent is understood, even if sometimes the words that can speak 'em are clunky and smaller in scale by nature than the Intent. Let's say the Intent of a Shard encompasses more than the word that the Shard is described by. It's a similar thing that the Intent of a Command is often vaster than the actual words spoken. And the magic can grasp the Intent, not just the Command, depending on the magic system and how good you are at it, and things like that. The words are there to focus Intent. How about that? Chaos Bringing the old word "focus" back into it. Let's talk about body focuses; what's going on there? (That's a joke.) Brandon Sanderson I'll throw you a kernel on that one in the fifth book if you watch for it. That old Rosharan philosophy will actually be relevant for a small thing happening in the fifth book. Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021) Spoiler Questioner Are gemstones the focus of Surgebinding? Brandon Sanderson Define how you mean focus in this conversation. Questioner The definition you gave me of focus a few years ago was... You said that the Commands were the focus for Awakening, you said and Aons were focuss for AonDor, and metals are the focus for the Metallic Arts... and you haven't given us a proper definition. Brandon Sanderson RAFO. SpoCon 2013 (July 10, 2013) 14 hours ago, Confused said: A finite number of Lerasium beads is responsible for all Allomancers. Not true, Mistsnapping was the main way for Preservation to create Allomancers for millennia. Moreover every Scadrian have seeds of Allomancy in them due to the Preservation's fragment in their soul, they are capable of "randomly" becoming an Allomancer without Mists/Lerasium - but that's very rare: Spoiler Comatose So here's my last question. If there ARE people on the other side of the world, did Vin kill them all by placing the sun on their side, or do they have they're own Ruin/Preservation battle going on over there as well? Do they also have allomancy feruchemy and hemalurgy? Brandon Sanderson No, they're not dead. Yes, Rashek was aware of them. In fact, he placed them there as a reserve. I knew he wanted a 'control' group of people in case his changes to genetics ended with the race being in serious trouble. All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created. And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them—though without anyone among them having burned Lerasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) 14 hours ago, Confused said: Brandon confirms Ruin is the “Entropy Shard” (same WoB as Preservation’s). I don’t know what Ruin’s pathway is, but like Preservation’s it may be metal. I largely base that guess on the fact that Nightblood is steel yet doesn’t Focus any Allomantic, Hemalurgic, or Feruchemical abilities (to our knowledge). I believe metal is also Ruin’s Focus, like it is Preservation’s, since metal Focuses both Hemalurgy and Feruchemy. While Hemalurgic bind points matter too, the Ruinous (entropic) act that accesses Investiture is shattering the transferor’s body, Focused by the spike’s material. If by pathway you mean ways of obtaining kinetic investiture, then burning metals grant you power from Ruin, if you mean ways of obtaining innate investiture (power itself) than cracks in the soul made by spikes and filled with investiture from that spike. Nightblood and his steel is not a consequence of Metallic Arts. Whenever you see that something is made out of metal and it reacts to raw investiture (like Nightblood, fabrials etc) it's not because of Metallic Arts, it because they both are based on the same thing - metals in Cosmere have a spiritual property that existed long before Scadrial was made. Allomancy simply uses those pre-existing properties, or rather it's bound by those properties and that's why we can see those similarities. To add more, at this point Nightblood is more like a god metal rather than steel - he's pure investiture that pierces all realms. Spoiler Questioner Quick question on aluminum. Why does it affect other forms of Investiture? Brandon Sanderson When I was building the cosmere, I just had to build certain themes into it, and metal was one of those. And the metals have kind of a Spiritual integrity, and Spiritual component, that if I can get into Dragonsteel explaining why, you'll get your kind of origins. Questioner And that's why, in Warbreaker, metals are different with Awakening, and stuff. Brandon Sanderson And even in Roshar, the cages that you're building for fabrials, once you start to figure out how those metals affect it, you'll be like, "Oh wait, that makes sense!" And these are just across the cosmere. And if you want an in-world answer, it has to do with stuff in Dragonsteel. But really, the answer is, I was building this and I'm like, "I just want this to be a theme. So I'm just going to give this Spiritual component to metals." So it works in Mistborn, and it works all across everything. LTUE 2020 (Feb. 15, 2020) Spoiler Kael_the_Adventurer Did Nightblood's Awakening transform it into a God Metal? Brandon Sanderson *hesitant* Yes, you could say that. Adam Horne Was that a permanent change, or was that just while... Brandon Sanderson You can argue that Nightblood is a God Metal. Is he? You could argue otherwise as well. How about that? YouTube Spoiler Stream 4 (June 16, 2022) Spoiler Chaos Is atium Invested? Brandon Sanderson Is atium Invested? Atium is Investiture distilled into the Physical Realm, right? So is electricity electric? Or is it-- Chaos Well I think the question Sharders had was if it's Invested, how can people Push and Pull on it. That was the struggle. Brandon Sanderson Atium breaks a lot of rules, in the same way that you will see other things break rules. Atium plays weirdly. When you get distilled Investiture, you're starting like-- My kind of rule for myself is it's kind of like when you start going on the quantum level, the rules just start playing weirdly. Because it's like, what Realm does atium exist in-- is another thing. Because-- Pure Investiture like that is like a mini black hole, right? It's like existing in three Realms at once. Kind of, and things like that... There's lots of weirdness. The writerly answer is there is lots of weirdness because when I built atium, I didn't have the rest of the cosmere built, right? And so it breaks a lot of rules that I later set up that everything else has to follow, right? So the writerly answer is we just have to accept that atium and lerasium and some of these other distilled Investiture things are going to play very weirdly with the magic systems. But that's okay. Nightblood will too, and some of these things that were built even after the cosmere was coming together. Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017) 14 hours ago, Confused said: I believe Cultivation is the “Transformation Shard.” Her magic users access Investiture by converting matter and/or energy into Investiture, like Lift does. Cultivation’s magic represents the cosmere’s first law of thermodynamics. Cultivation confirms to Dalinar that “life” is her pathway: Quote "I CONTROL ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN, NURTURED." (OB, Chapter 114, Kindle p. 1079.) Because the Shard’s “natural pathway” is lifeforms, I believe Transformation expresses itself as Evolution. How is "lifeforms" a pathway? 14 hours ago, Confused said: Honor’s and Odium’s magic oppose each other – one bonds and one breaks. Autonomy is what you're looking for: Spoiler Nashan'Elin (paraphrased) Could Honor and Autonomy be considered opposites, like, Autonomy freeing from Honor's oaths? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes, you could definitely think of it that way. Those two are more likely to be opposed than some others. Calamity Denver signing (Feb. 19, 2016) 14 hours ago, Confused said: The control test should be the Honorblades, which are pure Honor Splinters. Yet anyone can use a Blade, including Szeth, other Shin, even Vyre. The reason anyone can use Blades, I speculate, is that Honor’s now dead and can’t “chain” – throttle – his pathway to the Blades. Without Honor’s Vessel at one end of the pathway, there’s no mutuality between Honor and the Bladeholder. Honor’s death made Ishar an “unchained” Bondsmith. (This analysis presumes the Heralds made some promise or oath to Honor about the Blades, the reason why Ishar’s now unchained.) Everyone can use Honorblades because they are a mechanical way of accessing Invested Arts. They are like Malwish Medallion, they have an identity of their own, they are a little self aware - they are machines that grant you powers. Their bond isn't as deep as the Radiant bond. This isn't related to Honor's death at all, in fact Shins used Honorblades and Surges in their numerous invasions of Roshar in a distant past. Spoiler Questioner Do Honorblades bestow their abilities similar to an Identity-free nicrosilmind with other Metalborn abilities? Brandon Sanderson Yeah, these are working on similar principles. Same principle, divergent applications by the magic system, but yeah, I would say, they come back to the same principles. Orem signing (March 10, 2018) Spoiler Raddatatta In Era 1, Sazed says the only thing you can Feruchemically store while sleeping is wakefulness, but in Era 2 they have the sky ships that require everyone to be storing weight to fly and they don't land while people sleep. Was Sazed just wrong, or is that a difference between normal Feruchemy and using the unsealed metalminds? Brandon Sanderson Unsealed metalminds, I am moving toward complete—you probably already guessed this—mechanical uses of Investiture, and this indeed is a step toward that. And so we are stepping toward having a little machine that gives you powers. That's what the world wants to try to find. And this is—this being mechanical—we'll just say that the medallions and the things that they're building have more of a life-force, more of an Identity of their own than a traditional metalmind does, even though they're unkeyed and all of this stuff. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) Spoiler Zykai (paraphrased) Did the Shin use Honorblades in their invasions? If yes, did they also use Surges? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Yes and yes. Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019) The chains you refer to aren't about Honorblades, they are about all Surges - most importantly Bondsmithing. After the destruction of Ashyn, Honor restricted the use of Surges on Roshar to prevent another disaster like this. This made Surgebindiers chained, especially Bondsmiths. Dalinar is also Unchained now. Ishar is also Unbounded - he has no bond with any spren, which would place "moral restrictions" on the use of his powers. RoW ch 66: Quote The power of Bondsmiths was tempered by Honor, for the good of all. Ever since the destruction of Ashyn. RoW ch 111: Quote The powers of a Bondsmith are the powers of creation, the Stormfather said. The powers of gods, including the ability to link souls. Always before, Honor was here to guard this power, to limit it. It seems that Ishar knows how to make full use of his new freedom. Also keep in mind that we haven't seen a pure Honor's invested art - Surgebinding is of both Honor and Cultivation. Whatever Lift or Renarin is doing are also a form of combination of magics from different Shards. It's hard to speculate what a pure magic of Honor/Cultivation looks like because there won't be a clear division like we see on Scadrial. Spoiler Crspu Is there going to be a magic system for every Shard? Brandon Sanderson Uh, yes, whether there'll be books? We get into a problem here... is... what is a magic system, right? So for instance like, would you count all of Surgebinding as one magic system, or is it ten magic systems, right? Is Windrunning a separate magic system from Skybreaking. Right, and is it the Surges? Is it that? What do you call a magic system? Is the system of fabrials a magic system, or is it a subset of what's happening on Roshar? And in that case, it's like I delineated it pretty strongly in Mistborn, but in Stormlight, it's like... kind of Surgebinding is kind of Honor and Cultivation, right? And so is there a magic system for each of them or not? So the answer is yes and no, in that every one of the Shards will inspire really interesting magic systems. But is there a one to one? What do you call a magic system? And beyond that, will I have time to write books about all of these, I don't know. You could even look at Sel. Sel has how many magic systems, is it one? Is it lots? Is Forging a different magic system from AonDor, or is it two aspects of the same magic system and so... It's tricky. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) There is a "mostly" Cultivation based magic system on Ashyn, which works by contracting diseases that give you powers as long as you're ill. How it works, we don't know yet, but it's similar to a Nahel Bond (or Aviars, they get their powers from a symbiotic bond between them and invested worms). This also means that the bond itself isn't only of Honor, it's just a nature of Cosmere (Allomancy is also a bond, 3rd WoB in this post). Spoiler Questioner You have talked about writing a book about Ashyn, the first planet in the Rosharan system. You said that they have a magic system based on disease, but they are currently without a Shard. Can you tell us what the source of that magic system is? Brandon Sanderson A lot of the magic systems in the cosmere, I kind of in my head differentiate kind of the primary worlds and the secondary worlds. And even on the secondary worlds, there is magic. And any place that a Shard has been in presence is gonna leave behind an aftereffect, but it's not always that. I would call most of the magic on Ashyn Cultivation-based, most likely. And Cultivation's in the system, but has only briefly been to that planet. But it doesn't mean that... basically, it's kind of the level of Investiture. If you go to Scadrial, on Scadrial, you're gonna have a high percentage of the population, cosmereologically, that are gonna have access to one of the Hemalurgic [Metallic] arts, right? Same thing on Roshar. And indeed, the people are going to be Invested on a level that is beyond the others. This is my in-world canon reason that people just don't come down with colds very often or have tooth decay very often, and things like that. On the primary Shardworlds, we're talking about people who are just naturally, highly Invested. All the other worlds, though, you're still gonna have the occasional pop-up of magic, here and there. You're still gonna have effects of being in the cosmere, and things like that. Just much smaller chances. And the magic's probably going to be less likely to be planet-destroying potential, and things like that, like happened on Ashyn. Dragonsteel Mini-Con 2021 (Nov. 23, 2021) Spoiler Vanahian Brandon has said that the Ashynite disease-based magic was related with the Old Magic. Did he mean it in a direct way? Like this magic from Ashyn was a branch or a variety of the Old Magic system? Brandon Sanderson I do have to RAFO this, for the most part. Suffice it to say that the disease magic is related to a symbiotic bond between spren-like Investiture and microorganisms. General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 24, 2020) Spoiler JoyBlu Okay, A larkin and an aviar. Could you tell us how they're related - are they a bit similar? Other than that they both fly. Brandon Sanderson I would not call them terribly similar. A larkin is a specific type of creature that feeds off of Investiture. And there are some other things like that in the Cosmere. But aviar don't do that. Aviar have a symbiosis with an Invested entity. Aviar are more like, they're kind of weird because they fulfill both the role of a spren, but also the person that's bonding the spren. They're an intermediary. JoyBlu Okay. And larkins don't have feathers, right? Brandon Sanderson Larkins do not have feathers. They look like little... They look like wasps. JoyBlu Like wasps? That little? Brandon Sanderson No, not that size, but that's the look of them. They're in the picture in the front of Way of Kings, the magic map. If we have Way of Kings here... We can grab it for you. If you go to my website for the art for Way of Kings, look up "Way of Kings art archive" on my website. It's not the cover, it's on the magic, the double eye symbol of the Knights Radiant in the inside cover flap. There's a pair of larkin there. Orem Signing (March 16, 2019) 14 hours ago, Confused said: I believe Autonomy is the “Fractal Shard.” Avatars are the best examples of Autonomy’s fractals. I think each Sand Master’s sand ribbon separately accesses Investiture from a different Autonomy Splinter, a discrete “autonomous” fractal Avatars aren't Splinters. Spoiler Alex M What's the difference between avatar and Splinter? Brandon Sanderson These are all very weird terms that I'm just using. *mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing. An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do. Brandon Sanderson *realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies* A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) We know of 4 Avatars of Autonomy, 2 of them are from different planets, which were created there using local Autonomy investiture already present in the system. Some Sand Masters can have up to 20 sand ribbons - they can't access investiture from different Avatars, from different words. It's all from Taldain and Autonomy, or at least one of her Avatars on Taldain. 14 hours ago, Confused said: Though Autonomy delivers Investiture to Taldain from its sun, I believe water is Autonomy’s pathway. At least accessing kinetic investiture, that's most likely a Luhel Bond - it works the same as Aethers and in Tress it was mentioned another spores exists, which are white-black - like White Sand. 14 hours ago, Confused said: I believe a weak form of cognitive water bond also exists on the Patji Archipelago, a known Autonomy Avatar built from the ocean floor. Both land and sea predators there (IMO) hunt their prey through a temporary water bond, stronger in the ocean than the “deep humidity” of the island. It's 100% not like that. No water is required to use Aviar, it's a bond, similar to a Nahel Bond. Spoiler Ethour Would an Aviar be capable of a spren bond? Brandon Sanderson What they do is the same thing, by cosmere terms. It is not as powerful; because of that it is easier to shift between people. What you gain is not as strong, but you also gain flexibility. But it would be, cosmerologically, considered the same thing. Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018) 14 hours ago, Confused said: Roshar holds a “gathering” of Autonomy’s post-Shattering “assigned Investiture.” I believe much of that Investiture built the Rosharan pangaea, a Julia Set fractal raised from the sea floor. Roshar predates the Shattering, thus Autonomy. Roshar was created directly by Adonalsium. As for Patji, we don't know if the island existed before Autonomy created her Avatar (most likely), but it doesn't mean that the island was made entirely out of Autonomy's investiture, more like Autonomy invested already existing island with her investiture present in the system, giving it sapience. Similarly Telsin wasn't made out of Autonomy's investiture at first, she was a normal Scadrian, with Ruin and Preservation's power in her, then she became invested with Autonomy's investiture and Ascended as an Avatar. I see no reason why Rosharan continent would be made out of Autonomy's investiture specifically. 15 hours ago, Confused said: I think Endowment is the “Quantum Shard.” I don't know how you get to this, or what it even means. Endowment is all about giving with no strings attached. Spoiler Badger1289 If Investiture can’t be moved beyond a certain point away from its world/solar system, how in the Cosmere did three Awakeners end up on Roshar? Brandon Sanderson Investiture from different systems acts in different ways. Certain people have managed, for example, to get some kinds of Investiture to leave their home world through the use of a kind of magical pipeline. Breaths attach to the identity of the individual, and are fully given away--freely, which removes some of this Connection. It's a nature of Endowment that the gift is given without strings attached, so to speak. But while it's a renewable resource, it's a difficult one. Roshar is extra "sticky" so to speak with Investiture. It's part of the nature of Honor, Cultivation, and oaths. So getting it off is a problem, though collecting it is not. Echono Wouldn't consuming it also be a problem? You need a direct or secondary Bond to take in Stormlight Investiture. It's not like metals or Breaths that anyone could absorb. Although a certain grouchy ardent might have found a way... Brandon Sanderson You are right in that Stormlight is more being seen as a power source, since certain systems in the cosmere can work on a variety of different kinds. Not just anyone could make use of it, at least not unless it is refined. Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 8, 2020) 15 hours ago, Confused said: Breaths are the cosmere’s sole, pre-packaged quantum of Investiture. Not true, everyone in Cosmere has innate investiture like Breaths. Nalthians aren't even the only one that can freely give up their innate investiture - Threndites from Canticle can do the same. Spoiler Questioner On all the cosmere worlds, it seem as if-- do all the humans have what you call innate Investiture? Brandon Sanderson Let's see... *thinks* I believe that they all do. I don't think that you've seen anyone without innate Investiture yet. Questioner Because when they don't have Breath anymore, they would get Drabs, and those don't have innate Investiture? Brandon Sanderson They don't have innate Investiture. And on Scadrial they have the pieces of Ruin and Preservation in them. And they do have it on Roshar. Questioner Which Shard is that? Brandon Sanderson You'll have to read and find out. *gives card* So yes, I don't think you've seen any worlds where they don't. Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014) Spoiler KingSloth Doesn't all 'extra' investiture require a cracked soul? How are Nalthians born with extra breath, if so? Brandon Sanderson No. The Scadrians have extra investiture too, on a lesser scale. /r/books AMA 2015 (June 8, 2015) 15 hours ago, Confused said: I believe Endowment’s pathway to power is Electromagnetic Radiation (EMR). I think Awakening can use any form of kinetic Investiture from any Shard and on any planet; but the Investiture must first be quantized to travel down an EMR pathway (like light) to the Awakener. Stormlight is light, travels like light but can't be used to Awaken just like that - something else has to be done first, the easiest way would be to change Stormlight into Breaths, which is hard. Spoiler Ilkhan2016 Breath and Stormlight are both forms of Investiture. AFAIK you can power any of the magic systems from any form of Investiture. Zahel is on Roshar, I believe, primarily due to how easy Investiture (Stormlight) is to come across. AFAIK the form of Investiture doesn't change anything about the abilities. For example, Szeth was sucked out of Stormlight when he drew Nightblood; and Azure used Stormlight to Awaken in Shadesmar. /u/mistborn is that right? Brandon Sanderson A lot of this depends on the Investiture and the magic in question. Azure was legit using Breaths, for example--ones she'd brought with her. But Szeth was able to feed Stormlight to Nightblood, much as Vasher uses Stormlight to keep himself alive. To Awaken with Stormlight, the easiest thing to do would be to first change Stormlight into Breaths--something that Azure doesn't know how to do. (Admittedly, Hoid doesn't either, so it's not like it's a simple thing to achieve.) You could also theoretically use some magical (or mechanical) means to power your Awakening with a different form of Investiture. Extesian This is very interesting. Is it possible then in the Cosmere for the 'intent' (spin or however described) of Investiture to be changed? And I mean within reasonable limits (not the powers of six shards or any of that). Can a Shard effectively grow in power in a place (e.g. toward an avatar) through another Shard's Investiture being changed (not just corrupted)? Or is it just making one type ('intent' - you should canonize a word for this :D) of Investiture mimic the properties of another? Brandon Sanderson Most of the ways of accomplishing what you're talking about would involve either 1) fooling/overwriting your spiritual makeup somehow. (This is what Hemalurgy does, for example.) 2) Refining the power somehow into a more pure form. But there are a lot of variables. The way magic from Nalthis works, for example, the system is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself--and so basically anything will do, regardless of the source. This includes consuming your own soul, in some cases... You'll see terminology coming along eventually that facilitates talking about all of this. I'm not yet decided on some of it. Celestial_Blu3 How many Breaths does [Azure] have by her final appearance in OB? Brandon Sanderson That's a RAFO, I'm afraid. General Reddit 2019 (April 25, 2019) Moreover kinetic investiture doesn't seem to be involved that much in Awakening. Breaths themselves are changing between static, kinetic and innate investiture, there is no additional power coming from anywhere. Breaths are innate investiture, they turn to kinetic when given a Command and they move between hosts, then they turn to static/innate investiture while in an Awakened object (because Seekers can't detect that, Breaths in an Awakened object can't be kinetic - and it make sense, after all Breaths provide a soul to an object, which isn't kinetic). Divine Breaths turn kinetic when they are used for healing, they always turn kinetic - and that's why they are used up and can't be transferred. The power is already in the system, it's all about Breaths. Spoiler Questioner With spikes, would you be able to actually transfer Breaths, when they get to the other planets? Brandon Sanderson So spikes rip off pieces of the soul and so Breaths are not going to be part of the soul. You could maybe get a divine Breath but I haven't really decided on regular Breaths, they're kind of stuck there in the Physical Realm which is not a thing that spikes are dealing with. Divine Breath, potentially, because that's something that's actually melding onto your soul. But, you know, when you're using the Breaths they reach through to the Spiritual Realm so, maybe if you got it while the Breaths were kinetic, right, while you're using them, then you might be able to rip them off. I'm not a hundred percent certain on that one. Bystander There's still things to decide upon. Brandon Sanderson Yeah there's still things, like I have to kind of see. My instinct says no right now. But, you know, how they interact is not something that I have-- Yeah. Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015) Spoiler Questioner Would a Seeker know if something's endowed with Breath or if someone was holding it? Brandon Sanderson Seekers have a lot of trouble with just detecting Investiture that isn't being used in some way. They could catch Stormlight that you've breathed in, because it's starting to do stuff. If just something has Stormlight, like a gemstone or something like that... Questioner I meant from Warbreaker. If you'd endowed like, a large thing with that, could you see that? Brandon Sanderson Oh, something with Breath, could they find that with a Seeker. That's right. There are theoretical applications of this, but I would say your average Seeker, no. There is a way to get there but if you just took a Seeker from - and said do you - they would not be able to do that. DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019) Spoiler Extesian Can you give away a Divine Breath to another human? If so would they have the same powers as a Returned or would they just 'store' it like an inanimate object that Breath is stored in when not Awakened? Does a human require a 'crack' in their spirit web to receive a divine Breath? Brandon Sanderson So, a Divine Breath-- you're kind of going along the wrong direction on that line of reasoning. Divine Breaths cannot be transferred. When they are used they immediately become kinetic Investiture and are activated. This manifests normally as healing the person, both body, mind, and soul, but you can't give it up, transfer it in the same way you can regular Breaths. Skype Q&A (Oct. 8, 2018) 15 hours ago, Confused said: The basis for this theory is the idea that color is just the perception of reflected light. No, color is a spiritual property of an object. Draining colors to Awaken changes something in the spirit, which is reflected as a physical change in coloration. Spoiler tallakahath So, on Nalthis, in the Warbreaker universe, when the color's pulled out of something, is that a physical or chemical change or is that a perceptual change? Brandon Sanderson It is actually a physical change, but the spirit of the thing is changing, and it's filtering through to the Physical Realm. tallakahath So, if I do that on a carrot, I can break beta carotin? If I do that on a piece of metal, I can reduce it and charge my battery that way? Brandon Sanderson Potentially, yeah! Yeah, that would work, you're changing it's Spiritual nature. DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019) 15 hours ago, Confused said: On Nalthis, I speculate that Endowment Invests photons (light quanta) from the sun that are absorbed by objects on the planet. Like Sand Mastery with water and Allomancy with metal, Awakening ends when an object is fully drained of its “color” (or IMO its quantized Investiture). Lifeless would disagree. Their body is fully drained out of color and they still work! Awakening doesn't end when color is fully drained out of an object. You can Awaken gray/white objects as type 3 entities. Sun on Nalthis was never said or even suggested to be invested, instead we know that Tears of Edgli are invested and that's due to the fact that the whole valley and jungle, in which Hallandren is located, is invested because investiture is leaking from Endowment's perpendicularity and seeping into the ground, saturating it. But, while this makes Awakening more efficient by using dyes made out of Tears of Edgli, it's not required to use them - you can Awaken anywhere in Cosmere as long as you have some color and Breaths - we've seen Vasher Awakening in RoW. Spoiler Questioner Is there a similar relationship between Endowment and Hallandren's jungle as there is between Harmony and Elendel Basin ? Brandon Sanderson Yes and no. The flowers are being fed by something that's very similar to what you might find on other planets. So the ground is saturated with something that is having a similar effect as Elendel Basin. But it's not the same thing. Elendel Basin was just crafted really, really well, and then it was endowed with a little bit of extra oomph. Here [in Hallandren's jungle], we have this extra seeping into the ground from the pool, which is saturated around and causing the flowers and causing what's going on there. SpoCon 2013 (July 10, 2013) Spoiler EHyde I was curious about the dye in Hallandren, the Tears of Edgli. So, that can be used to make a whole bunch of different colors, right? Does the flower come in different colors? Or is that something in the dye process, or-? Brandon Sanderson The flower comes in different colors. EHyde And it dyes all fiber types the same? Brandon Sanderson It does not dye all fiber types the same. EHyde In theory, if they had synthetic fibers would it work on them? Brandon Sanderson I would say yes. EHyde Is it more fuel-efficient for Awakening? Brandon Sanderson Is what more-? EHyde Like, color used in Awakening-? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Those dyes are very effective for Awakening. Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014) 16 hours ago, Confused said: Speaking of wild speculation... I think Dominion and Devotion are, respectively, the “Potential Energy and Kinetic Energy Shards.” Yeah, that's wild. How does kinetic energy allow you to obtain Elantrian-ness? In Allomancy you get a gift, which allows you to Preserve yourself, in Hemalurgy to break souls to grant power, how does this work at all? And how's Devotion a Kinetic Energy Shard? That makes no sense. 15 hours ago, Confused said: Programming-type language based on local topography are the joint system’s Focus. It being based on geography is the result of Odium Splintering Devotion and Dominion and trapping their investiture in CR. It's not a focus of any Shard, it's just because where investiture is. 15 hours ago, Confused said: Raoden had to draw Aon Rao on the ground, not in the air, to restore Elantris. Because the whole city is an Aon, the modification needs to be placed when the original Aon was drawn - on the ground. 15 hours ago, Confused said: I speculate Sel’s magic users consume Investiture that leaches from the ground into the food chain. No, they use investiture from the Dor in the Cognitive Realm. When an Elantrian draws an Eon, it opens a conduit for investiture from the Cognitive Realm to flow through it, into the Physical Realm - just like metals in Allomancy, but there it goes from the Spiritual Realm instead. 1
Leuthie Posted July 29, 2024 Posted July 29, 2024 (edited) Quote Cultivation: I believe Cultivation is the “Transformation Shard.” Her magic users access Investiture by converting matter and/or energy into Investiture, like Lift does. Cultivation’s magic represents the cosmere’s first law of thermodynamics. Cultivation confirms to Dalinar that “life” is her pathway: "I CONTROL ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN, NURTURED." (OB, Chapter 114, Kindle p. 1079.) Because the Shard’s “natural pathway” is lifeforms, I believe Transformation expresses itself as Evolution. Cultivation's power is accessed through the nurturing and development of a relationship with a Spren, not through transformation. Or at least through a very specific type of transformation. The development (nurturing and growth) of the spren is her contribution to the Radiant system. The bond and oaths are Honor's. Edited July 29, 2024 by Leuthie
Confused Posted August 1, 2024 Author Posted August 1, 2024 (edited) Tremayne: Thank you for your response. You said, On 7/27/2024 at 4:49 PM, Treamayne said: Interesting theory, but I would note that you are missing a component of the base. The world on which the Shard has invested has an impact in how that MoI develops. I intended the OP to highlight one feature of magic systems, namely pathways to power. I did not intend the OP to describe a comprehensive theory of magic systems. For that, see my post, “A Comprehensive Theory of Magic Systems.” It includes this section: Quote The Role of Planets in Magic Systems [Theory] Brandon says a planet’s pre-Shattering magic (its “inherent Investiture”); the planet’s culture; and the local population’s sDNA all influence a planet’s magic systems. Most posters including me believe Focuses derive from the system’s planet. A Focus IMO substitutes for the mortal inability to think a magical effect into being (like Shards can). Besides “shaping the magic,” a Focus limits Investiture flow and prevents magic user vaporization. I think all three planetary influences contribute to that planet’s Focus. You also say, On 7/27/2024 at 4:49 PM, Treamayne said: Also, Focus and Command are not the same. A Focus can provide the "command" (Metals, Aons), but a Command will not be a focus for accessing investure (On Nalthis the Command tells breath what to do, but the breath does not come from the Command - Here focus is "Giving" and "breathing" and command is entirely separate). Errr, I misstated that sentence. What I tried to say is that Focus is a component of a Command, and I wanted to look at that component rather than the Command. A Focus “shapes” the Shard’s Investiture to perform the specific Intended magical act. A Windrunner, e.g., doesn’t need all of Honor’s/Cultivation’s Investiture, only that Investiture necessary to fly or adhere in the manner he Commands. Awakening’s Focus IS the Command – the more precisely the Awakener visualizes the Intended action, the more precisely and efficiently the animated object will perform the action: Quote Instead of requiring a lengthy Command to create a powerful Awakening, the strength and skill of the Awakener is instead determined by their ability to visualize what they want the Command to do. The Command is a focus, the spoken words an important part of the process, but the real trick is getting the right mental picture. Warbreaker Annotations, Chapter 21 A human-shaped object and human material seems to help with Investiture efficiency too. alder24: I’m responsible for some of the confusion about pathways. Rather than the term “kinetic Investiture,” I should say Investiture in the form of “magical kinetic energy,” the term I’ll use going forward in this post. This Investiture energizes a magical transaction. Pathways are the pipeline that carries magical kinetic energy from the Shard to a magic user. I hope that helps clarify. As I discuss later, I believe all magic including the end-neutral systems rely (mostly) on Spiritual Realm Investiture for energy. The Dual Nature of Shards I think our major differences come down to how we understand Shards and their magic systems. Brandon says Shards are Quote “primal forces [or fundamental laws] attached to certain aspects of personality.... [A] cultural component, I would say, that is trying to represent something that is also natural.” Source (March 2018). Most of my theories focus on the “primal force” aspect of Shards. The Vessel supplies personality, and the people of its Major Shardworld supply the “cultural component.” But the Shard as “primal force” is eternal and independent of the Vessel or local culture. Shard magical uniqueness IMO relies on its primal force. Magic users access Investiture through their Shard’s primal force. The Vessel interprets how to express that primal force but ultimately succumbs to it, as Ati and Tanavast did. IMO, metaphor supplies context and texture but ultimately has no magical significance, like the color of Roshar’s moons. I feel your analyses focus on the metaphoric, descriptive aspect of Vessel personality as expressed by their names. Preservation preserves, Endowment gives, etc. Their chosen names tell us something about the Vessels and their interpretation of the Shard but say little about how the Shard’s magic actually works. Understanding cosmere magic has been and remains my goal. I welcome discussion that leads to cosmere truth. I value new insights. My many mistakes leave me little pride about my own insightfulness. When someone criticizes my magical ideas, though, I insist they do so for mechanical, cosmere scientific reasons and not because my ideas don’t fit some metaphoric construct. Is Preservation the “Stasis Shard”? On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: Stasis? It's a gift granting you strength, giving you power, protecting you. It strengthens your soul, Preserving your life. I wouldn't call that stasis. Brandon specifically names “stasis” as Preservation’s “primal force.” The full 2018 WoB I quoted above may be Brandon’s most important statement about Shards: Quote Questioner Shards. We started with fairly obvious ones, magic wise. Trying to keep this spoiler free, so: Ruin, Preservation, this kind of thing. Then we get the weird ones. Why do we have Shards that can only exist in the mind of a sentient creature? ...Like the concept of Honor can only be done when it's carried out, essentially, by a sentient creature. Brandon Sanderson So when I split Adonalsium I said, "I'm going to take aspects of Adonalsium's nature." And this involves personality to me. So the Shattering of Adonalsium was primal forces attached to certain aspects of personality. And so I view every one of them this way. And when I wrote Mistborn we had Ruin and Preservation. They are the primal forces of entropy and whatever you call the opposite, staying-the-same-ism-y. Like, you've got these two contrasts, between things changing and things not changing. And then humans do have a part, there's a personality. Ruin is a charged term for something that actually is the way that life exists. And Preservation is a charged term for stasis, for staying the same. And those are the personality aspects, and the way they are viewed by people and by the entity that was Adonalsium. So I view this for all of them. Like, Honor is the sense of being bound by rules, even when those rules, you wouldn't have to be bound by. And there's this sense that that is noble, that's the honor aspect to it, but there's also something not honorable about Honor if taken from the other direction. So a lot of them do kind of have this both-- cultural component, I would say, that is trying to represent something that is also natural. And not all of them are gonna have a 100% balance between those two things, I would say, because there's only so many fundamental laws of the universe that I can ascribe personalities to in that way. So I find Honor very interesting, but I find Autonomy a very interesting one for the exact same reason. What does autonomy mean? We attach a lot to it, but what is the actual, if you get rid of the charged terms, what does it mean? And this is where you end up with things like Odium claiming "I am all emotion." Rather than-- But then there's a charged term for it that is associated with this Shard. I'm not going to tell you whether he's right or not, but he has an argument. Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018) [bold added]. Brandon’s clear that Preservation’s primal force is “stasis...staying the same,” the opposite of Ruin’s primal force of entropy. Mechanically, that should mean Preservation’s magic users access his Investiture through some Intended act of stasis. Is Allomancy Static? On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: Not true, Mistsnapping was the main way for Preservation to create Allomancers for millennia. Moreover every Scadrian have seeds of Allomancy in them due to the Preservation's fragment in their soul, they are capable of "randomly" becoming an Allomancer without Mists/Lerasium - but that's very rare: It IS true. The 20 Lerasium beads are the only pieces of Preservation’s god metal he distributed. “Random,” “very rare” theoretical occurrences don’t change the fact that the “Stasis Shard” created a finite set of beads to allocate among all Allomancers present and future. Preservation’s static role in Feruchemy is obvious. In that system, Preservation returns attributes to the status quo that existed before Ruin’s entropy turned those attributes into Investiture. The Feruchemist’s Intent to perform an act of stasis accesses Preservation’s Investiture, as we would expect. Unfortunately, Quote Brandon says Scadrial’s magic is not woven as tightly into the cosmere tapestry as later-revealed magic systems. It doesn’t quite fit the same rules and sometimes needs retconning (think savantism). ... Allomancy, to me, is the cosmere’s most problematic magic system. I don’t see anything “static” about Allomancy other than metal’s static molecular structure. Brandon’s claim Allomancy is a “gift” is specious – almost all magic systems likewise gift Spiritual Realm power to their magic user. A Comprehensive Magic Theory, Appendix Let me repeat that last point: Almost all magic systems likewise gift Spiritual Realm power to their magic user. Almost all of them, to paraphrase your words, “grant you strength, give you power, protect you, strengthen your soul, Preserve your life.” There’s nothing unusual or unique about Preservation in this respect. As you say, this is not “stasis” (except to the extent staying alive is stasis.) In addition to metal’s structure, the finite number of Lerasium beads also reflects Preservation’s static nature, since it freezes the aggregate amount of Allomantic sDNA. Overall, though, I agree with you that Allomancy doesn’t fit stasis especially well. Pathway is Pipeline for Kinetic Energy On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: That's not true for every Invested Art - famously Surgebinding doesn't reach for kinetic investiture from SR, it uses what's in the PR instead. Similarly Dor on Sel comes from CR. Breaths too, they are a gift existing mainly in the PR, while being attached to a soul. But you might be referring to how the magic (innate investiture) gets to a person and that always involves a soul - in most cases it needs to get through cracks in one's soul, but things like bonds can allow to bypass that requirement. That's how Allomancy is granted, that's how Hemalurgy works, how Surgebinding is given etc - it all comes through a soul. This is when I realized “kinetic Investiture” is the wrong term. “Investiture as kinetic energy” – “magical kinetic energy” – is more accurate. Pathways are the pipeline down which magical kinetic energy travels from Shard to magic user. Breaths are not magical kinetic energy though they can be consumed as such if necessary. Yes, the Dor is in the CR. I’m NOT addressing innate Investiture. Innate Investiture is what people are born with, like the spark of life or Feruchemical sDNA. The “cracks in one’s soul” allow additional Investiture in, which is necessary for magic system Initiation but doesn’t affect my pathways to power analysis. Comparison to “Natural Pathways” On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: This WoB talks about how an invested art comes to be - it's not about kinetic investiture, it's how Allomancy became Allomancy specifically. Invested Arts are mortal manifestations of powers of creation. That's the pathway the WoB is talking about. I disagree. This WoB seems to refer to pre-Shattering magical templates that Adonalsium created. The OP compares the “similar ideas” of “pathways to power” and “natural pathways.” I believe pathways were a feature of pre-Shattering magic. Among other things, Brandon says, Quote [T]here are certain natural pathways for them to create life. Which is my explanation for why life is so similar on all the different planets, is that they're following natural pathways, and these magics are kind of the same way. For instance, Lightweaving predates the Shattering of Adonalsium. A lot of these other things are suggestive of magics that existed before that were built around Adonalsium. Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018) (bold added). I think of natural pathways as the legacy components of pre-Shattering magic. Life-creation and the pre-Shattering magic systems followed “natural pathways” that Adonalsium created and still exist, modified somewhat by the Shards. Even pre-Shattering, Physical Realm manifestations of Spiritual Realm Investiture break Realmic barriers somehow. To me, it makes Realmic sense that magic systems might funnel Investiture through a pre-existing natural pathway other than perpendicularities. Focuses On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: I really don't understand this table, or rather its labels. If focus is meant to mean a Command, like in Awakening, then Splinters are 100% not a focus at all. Not everywhere Command is needed and in Surgebinding Intent is enough. Gemstones might be the focus you're looking for, but this only applies to certain Surges - for example Soulcasting needs specific gemstones, depending on which essence you want. I addressed this in my response to @Treamayne. Focuses are simply a nozzle, a way to restrict Investiture flow to avoid magic user vaporization (as Brandon mentions in a WoB you cite) and to shape the desired magical effect. Focuses are a component of the Command or, as with Awakening and Aons, coextensive with the Command. On Roshar, Splinters ARE the Focus, not the Command. Radiantspren Focus Honor’s and Cultivation’s Investiture. Not only do they limit the Investiture flow (as demonstrated by the Oaths), Radiantspren channel their own specific abilities. Kaladin still has to Command Syl to lash in the direction he wants, but Syl Focuses the Investiture flow. All magic on Roshar seems to come from, and is Focused by, Splinters: the Honorblades, the Unmade, natural spren (fabrials), voidspren, and Radiantspren. Ruin and Burning Metals On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: If by pathway you mean ways of obtaining kinetic investiture, then burning metals grant you power from Ruin, if you mean ways of obtaining innate investiture (power itself) than cracks in the soul made by spikes and filled with investiture from that spike. “Burning metals” does NOT “grant you power from Ruin.” Neither Hemalurgy nor Feruchemy involves burning metals. When you Hemalurgically spike Allomancy into someone, that person burns metal to perform the stolen Allomancy; but they access Preservation’s power, not Ruin’s. I’ve already discussed what innate Investiture is, and it isn’t “power itself” accessed through “cracks in the soul.” It’s the Investiture every person’s born with – “innate.” To become a magic user, a person needs the additional Investiture Initiation provides to fill those cracks. Lifeforms as Cultivation’s Pathway On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: How is "lifeforms" a pathway? First, because Cultivation SAYS her magic “CONTROLS ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN OR NURTURED.” I think Transformation – the conversion of matter and energy into Investiture – is the perfect primal force to evolve lifeforms. Out with the old, in with the new... The books (and Brandon) offer other evidence. Radiantspren convert Stormlight into their Surgebinding abilities. The bond simply allows their Radiant to Command the Radiantspren’s magic. Aviar eat Invested worms. They acquire abilities they share with humans through a cognitive bond. Brandon says Aviar are the magical “intermediary” (pathway) between the worms and people. Through a cognitive bond, Sand Masters Command Taldain’s microflora to manipulate sand. Ashyn’s Invested disease-carrying microbes fit as well. Brandon says “life” follows a “natural pathway” that pre-dates the Shattering. Honor’s Opposite Do you truly think Autonomy’s magic is “more opposite” Honor’s than is Odium’s magic? The WoB you cite reads like a typical Sander-hedge: “Yes, you could definitely think that way...[M]ore likely to be opposed than some others.” I get it: Honor binds and Autonomy supposedly wants freedom. But look at the OB, Chapter 109 scene I cite, where Odium breaks Dalinar’s vision: “Everything just...came apart.” (OB, Kindle p. 1025.) Dalinar binds the area around Venli and him. Mechanically, I think Odium breaks and Honor binds. Honorblades On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: Everyone can use Honorblades because they are a mechanical way of accessing Invested Arts. They are like Malwish Medallion, they have an identity of their own, they are a little self aware - they are machines that grant you powers. Their bond isn't as deep as the Radiant bond. This isn't related to Honor's death at all, in fact Shins used Honorblades and Surges in their numerous invasions of Roshar in a distant past. You got me! I’m wrong about Honorblades. (The OP shows I wasn’t really sold on the idea anyway). I guess each Blade, as a Splinter of Honor, is its own source of powers. But I still think Honor’s Investiture travels through some Connection like an oath or promise that establishes a mutual commitment between Honor and a magic user. Pure Honor Magic System On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: Also keep in mind that we haven't seen a pure Honor's invested art - Surgebinding is of both Honor and Cultivation. Honorblades are a “pure Honor’s invested art.” No other Shard’s Investiture is involved. Honor’s Investiture is capable of performing all magical abilities. This is what Brandon means when he says, “The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do,” and “The means of getting powers…are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves.” Relying exclusively on Honor for these abilities lowers Stormlight efficiency, but he can still power Surgebinding by himself. Radiant Bonds vs. Other Bonds On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: There is a "mostly" Cultivation based magic system on Ashyn, which works by contracting diseases that give you powers as long as you're ill. How it works, we don't know yet, but it's similar to a Nahel Bond (or Aviars, they get their powers from a symbiotic bond between them and invested worms). This also means that the bond itself isn't only of Honor, it's just a nature of Cosmere (Allomancy is also a bond, 3rd WoB in this post). [Bold added.] The bolded language raises an important point. Lots of systems involve bonds, including Aviar and Ashyn microbes. Unlike other bonds, Honor’s bonds alone give access to his Investiture. Unlike other bonds, Honor’s bonds are “the WAY the magic is obtained,” “the means of getting powers” described in the two immediately preceding WoBs. For example, humans may bond with Aviar to share Aviar magical abilities, but the Investiture comes through the ingested worms, not the human bond. Autonomy’s Avatars and Pathway On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: Avatars aren't Splinters. I didn’t say they were. I theorized each sand ribbon a Sand Master controls relies on a separate, “autonomous” Splinter of Autonomy that constitutes a fractal. Avatars are fractals but they’re not Splinters. I think Autonomy is the Fractal Shard in part because Avatars remain Connected to Autonomy. I wrote a detailed post about “Autonomy and Their Avatars: The Fractal Shard?” In it, I said, Quote Fractals are progressively smaller-scaled versions of the same pattern, all of which make one whole. Avatars seem smaller-scaled versions of Autonomy, and I speculate Autonomy’s magic (Sand Mastery and Aviar) relies on Splinters that are still smaller-scaled Autonomy versions. All remain “one whole,” since (a recent WoB suggests) Autonomy controls their Avatars through an inter-Connected mind. I said, “a weak form of cognitive water bond also exists on the Patji Archipelago between predators and prey.” You responded, “No water is required to use Aviar, it's a bond, similar to a Nahel Bond.” Again, I didn’t say water WAS necessary for an Aviar bond. But you can’t ignore that Autonomy builds massive rock structures from the ocean, grants Investiture to worms through Patji’s Eye, and requires Sand Masters to dehydrate in order to perform magic. Is this just coincidence? Assigned Investiture On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: Roshar predates the Shattering, thus Autonomy. Roshar was created directly by Adonalsium. As for Patji, we don't know if the island existed before Autonomy created her Avatar (most likely), but it doesn't mean that the island was made entirely out of Autonomy's investiture, more like Autonomy invested already existing island with her investiture present in the system, giving it sapience. I’m not sure what your point is. Brandon says this about “assigned Investiture” that pre-dates the Shattering: Quote I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard – because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time. ... Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time. [Source (2018).] Adonalsium did create Roshar. But Investiture of a “certain state, certain magnetism” was exclusively “assigned” to Autonomy at the Shattering. Investiture of different states and magnetisms were assigned to the other Shards. These “states and magnetisms” form the unique “primal force” of each Shard. Autonomy has looked for and found their Investiture on many planets including First of the Sun (Obradai), where the Avatar Patji resides. This Investiture is “associated with [Autonomy] (in the very fabric of matter and existence).” And Autonomy “tweaks, influences, and does things” to that Investiture, sometimes giving it sapience. On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: I see no reason why Rosharan continent would be made out of Autonomy's investiture specifically. The prior WoB confirms there’s a “gathering of [Autonomy’s] Investiture” on Roshar. That phrasing suggests the amount of Autonomy’s Investiture is substantial. We also know the Roshar pangaea is a Julia Set fractal. I don’t mean to suggest Autonomy is the only Investiture comprising the Rosharan pangaea. Obviously, many Investitures go into any complex undertaking like continent-raising. But the factors I mention in my Autonomy post make me believe Autonomy’s magic users access Investiture through fractals; and water is the pathway Autonomy uses to deliver that Investiture. Is Endowment the “Quantum Shard? On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: I don't know how you get to this, or what it even means. Endowment is all about giving with no strings attached. Again, I feel you lean too hard on metaphor and not hard enough on mechanics. Yes, Endowment gives. In my “Business Plan for Monetizing Breaths” post, I cite Brandon’s statement that Endowment wishes to encourage the growth of the Nalthian Breath market. She wants to help people. “Endowment” is a nice metaphor for Edgli’s kind personality. But mechanically how does Endowment give magic users access to her Investiture? What primal force do YOU think might be associated with the cosmere’s sole pre-packaged QUANTUM of Investiture? Why is light (color) so integral to Awakening? Oh, look! Light is made of QUANTA of electromagnetic radiation. Why can a magic user Awaken objects everywhere in the cosmere? Because they can use any Investiture to animate the target object. BUT – only if that Investiture is in quantum form and can travel an EMR pathway (IMO). Why can’t Awakeners use Stormlight to Awaken objects? I think Stormlight is not naturally in quantum form even if it manifests as light. IMO, Breath cannot process non-quantized Investiture when it Awakens objects. Yes, this is all conjecture, but do YOU have a better idea? When I stated Breath are the only pre-made quantum of Investiture, you said, On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: Not true, everyone in Cosmere has innate investiture like Breaths. Nalthians aren't even the only one that can freely give up their innate investiture - Threndites from Canticle can do the same. It’s irrelevant (for this purpose) that Breaths are a form of Innate Investiture. But each Breath is also a quantum of Investiture – the smallest usable unit of Investiture. Heightenings are possible because all Breaths are the same size (more or less). As quanta, each Breath is indivisible. A Breath holder must burn a whole Breath for kinetic energy, which magically (and financially) can be very expensive. On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: Stormlight is light, travels like light but can't be used to Awaken just like that - something else has to be done first, the easiest way would be to change Stormlight into Breaths, which is hard. Congratulations! You may have quoted the single most disagreed with WoB in history. If you go back to the 17th Shard topics at the time, you will find near-universal dismay and disagreement. This WoB would overturn everything we thought we knew about the cosmere. It would mean Shards could change each other’s Investiture into their own. It would upset the 16-Shard balance. It would mean Odium could freely take up Devotion and Dominion’s Investiture instead of pushing it into the CR. It’s just WRONG. Investiture Energizes EVERY Magical Transaction, Including End-Neutral Magic On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: Moreover kinetic investiture doesn't seem to be involved that much in Awakening. Breaths themselves are changing between static, kinetic and innate investiture, there is no additional power coming from anywhere. Breaths are innate investiture, they turn to kinetic when given a Command and they move between hosts, then they turn to static/innate investiture while in an Awakened object (because Seekers can't detect that, Breaths in an Awakened object can't be kinetic - and it make sense, after all Breaths provide a soul to an object, which isn't kinetic). Divine Breaths turn kinetic when they are used for healing, they always turn kinetic - and that's why they are used up and can't be transferred. The power is already in the system, it's all about Breaths. [Bold added.] I agree with everything you say after the bolded phrase and before the last sentence. Contrary to the bolded statement, there IS “additional power” coming from the Spiritual Realm to facilitate the magic. IMO, thermodynamic principles are key to understanding magic system mechanics. I think the following WoB is Brandon’s most important statement on the subject. He confirms that even “end-neutral” magic systems like Feruchemy and Breaths use Spiritual Realm Investiture to energize the magical transaction. He calls that Investiture “a facilitating power”: Quote Questioner So for the Old Magic, in this classification system of end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative, where would that fall under? Brandon Sanderson So, almost every magic in the cosmere is end-positive, almost every magic is relying upon an external source of Investiture to power it. So that phrasing is mostly more relevant to Scadrial than anywhere else, because that concept is how I'm dealing with things like the laws of thermodynamics, and even what they call end-neutral is relying a little bit on the power of Investiture to facilitate. So even an end-neutral magic system as they define it on Scadrial is actually not end-neutral. What you get put in you get out, but the power is facilitating that transfer… So that phrasing is kind of a... Take that as a science on.. Scadrial that does not extrapolate well, and may not even be 100% accurate. Moderator That would have been a great thing to know before we did the cosmere magic panel. *laughter* Brandon Sanderson I look at it as, is an Investiture externally powering the magic, and if you look at Allomancy, yes it is. You are drawing that power out. Feruchemy, you are putting Investiture in from your own body, it's your energy transferring to Investiture, which is being stored, which you are then drawing out, and things like that. But that changing forms is facilitated by the magic. Whereas you're stealing stuff with-- So you could look, for instance at the magic on Nalthis, you could look at that one as being-- as kind of working as end-negative, meaning "I am taking it away from someone else", or end-positive depending on if you're the one receiving it or not. So again, it's a phrasing that can be useful as a tool but doesn't scale well to the other magics. JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016) [Bold added.] If Spiritual Realm Investiture didn’t energize magical transactions, the cosmere would be a thermodynamically unsound perpetual motion machine. Investiture forms the Spiritual aspects of everything in the cosmere. As the cosmere grows and adds Spiritwebs, freely available Investiture should theoretically decrease. Eternal, energy-free magic would reverse this entropic outcome. As I've discussed elsewhere, when Brandon says Investiture is "infinite, he does not mean "limitless." Instead, IMO, he means "incalculably vast" though limited. That's another definition of "infinite." I believe Awakening does rely on “a facilitating power.” If not for magical energy, what purpose would ”color draining” have? Awakeners do not (generally) cannibalize Breaths for animating energy. Awakening, Color, and Investiture On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: No, color is a spiritual property of an object. Draining colors to Awaken changes something in the spirit, which is reflected as a physical change in coloration. I agree that “Draining colors to Awaken changes something in the spirit.” IMO that “something” is stripping the colored object of Investiture and turning it gray (or white). On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: [W]e know that Tears of Edgli are invested and that's due to the fact that the whole valley and jungle, in which Hallandren is located, is invested because investiture is leaking from Endowment's perpendicularity and seeping into the ground, saturating it. But, while this makes Awakening more efficient by using dyes made out of Tears of Edgli, it's not required to use them... Exactly! While not necessary for Awakening, objects dyed from the Tears of Edgli are more efficient. Why? Because they are more heavily saturated with Investiture. Draining such objects gives you more wood to burn, so to speak. Selish Magic On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: How does kinetic energy allow you to obtain Elantrian-ness? In Allomancy you get a gift, which allows you to Preserve yourself, in Hemalurgy to break souls to grant power, how does this work at all? And how's Devotion a Kinetic Energy Shard? That makes no sense. Kinetic energy, bottled up by the broken AonRao, has everything to do with turned a ruined city into Elantris again and turning the Shaod into full-blown Elantrians. The Dor, in the form of kinetic energy, flowed through the repaired Aon into Elantris and Elantrians. On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: [Sel’s magic] being based on geography is the result of Odium Splintering Devotion and Dominion and trapping their investiture in CR. It's not a focus of any Shard, it's just because where investiture is. Sel’s magic has always been based on topography. Splintering Sel’s Shards wouldn’t change that on Sel anymore than Splintering Honor changed Surgebinding on Roshar. By putting Devotion’s and Dominion’s Investiture into the CR, Odium’s Splintering changed one topographically based system into many. Brandon confirms that topographically based Aons are AonDor’s Focus, the “nozzle” through which the Dor passes. On 7/28/2024 at 7:16 AM, alder24 said: Because the whole city is an Aon, the modification needs to be placed when the original Aon was drawn - on the ground. You agree with me! A good place to end... C. Edited August 2, 2024 by Confused 1
Treamayne Posted August 2, 2024 Posted August 2, 2024 56 minutes ago, Confused said: What I tried to say is that Focus is a component of a Command, and I wanted to look at that component rather than the Command. A Focus “shapes” the Shard’s Investiture to perform the specific Intended magical act. A Windrunner, e.g., doesn’t need all of Honor’s/Cultivation’s Investiture, only that Investiture necessary to fly or adhere in the manner he Commands. Awakening’s Focus IS the Command – the more precisely the Awakener visualizes the Intended action, the more precisely and efficiently the animated object will perform the action: Spoiler 56 minutes ago, Confused said: Instead of requiring a lengthy Command to create a powerful Awakening, the strength and skill of the Awakener is instead determined by their ability to visualize what they want the Command to do. The Command is a focus, the spoken words an important part of the process, but the real trick is getting the right mental picture. Warbreaker Annotations, Chapter 21 Sorry, I feel like you either did not finish reading my post, or you are misunderstanding. Focus is not part of a Command (see the references in my previous post) - rither Focus and Command are like two circles in a Venn Diagram - They may overlap each other but there are Foci that are not commands (Vasher using his eyelash as a unibrow on the strawman) and there are Commands that are not Foci (Fuzz's use of Survive). Spoiler Chaos In Dawnshard we learned that Intent and Command are two different things, whereas in Warbreaker Vasher is clearly conflating these two into just saying it's the Command. What's the difference between Intent and Command? Brandon Sanderson Intent encompasses more understanding. Command is specifically narrow. A lot of times, these things are gonna be conflated, because they basically can be. Like, if Vasher creates an awakened thing and says "go get me those keys." The Intent is: "I need the keys to get outta here. I want to be free." The Command is: "Go fetch keys." Those are two different things, but they are working toward the same goal. It is important in cosmere terms that the Intent is understood, even if sometimes the words that can speak 'em are clunky and smaller in scale by nature than the Intent. Let's say the Intent of a Shard encompasses more than the word that the Shard is described by. It's a similar thing that the Intent of a Command is often vaster than the actual words spoken. And the magic can grasp the Intent, not just the Command, depending on the magic system and how good you are at it, and things like that. The words are there to focus Intent. How about that? Chaos Bringing the old word "focus" back into it. Let's talk about body focuses; what's going on there? (That's a joke.) Brandon Sanderson I'll throw you a kernel on that one in the fifth book if you watch for it. That old Rosharan philosophy will actually be relevant for a small thing happening in the fifth book. Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021) All that said, I have (and had) no intention of debating your theory. I merely saw things that I thought you had missed and pointed them out in case you wanted to consider them. For instance, the planet on which a MoI developes is a key component of that MoI's focus - to leave it out is like discussing an atom without talking about electrons.
alder24 Posted August 2, 2024 Posted August 2, 2024 13 hours ago, Confused said: Rather than the term “kinetic Investiture,” I should say Investiture in the form of “magical kinetic energy,” I don't understand this term. What is it? Is it just investiture? Kinetic investiture? Power/ability to use investiture itself (innate investiture)? What does this term mean? It's even more confusing. 13 hours ago, Confused said: Pathways are the pipeline that carries magical kinetic energy from the Shard to a magic user. So that's Connections that carry investiture from SR to the user? That's what Allomancy is, it's a Connection to Preservation through which investiture is drawn. But in case of Surgebinding the investiture doesn't come from SR, it's already in PR (but Radiant's Connection to Honor probably allows to draw that investiture in the first place). On Sel investiture comes from CR instead. Not everything comes from SR. 13 hours ago, Confused said: As I discuss later, I believe all magic including the end-neutral systems rely (mostly) on Spiritual Realm Investiture for energy. Not true, but to some it applies. Breaths are given to people at birth by Endowment, Stormlight comes from SR, Dor doesn't, it's just stuck in CR. Feruchemist uses what his body has to offer, he turns his physical attributes into investiture that is stored in metalminds. The only thing that comes from SR is the tiny bit of investiture that facilitates change of physical attributes into investiture and vice versa. Spoiler Questioner So for the Old Magic, in this classification system of end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative, where would that fall under? Brandon Sanderson So, almost every magic in the cosmere is end-positive, almost every magic is relying upon an external source of Investiture to power it. So that phrasing is mostly more relevant to Scadrial than anywhere else, because that concept is how I'm dealing with things like the laws of thermodynamics, and even what they call end-neutral is relying a little bit on the power of Investiture to facilitate. So even an end-neutral magic system as they define it on Scadrial is actually not end-neutral. What you get put in you get out, but the power is facilitating that transfer… So that phrasing is kind of a... Take that as a science on.. Scadrial that does not extrapolate well, and may not even be 100% accurate. Moderator That would have been a great thing to know before we did the cosmere magic panel. *laughter* Brandon Sanderson I look at it as, is an Investiture externally powering the magic, and if you look at Allomancy, yes it is. You are drawing that power out. Feruchemy, you are putting Investiture in from your own body, it's your energy transferring to Investiture, which is being stored, which you are then drawing out, and things like that. But that changing forms is facilitated by the magic. Whereas you're stealing stuff with-- So you could look, for instance at the magic on Nalthis, you could look at that one as being-- as kind of working as end-negative, meaning "I am taking it away from someone else", or end-positive depending on if you're the one receiving it or not. So again, it's a phrasing that can be useful as a tool but doesn't scale well to the other magics. JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016) 13 hours ago, Confused said: Most of my theories focus on the “primal force” aspect of Shards. The Vessel supplies personality, and the people of its Major Shardworld supply the “cultural component.” But the Shard as “primal force” is eternal and independent of the Vessel or local culture. No, that's not how I interpret this WoB. Shard is both a primal force and a fraction of Adonalsium's personality - personality doesn't come from a Vessel (but they can influence it), it's a part of the power. The cultural aspect isn't what you described, some Shards are less force-like, more culture-like - Honor is about being noble and upholding oath, but this is more a culture thing, rather than a universal law of nature. And while those things can be interpreted differently by a Vessel, the force and personality is one in a Shard. Some Shards are more like a personality (being noble), others are more like a force of nature (entropy). That's what he meant in the second paragraph of this WoB. 14 hours ago, Confused said: Brandon specifically names “stasis” as Preservation’s “primal force.” The full 2018 WoB I quoted above may be Brandon’s most important statement about Shards: Yes, Preservation represents stasis, I'm not arguing with this, I was asking if Allomancy is given though stasis. You can look at this both ways - it's a gift that allows you to stay alive and continue your "stasis," or a gift that changes you, giving you strength and ability to preserve yourself. In the end it all leads to staying alive for longer, but to be fair all Invested Arts cause you to stay alive longer. Does this mean that all invested arts are of Preservation? No. Brandon specifically calls Allomancy a gift: Spoiler Andrew The Great Why can Vin fuel Elend's atium-burning, even though Atium is Ruin's Body and Vin is using Preservation? Or did I misread that and he was just burning atium and had run out of everything else? Brandon Sanderson Yes, as has been pointed out: A powerful peace swelled in Elend. His Allomancy flared bright, though he knew the metals inside of him should have burned away. Only atium remained, and the strange power did not—could not—give him this metal. But it didn’t matter. For a moment, he was embraced by something greater. He looked up, toward the sun. (From the text.) As a note here, the powers granted by all of the metals—even the two divine ones—are not themselves of either Shard. They are simply tools. And so, it's possible that one COULD have found a way to reproduce an ability like atium's while using Preservation's power, but it wouldn't be as natural or as easy as using Preservation to fuel Allomancy. The means of getting powers—Ruin stealing, Preservation gifting—are related to the Shards, but not the powers themselves. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) Spoiler Chaos Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things? Brandon Sanderson One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited. The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift--allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy. /r/fantasy AMA 2011 (Aug. 31, 2011) 14 hours ago, Confused said: The 20 Lerasium beads are the only pieces of Preservation’s god metal he distributed We don't know how many Lerasium beads there were and where they came from. They could have been made by one of the Hero of Ages before Rashek with the power of the Well - we don't know if they came from Preservation directly, if someone else made them, or if they naturally leaked from the SR without Preservation’s involvement. 14 hours ago, Confused said: Preservation’s static role in Feruchemy is obvious. In that system, Preservation returns attributes to the status quo that existed before Ruin’s entropy turned those attributes into Investiture. The Feruchemist’s Intent to perform an act of stasis accesses Preservation’s Investiture, as we would expect. I would argue that Feruchemy is a gift that strengthens you (comes from Preservation) at the cost of weakening you for an equal amount of time (comes from Ruin). 14 hours ago, Confused said: This is when I realized “kinetic Investiture” is the wrong term. “Investiture as kinetic energy” – “magical kinetic energy” – is more accurate. Pathways are the pipeline down which magical kinetic energy travels from Shard to magic user. Breaths are not magical kinetic energy though they can be consumed as such if necessary. Yes, the Dor is in the CR. I’m NOT addressing innate Investiture. Innate Investiture is what people are born with, like the spark of life or Feruchemical sDNA. The “cracks in one’s soul” allow additional Investiture in, which is necessary for magic system Initiation but doesn’t affect my pathways to power analysis. This term is even worse. I'm truly confused about what you mean by this. Is it about raw investiture that's moving (which is kinetic investiture)? Investiture that's doing some work (that's also kinetic investiture)? What is it? In SR movement has no meaning as distance has no meaning, investiture is drawn from SR to PR via Connection instantly - and that investiture is kinetic. There are three types of investiture - kinetic, static and innate. Kinetic investiture is investiture that's doing some work like healing, stealpushing, lashing etc. Static is investiture that's sits and does nothing - in metalminds, Stormlight that was drawn into a body or a gemstone and isn't used etc. Innate is investiture that's part of your soul - Breaths, Preservation's fragment etc. Generally invested arts come from innate investiture. Which type of investiture is "magical kinetic energy?" It seems you just mean kinetic investiture, investiture that does some work. 14 hours ago, Confused said: I addressed this in my response to @Treamayne. Focuses are simply a nozzle, a way to restrict Investiture flow to avoid magic user vaporization (as Brandon mentions in a WoB you cite) and to shape the desired magical effect. Focuses are a component of the Command or, as with Awakening and Aons, coextensive with the Command. 14 hours ago, Confused said: Errr, I misstated that sentence. What I tried to say is that Focus is a component of a Command, and I wanted to look at that component rather than the Command. A Focus “shapes” the Shard’s Investiture to perform the specific Intended magical act. A Windrunner, e.g., doesn’t need all of Honor’s/Cultivation’s Investiture, only that Investiture necessary to fly or adhere in the manner he Commands. So, an intent? But the last sentence makes no sense - no magic user can access the full power of the Shard, even if they try. The amount of investiture they can access from SR (if they're using invested art that draws from SR like Allomancy) is dependent on your strength - innate investiture, how strong is your Connection to Preservation in Allomancy. A Windrunner doesn't draw investiture from Honor, he draws it from PR - from spheres and gemstones - and there is no limit in how much he can hold in his body (like there is, when the body gets vaporized, but theoretically he can get there if he has enough investiture in gemstones, nothing stops him from doing that). 14 hours ago, Confused said: On Roshar, Splinters ARE the Focus, not the Command. They are neither. They don't "shape the desired magical effect," the intent of the Radiant does this. Spren are the embodiment of Surges, they provide the ability to touch surges (innate investiture), to their knights via their shared Connection - Nahel Bond. They don't command or focus any investiture flowing from SR, because Radiants don't use investiture from SR. 14 hours ago, Confused said: Not only do they limit the Investiture flow (as demonstrated by the Oaths) They don't limit it. The higher the knight progresses in his ideals, the deeper the bond is between the knight and their spren, the more efficient he gets in using investiture he already has in his body - he doesn't draw any investiture from SR, it all comes from gemstones. Spoiler Zykai (paraphrased) Squires and people wielding Honorblades use more Stormlight than a regular Radiant. Who uses more? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) The further you progress, the more efficient you become at consuming Stormlight. They're never as efficient as the Voidbringers, since humans leak too much. Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019) 14 hours ago, Confused said: Kaladin still has to Command Syl to lash in the direction he wants, but Syl Focuses the Investiture flow. What? Where did that come from? Kaladin doesn't Command Syl to do lashings, he does this with his own powers. It's his power, given to him via Nahel Bond. Syl doesn't Command it, doesn't focus it. 14 hours ago, Confused said: All magic on Roshar seems to come from, and is Focused by, Splinters: the Honorblades, the Unmade, natural spren (fabrials), voidspren, and Radiantspren. Yes, the ability of Surgebinding does come from Splinters via bond. 15 hours ago, Confused said: “Burning metals” does NOT “grant you power from Ruin.” Neither Hemalurgy nor Feruchemy involves burning metals. I said obtaining kinetic investiture - this was the power I meant. Burning metals draws investiture from Ruin, when you are spiked with a Hemalurgic spike. But the ability to burn metals in Hemalurgy comes from stealing it with a spike. In Hemalurgy you just steal powers with spikes. Spoiler Zantis Let's say Lift received two Hemalurgic spikes: one for Allomantic bendalloy and one for Feruchemical bendalloy. Then she eats a bunch of pancakes, stores the nutrition in a piece of bendalloy, burns it to compound nutrition. Can that nutrition be turned into Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson Yeah. Yeah, but remember she didn't have to be-- so basically what that-- Is just a really complicated way for her to turn Allomantic Investiture-- so that it can allocate Allomantic Investiture into Stormlight. That would be a complex method of doing that. Just transferring one type of Investiture into another. It's just basically drawing from Ruin and she is then turning it into Stormlight-ish? It's a complicated thing, but that's basically what happens, just really crazy. Zantis Okay, so-- but it is the same sort of thing, right? *hesitant nod from Brandon* And-- Brandon Sanderson I hope that eventually in the cosmere they will find easier ways than that. Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018) 15 hours ago, Confused said: When you Hemalurgically spike Allomancy into someone, that person burns metal to perform the stolen Allomancy; but they access Preservation’s power, not Ruin’s. Disagree, WoB above and below. Hemalurgy grants you Connection to Ruin, and Ruin can fuel Allomancy and Feruchemy just like Preservation can. Spoiler Czanos Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (minus atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts? Brandon Sanderson Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the Metallic Arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) 15 hours ago, Confused said: I’ve already discussed what innate Investiture is, and it isn’t “power itself” accessed through “cracks in the soul.” It’s the Investiture every person’s born with – “innate.” To become a magic user, a person needs the additional Investiture Initiation provides to fill those cracks. Yes, but that additional investiture invests their soul more, which becomes innate investiture - a part of their soul. True, they weren't born with it, but it's still part of their soul. 15 hours ago, Confused said: First, because Cultivation SAYS her magic “CONTROLS ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN OR NURTURED.” Not her magic, SHE. OB ch 114: Quote IT WILL DO ME WELL TO HAVE A PART OF YOU, EVEN IF YOU ULTIMATELY BECOME HIS. YOU WERE ALWAYS BOUND TO COME TO ME. I CONTROL ALL THINGS THAT CAN BE GROWN, NURTURED. THAT INCLUDES THE THORNS 15 hours ago, Confused said: I think Transformation – the conversion of matter and energy into Investiture – is the perfect primal force to evolve lifeforms. Out with the old, in with the new... Transformation isn't just conversion of matter and energy into investiture, it's change in every direction - matter to matter as well. Soulcasting is Transformation. 15 hours ago, Confused said: Radiantspren convert Stormlight into their Surgebinding abilities. No, Stormlight is fueling the abilities, spren doesn't convert it to abilities. Spren and Radiant have those abilities, they just need fuel. 15 hours ago, Confused said: Aviar eat Invested worms. They acquire abilities they share with humans through a cognitive bond. Brandon says Aviar are the magical “intermediary” (pathway) between the worms and people. And what Aviars from Patji, an Avatar of Autonomy, who get their abilities at the Autonomy's perpendicularity, have to do with Cultivation? 15 hours ago, Confused said: Through a cognitive bond, Sand Masters Command Taldain’s microflora to manipulate sand. Again, it's of Autonomy. And that's more like a Luhel Bond - you give water, you gain investiture that was in the sand, you can manipulate it (you manipulate it, not those microbes). 15 hours ago, Confused said: Brandon says “life” follows a “natural pathway” that pre-dates the Shattering. Yeah, life created by Adonalsium on Yolen, which other Shards copied during their creations (Scadrial, Nalthis), because their Vessels were like that before - Preservation specifically asked to create life as they'd seen it before. HoA ch 76: Quote I was surprised when Preservation said he wanted to create you, Ruin said, a bit of curiosity in his voice. Other life is ordered by way of nature. Balanced. But Preservation . . . he wanted to create something intentionally unbalanced. Something that could choose to preserve at times, but to ruin at others. Something in the form of that which we'd seen before. It was intriguing. 15 hours ago, Confused said: Do you truly think Autonomy’s magic is “more opposite” Honor’s than is Odium’s magic? Not magic, the Shard of Autonomy fits the best as the direct opposition to the Shard of Honor based on their intents and personalities. Magics are unrelated to this. You can argue that Odium is an opposition to Honor, but in my opinion Autonomy fits better. Magic has nothing to do with this. For Odium I consider Devotion as the most opposite Shard (hate - love). You won't find such easy pairs of opposition like Preservation and Ruin elsewhere in Cosmere. Some did exist, on Sel those Shards were in opposition, but on Scadrial this was specifically because over time those Shards became polarized, thus they became a perfect opposition to each other. Spoiler Argent (paraphrased) Ruin and Preservation were often represented in the Mistborn trilogy in terms of black and white. Is this imagery limited to that series, or do other Shards also have an associated hue? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) This (Ruin & Preservation's colors) was because of the specific world and their perception of the world and themselves. Essentially, because of the dynamics of the interplay between Ruin and Preservation, they "chose" to view themselves as black and white respectively, so that's how they were represented. Also, because the only two Shards on Scadrial, and their natures were opposites, after the long period of time they spent on the same planet, they kind of "polarized." If similar thing happened on another world, similar coloring effect could happen. Steelheart Chicago signing (Oct. 1, 2013) Spoiler Questioner What Shard is the opposite of Odium in the sense of the *inaudible* Brandon Sanderson There are several that could be considered opposites-- Questioner I mean in the assimilation sense, you’ve said that Odium doesn’t want to absorb any of the other ones but which one would want to? Brandon Sanderson Oh, which one would want to join with him? Questioner Or any of them. Brandon Sanderson I think that if personalities had been different, Honor and Odium, there would have been a very natural pairing, not that they’re opposites but they would have attracted. [...] Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016) Spoiler Shardbound Do all Shards have a direct paired opposite intent... Brandon Sanderson No, I would say no, they do not all have a directly paired opposite intent. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) 15 hours ago, Confused said: But look at the OB, Chapter 109 scene I cite, where Odium breaks Dalinar’s vision: “Everything just...came apart.” (OB, Kindle p. 1025.) Dalinar binds the area around Venli and him. Mechanically, I think Odium breaks and Honor binds. Because Odium forcefully invaded Dalinar's vision and tried to take control over it, which destroyed the fabric on which the vision rested. It's not that Odium breaks, it's because Odium wanted to get into the vision, which the Stormfather resisted, their powers pressed together against each other sent ripples through the vision, destroying it. Odium literally recreated this vision a moment later, once he took control over it fully: Quote “What were you seeing?” Odium asked, curious. He tapped his scepter on the ground like a cane. Nohadon’s palace—where Dalinar had been moments before—materialized out of light beside them. “Ah, this one again? Looking for answers from the dead?” There literally is a growing connection between Odium and Dalinar, nothing is broken, it's growing stronger. RoW ch 112: Quote “Our Connection grows, Dalinar,” Odium said. “Stronger by the day. I can reach you now as if you were one of my own. You should be.” 15 hours ago, Confused said: Honorblades are a “pure Honor’s invested art.” No other Shard’s Investiture is involved. We don't know this. Just because Honorblades are pure Tanavastium and they feed on Stormlight, doesn't mean that the magic system they are giving is of pure Honor. This magic is the same as Surgebinding. And we know from WoB below that Shards can fuel every magic present in their system if they want - Ruin can fuel Allomancy directly, if he wishes. Honor can fuel Surgebinding, which is of both him and Cultivation, if he wants. Spoiler Czanos Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (minus atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts? Brandon Sanderson Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the Metallic Arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do. Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008) 15 hours ago, Confused said: The bolded language raises an important point. Lots of systems involve bonds, including Aviar and Ashyn microbes. Unlike other bonds, Honor’s bonds alone give access to his Investiture. Unlike other bonds, Honor’s bonds are “the WAY the magic is obtained,” “the means of getting powers” described in the two immediately preceding WoBs. For example, humans may bond with Aviar to share Aviar magical abilities, but the Investiture comes through the ingested worms, not the human bond. Allomancy is a bond, it's not of Honor, it's of Preservation. It alone gives power. Connection is just a natural property of Cosmere, it doesn't belong to anyone, it just is. Just like Fortune or Identity doesn't belong to any one Shard, so does Connection isn't just of Honor. Aviars are BONDED with those worms and Aviars are doing the magic in this relationship. 15 hours ago, Confused said: I theorized each sand ribbon a Sand Master controls relies on a separate, “autonomous” Splinter of Autonomy that constitutes a fractal. Still diesagree with this. 16 hours ago, Confused said: said, “a weak form of cognitive water bond also exists on the Patji Archipelago between predators and prey.” You responded, “No water is required to use Aviar, it's a bond, similar to a Nahel Bond.” Again, I didn’t say water WAS necessary for an Aviar bond. What Cognitive water bond is there? There are some predators living in the water, some living on the island, there is no proof that they have any kind of water bond like you suggest. 15 hours ago, Confused said: But you can’t ignore that Autonomy builds massive rock structures from the ocean, grants Investiture to worms through Patji’s Eye, and requires Sand Masters to dehydrate in order to perform magic. Is this just coincidence? There is no proof which suggests the rocky island of Patji was created directly by Autonomy. You can't claim that without providing solid evidence. Patji's Eye is a perpendicularity, it's pure, liquid investiture, not water. Sand Mastery looks suspiciously like a Luhel Bond we saw in Tress/TLM. Aethers require water too, yet they have nothing in common with Autonomy - they claim they didn't even come from Adonalsium. 16 hours ago, Confused said: I’m not sure what your point is. I interpreted it as the island of Patji was created by Autonomy, thus made out of Autonomy's investiture, similarly Rosharan continent is made out of Autonomy's investiture primarily. I disagree with this, there is no evidence to support this claim. 16 hours ago, Confused said: The prior WoB confirms there’s a “gathering of [Autonomy’s] Investiture” on Roshar. That phrasing suggests the amount of Autonomy’s Investiture is substantial. We also know the Roshar pangaea is a Julia Set fractal. I don’t mean to suggest Autonomy is the only Investiture comprising the Rosharan pangaea. Obviously, many Investitures go into any complex undertaking like continent-raising. The last sentence is true, but we also don't know if the continent was raised from the sea floor, or if the pre-existing world was flooded with water, with the continent already being that high and fully created. Or maybe water and the continent were created at the same time. We don't know the chronological events of the creation of Roshar. Yes, there is Autonomy's investiture present on Roshar, but we don't know where it is and if it's focused anywhere in particular. It might be just spread evenly across the entire Rosharan system, not being used by Autonomy at this moment. We don't know. We just know there is such investiture there, just like there is investiture of every single Shard on Roshar and elsewhere in Cosmere. 16 hours ago, Confused said: Again, I feel you lean too hard on metaphor and not hard enough on mechanics. Yes, Endowment gives. In my “Business Plan for Monetizing Breaths” post, I cite Brandon’s statement that Endowment wishes to encourage the growth of the Nalthian Breath market. She wants to help people. “Endowment” is a nice metaphor for Edgli’s kind personality. What statement? Please provide a WoB or a quote of Brandon saying this, because I can't find any. It's just your theory, not a fact we know. 16 hours ago, Confused said: But mechanically how does Endowment give magic users access to her Investiture? In the same way everyone in Cosmere can do Hemalurgy, everyone in Cosmere can do Awakening, even without Breaths. It's all about Intent and knowledge. It's a unique magic system that everyone can access, no matter where they are. I don't know how this works mechanically in details. 16 hours ago, Confused said: What primal force do YOU think might be associated with the cosmere’s sole pre-packaged QUANTUM of Investiture? In this case it's more about personality than a force. And again, it's not the only quantum of investiture. Literally everyone born in Cosmere has investiture like Breath in them. And Breaths themselves vary in strength. 16 hours ago, Confused said: Why is light (color) so integral to Awakening? Why is color so important to Soulcasting or to Fabrials? I don't know. Color is simply an important part of Cosmere, it's not just Endowment. Spoiler Questioner (paraphrased) Do specific colors have an impact on Awakening in Warbreaker? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) Not usually, you just need a certain amount to Awaken. But there can be more due to various reasons connected to the cosmere. It is connected to the significance of eye color on Roshar. Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019) Spoiler Sciencetor2 The gems on Roshar, are they the same as the gems you and me know, or are they a byproduct of Investiture? Brandon Sanderson For the most part they are the same as the gems we know, which will ask the question, "Since most of them are chemically identical, other than color, what differentiates them?" and in the cosmere, color is very important, so I'll just leave you at that, but most of them are going to be gems like we have. If you took a ruby from our world to Roshar, it could be Invested by the highstorm. Sciencetor2 And spren? Brandon Sanderson We will RAFO that for now. Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018) Spoiler Questioner With the gemstones, we know that the hue seems to matter more than the rarity. Is that somehow tying in to the colors for Warbreaker, and how that stuff works? Brandon Sanderson Yes, that is tying in. Color will be a recurring theme, much as metal will be a recurring theme, as you see different magic systems work. In this case, the color has an affect on the spren and getting a spren trapped in it. Questioner So just the color itself? Brandon Sanderson Yeah the color is the important part. When I was researching Stormlight, I determined that color had to be the point. Because a lot of the gemstones I'm using are molecularly identical. Questioner So that was the best way to differentiate? Brandon Sanderson So this was the best way to differentiate. But I had already had this as part of the cosmere, that color and the way people perceive color and things like, that were part of it. But getting ten different gemstones that were molecularly different proved to be very difficult and not worth it. If you look, so many of them are just basically the same gemstone with a few impurities. Their crystalline structure is the same. Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018) 16 hours ago, Confused said: Oh, look! Light is made of QUANTA of electromagnetic radiation. EVERYTHING is made out of quanta. Not just light, everything. A quantum of electricity is an electron, a quantum of light is a photon, a quantum of humanity is a single person - quantum means the smallest discrete unit of a phenomenon. 16 hours ago, Confused said: It’s irrelevant (for this purpose) that Breaths are a form of Innate Investiture. But each Breath is also a quantum of Investiture – the smallest usable unit of Investiture. A quantum of investiture in Allomancy would be the amount of investiture drawn by burning a single atom of any given metal. It's everywhere. And it's not true that Breaths are the smallest unit of investiture in Awakening. Warbreaker ch 49: Quote “Child,” he said. “I’m going to say some words to you. I want you to repeat them. Repeat them, and mean them.” [...] And, with the extra awareness she had, she thought she saw something. The girl’s BioChromatic aura—the normal one that all people had—flickered just slightly. It was faint. Yet with the First Heightening, Vivenna could have sworn she saw it. But Denth told me it was all or nothing, she thought. You have to give away all the Breath you hold. And you certainly can’t give away part of a breath. 16 hours ago, Confused said: A Breath holder must burn a whole Breath for kinetic energy, which magically (and financially) can be very expensive. We don't know this. Nobody has ever used Breaths to fuel magic kinetically on pages. 16 hours ago, Confused said: Congratulations! You may have quoted the single most disagreed with WoB in history. If you go back to the 17th Shard topics at the time, you will find near-universal dismay and disagreement. This WoB would overturn everything we thought we knew about the cosmere. It would mean Shards could change each other’s Investiture into their own. It would upset the 16-Shard balance. It would mean Odium could freely take up Devotion and Dominion’s Investiture instead of pushing it into the CR. It’s just WRONG. Just because YOU don't like this doesn't mean it's not true. RoW showed us this is possible and showed us the mechanism of doing this. It doesn't mean that Shards can change their investiture into investiture of other Shards, I disagree with this because each Shard resonate with their own unique Rhythm and they cannot overwrite their Rhythm with other Shard's Rhythm because they can't produce that Rhythm. But Shards can change investiture of other Shards into something else - this is called Corruption, when mixing of Shardic investiture occur. Spoiler Blightsong How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren that people would feel are corrupted. But that's corruption where the mixing of different Shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, what they're meaning is the mixing of Shards' powers. Blightsong So is there a mixing of Shards' powers happening with Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson *smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it. Blightsong Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right? Brandon Sanderson *contemplative silence* RAFO. OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016) 16 hours ago, Confused said: I agree with everything you say after the bolded phrase and before the last sentence. Contrary to the bolded statement, there IS “additional power” coming from the Spiritual Realm to facilitate the magic. Yes, my bad. This is true. However, I will point out that this is true for Feruchemy, because there is a transfer of matter into investiture. In Awakening we don't know if the same applies because investiture simply turns from kinetic into static/innate etc. There is no additional outside energy needed to facilitate the change of potential energy into kinetic energy. There might be no additional investiture coming to facilitate the change of static Breaths into kinetic Breaths and back to static. Moreover if there is, this energy might be taken from Breaths directly, a tiny sliver of investiture might be used to do this, or this is where the color draining comes into play - the tiny bit of spirit web taken from objects is the power that facilitates this change. (if this is needed, which in my opinion isn't in the case of Breaths). 17 hours ago, Confused said: Kinetic energy, bottled up by the broken AonRao, has everything to do with turned a ruined city into Elantris again and turning the Shaod into full-blown Elantrians. The Dor, in the form of kinetic energy, flowed through the repaired Aon into Elantris and Elantrians. I'm not seeing this. 17 hours ago, Confused said: Sel’s magic has always been based on topography. Please, start providing sources for such claims. We don't know this. 17 hours ago, Confused said: Splintering Sel’s Shards wouldn’t change that on Sel anymore than Splintering Honor changed Surgebinding on Roshar. That's because Honor's investiture wasn't pulled into CR. 17 hours ago, Confused said: You agree with me! A good place to end... C. Agree to disagree. The reasons for this are totally different. If the city of Elantris was built in the air, Raoden would have to draw that line in the air. That's a looooong post, still I enjoy it a lot, even if I disagree. It's a fun theory.
bmcclure7 Posted August 9, 2024 Posted August 9, 2024 (edited) On 7/27/2024 at 5:10 PM, Confused said: Magic systems are each unique and complex, but they do contain common features. 1. Specific magical abilities are not unique to any Shard. Multiple systems grant flying, emotional manipulation, and physical enhancements, each in their own way. 2. How the magic user accesses Investiture is Shard-dependent. For example, Honor’s magic users access his Investiture through bonds, Preservation’s through stasis, and Ruin’s through acts of entropy. 3. A third magical element, and the subject of this post, is a Shard’s “pathway to power.” I theorize kinetic Investiture reaches the magic user down some Spiritual Realm route between the magic user and Shard. Pathways are a special form of Connection between a magic user and Shard. Known pathways, unlike other Connections, are made from matter or energy. Preservation’s metal is the clearest example. Most Connections convey information. Pathways seem to convey kinetic Investiture. In many magic systems, the magic consumes the pathway (e.g., Allomantic metals and Sand Master’s water). In these systems, the magic ends when the consumed pathway ends. Pathways are different from the Shard’s “primal force...fundamental law” that grants magic users access to the Shard’s Investiture. Marasi introduces the idea of pathways in Bands of Mourning: This WoB highlights the similar idea of “natural pathways,” which seems to refer to pre-programmed magical templates: Here’s a chart of my uncertain choices about Shard features. I don’t know enough about the unincluded Shards to comment on them. This chart is highly speculative. I use the “old” word “Focus” rather than the current word “Command” to put the “focus” on the substance or action that accompanies/is part of the Command. Explanations (rationalizations?) follow. Shard Access to Investiture Pathway to Power Focus Preservation Stasis Metal Metal Ruin Entropy Unknown – Metal? Metal Cultivation Transformation Life Spren Honor Bonds Oaths? Splinters Odium Broken Connections Emotion Splinters Autonomy Fractals Water Visualized Command Endowment Quanta EMR Visualized Command Dominion Potential Energy Ground Motion Devotion Kinetic Energy Ground Topographical Symbol Brief (Speculation-filled) Explanations: Preservation: Brandon confirms Preservation is the “Stasis Shard.” A finite number of Lerasium beads is responsible for all Allomancers. Brandon also confirms metal is Preservation’s pathway to power, as quoted above. Ruin: Brandon confirms Ruin is the “Entropy Shard” (same WoB as Preservation’s). I don’t know what Ruin’s pathway is, but like Preservation’s it may be metal. I largely base that guess on the fact that Nightblood is steel yet doesn’t Focus any Allomantic, Hemalurgic, or Feruchemical abilities (to our knowledge). I believe metal is also Ruin’s Focus, like it is Preservation’s, since metal Focuses both Hemalurgy and Feruchemy. While Hemalurgic bind points matter too, the Ruinous (entropic) act that accesses Investiture is shattering the transferor’s body, Focused by the spike’s material. Cultivation: I believe Cultivation is the “Transformation Shard.” Her magic users access Investiture by converting matter and/or energy into Investiture, like Lift does. Cultivation’s magic represents the cosmere’s first law of thermodynamics. Cultivation confirms to Dalinar that “life” is her pathway: Because the Shard’s “natural pathway” is lifeforms, I believe Transformation expresses itself as Evolution. Odium: I think Odium is the “Shard of Broken Connections.” IMO, his pathway to power is emotional Connections. His Investiture flows through that pathway to rouse or calm “Passions.” (I believe he also affects emotions by manipulating the Connections that constitute a person’s conscience.) I think Odium manipulates Connections through a mix of breaking and restoring them. IMO, Odium uses this process to manipulate every Connection, including the Surges, like I think the Fused do. Emotional Connections, though, are the only pathways that carry Odium’s Investiture (I theorize). I think Odium is the best “Shard Killer” because he most easily severs the Connection between Shard and Vessel that keeps the Vessel alive. Honor: Brandon confirms that Honor is the “Bond Shard.” As shown in the Dalinar-Venli vision (OB, Chapter 109, Kindle pp. 1024-1026), Honor’s and Odium’s magic oppose each other – one bonds and one breaks. I don’t know what Honor’s pathway to power is. My current guess: the Connections that establish mutual commitments among people – oaths, promises, etc. The control test should be the Honorblades, which are pure Honor Splinters. Yet anyone can use a Blade, including Szeth, other Shin, even Vyre. The reason anyone can use Blades, I speculate, is that Honor’s now dead and can’t “chain” – throttle – his pathway to the Blades. Without Honor’s Vessel at one end of the pathway, there’s no mutuality between Honor and the Bladeholder. Honor’s death made Ishar an “unchained” Bondsmith. (This analysis presumes the Heralds made some promise or oath to Honor about the Blades, the reason why Ishar’s now unchained.) OTOH, each Radiant oath does strengthen their Connection to Honor because they make their oath to the Stormfather, not Honor (discounting Honor’s Cognitive Shadow). Mutual oaths like the Oathpact remain in effect because those Connections continue among the living Heralds. But this is all just a guess; I’m sure Honor wouldn’t need a promise or oath to shut down an Honorblade if Tanavast were alive. Autonomy: I believe Autonomy is the “Fractal Shard.” Avatars are the best examples of Autonomy’s fractals. I think each Sand Master’s sand ribbon separately accesses Investiture from a different Autonomy Splinter, a discrete “autonomous” fractal. Though Autonomy delivers Investiture to Taldain from its sun, I believe water is Autonomy’s pathway. Taldain’s water cycle circulates the Investiture throughout the planet. Khriss says Sand Master dehydration accesses a small stream of kinetic Investiture. (AU, “The Taldain System,” p. 369.) Water-reactive microflora absorb the Invested water to create a cognitive bond with the Master. Water makes the microflora grow rapidly. The Master, through the water bond, shapes that growth, and in turn the sand, using visualized commands (IMO) much like Awakeners do. The magic stops when the Master stops dehydrating. I believe a weak form of cognitive water bond also exists on the Patji Archipelago, a known Autonomy Avatar built from the ocean floor. Both land and sea predators there (IMO) hunt their prey through a temporary water bond, stronger in the ocean than the “deep humidity” of the island. Roshar holds a “gathering” of Autonomy’s post-Shattering “assigned Investiture.” I believe much of that Investiture built the Rosharan pangaea, a Julia Set fractal raised from the sea floor. Endowment: I think Endowment is the “Quantum Shard.” Breaths are the cosmere’s sole, pre-packaged quantum of Investiture. (Because Breaths are a valuable, freely transferable, yet limited resource, I wrote a post entitled “Business Plan for Monetizing Breaths.”) With trepidation and much controversy, I believe Endowment’s pathway to power is Electromagnetic Radiation (EMR). I think Awakening can use any form of kinetic Investiture from any Shard and on any planet; but the Investiture must first be quantized to travel down an EMR pathway (like light) to the Awakener. The basis for this theory is the idea that color is just the perception of reflected light. I think an Awakened object must already hold Investiture that the Awakener drains, and the loss of that Investiture turns the object gray. This idea is borne out by the fact that black, the absence of color, holds more Investiture than white, which is the totality of colors. The reason IMO is that black absorbs more light than white does. On Nalthis, I speculate that Endowment Invests photons (light quanta) from the sun that are absorbed by objects on the planet. Like Sand Mastery with water and Allomancy with metal, Awakening ends when an object is fully drained of its “color” (or IMO its quantized Investiture). Dominion and Devotion: Speaking of wild speculation... I think Dominion and Devotion are, respectively, the “Potential Energy and Kinetic Energy Shards.” They shared a single magic system until Odium Splintered them. IMO, Dominion controls magical access on Sel, setting the conditions under which potential energy becomes kinetic energy. Programming-type language based on local topography are the joint system’s Focus. Magic users gain more precise magical ability the more complex their topographic form. It’s as if Dominion challenges magic users to prove their knowledge of (and dominion over) their homeland before bestowing magic on them. Sel’s magic user’s execute their programming language through motion – drawing an Aon, turning an essence stamp, stirring a potion, dancing, or bending bones. IMO, completing the motion’s form converts Dominion’s potential energy into Devotion’s kinetic energy that performs the actual magic. Maybe... I think Sel’s ground is the pathway for both Shards. Sel’s location-based magics and topographical forms show the ground is Invested. Khriss confirms Sel’s “landscape” is becoming even more Invested. Raoden had to draw Aon Rao on the ground, not in the air, to restore Elantris. I speculate Sel’s magic users consume Investiture that leaches from the ground into the food chain. Shai’s essence stamp uses organic inks. Bloodsealers use their target’s blood. Dakhor monk bones hold Investiture deposited from their food. Forton’s potions use organic ingredients. Conclusion Shards give magic users access to Investiture in unique ways. I believe the Spiritual Realm pathway their Investiture takes to reach the magic user is also unique. You may disagree with my choices – I disagree with some of my choices – but the concept of pathways seems viable. the “Shard of Broken Connections.” I heard this befor in reference to Odium but I just don’t see it. there’s nothing in the intent of either hatred or passion in general that entails breaking connections. Though I do like the idea of being able to control the emotions through connection. But that said I’m not entirely sure what we see Odium the unmade and ulim do is manipulate emotions, exactly. The heart does take away guilt, and sorrow, but also amplifies your desire to party (which isn’t quite an emotion) whereas the thrill suppresses fear and guilt, but also amplifies bloodlust and competition (neither of which are emotions) I think what could be happening here is more along the lines of increasing your desires in such a way that suppresses emotions. Through I have to admit that moash may just disprove this. Unless odium is amplifying his desire for vengeance. But I don’t see any evidence of that in the text. Edited August 9, 2024 by bmcclure7
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