Theory: Riina is Shaor

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

I don't have any direct evidence to support this, it was just a feeling I had while re-reading Elantris today.

I realized that Shaor's father, Duke Telrii, uses Aon Rii in his name and I saw a connection.

When the wildmen change loyalties to Raoden, they present him with Shaor's wig, but we never find out if she actually died. It seems entirely possible that she joined the Hoed for a time but was restored when Raoden fixed Elantris.

Raoden described her as being the worst, and that fits pretty well with what we know about Riina.

Was curious if anyone had any more insight on this that might point in one direction or the other.

[Treamayne]

8 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I don't have any direct evidence to support this, it was just a feeling I had while re-reading Elantris today.

I realized that Shaor's father, Duke Telrii, uses Aon Rii in his name and I saw a connection.

When the wildmen change loyalties to Raoden, they present him with Shaor's wig, but we never find out if she actually died. It seems entirely possible that she joined the Hoed for a time but was restored when Raoden fixed Elantris.

Raoden described her as being the worst, and that fits pretty well with what we know about Riina.

Was curious if anyone had any more insight on this that might point in one direction or the other.

Brandon has said that he has no plans to bring Shaor back - and Riina was not her real name. 

Spoiler

From the Elantris Annotations to Ch 34:

Quote

 

I know it seems like I’m setting Shaor up for a return, but I really don’t intend to bring her back. At least, I didn’t when I wrote this chapter. The truth is, I just didn’t want to write a scene of the madmen returning with the torn up body of a little girl.

However, every time I read this section, I can’t help noticing that I left one of the book’s most dangerous villains alive (potentially.) Ironically, because it seems so obvious from the text that Shaor is still alive, I think I’d avoid doing anything with her in a sequel. It seems like in fiction, any time you don’t see a body, you automatically assume (often correctly) that the villain is still out there somewhere.

However, in this case, it really doesn’t make sense to use her again. Shaor wasn’t a threat because of any special skills on her part–I see no reason to bring her back.

 

Elantris Glossary:

Quote

Shaor—(A)

An Elantrian. One of the three gang leaders of Elantris, Shaor controls the market section of the city. (See also Soine and Sorii)

Soine—(A)

The name that Raoden mistakenly thinks was Shaor's real name before the Shaod. (See also Sorii)

Sorii—(A)

Youngest daughter of Duke Telrii. She died when she was very young, though it is rumored she was actually taken by the Shaod. (See also Shaor)

 

Also (Mistborn Spoilers)

Spoiler

(MSH P5 C3)

Spoiler

When the ancient one wasn’t looking, Kelsier grabbed the guard around the neck and hauled him into the darkness. The man thrashed, but Kelsier got him in a quick lock and hold, knocking the man out without too much trouble. He pulled the body back quietly, then returned to find the solitary ancient one standing with lantern in hand beside her horse, turning frantically.

The jungle had become eerily still. “Hello?” she called. “Elrao? Riina?”

Kelsier waited in shadow as the calls became more and more frantic. Eventually the woman’s voice gave out. She slumped down in the forest, exhausted.

So, as of Secret History, Riina was not only a non-Reod* Elantrian, but also already a long-time member of the Ire. WoBs:

Quote

mail-mi

Are the Ire old enough to have gone through the Reod?

Brandon Sanderson

The Ire are very, very, very, very old.

Footnote: Brandon adds "very old" again a few moments later.
Calamity release party (Feb. 16, 2016)

Quote

Questioner

Question about Elantris real quick. In your [Arcanum] Unbound[ed], they show up. Is this post or pre Elantris. Because they're so well organized in that one.

Brandon Sanderson

So, that is post Elantris. But, the Ire weathered the [Reod].

Questioner

Oh they come back. And they remember everything.

Brandon Sanderson

They were not on Sel when the [Reod] happened.

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)

* I have a theory about this, but not enough evidence to confirm/deny the timeline. 

Hope that helps

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

Fair enough. Thanks for sifting through the WoB’s for me.

[Treamayne]

13 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Fair enough. Thanks for sifting through the WoB’s for me.

No worries. Tips and techniques for searching the Arcanum (WoBs) can be found in the Sharder FAQ (near the bottom of the first post) if you are interested. 

 

[AonEne he/him]

Moved this to Cosmere Discussion - note that Shaor isn't mentioned in Tress, so is considered a spoiler there. 

[+robardin he/him]

I wonder just how "very very old. Very old" the Ire are.

They're Elantrians, yeah - but maybe even pre-Reod Elantrians isn't old enough, because when the Aonic peoples arrived from who Raoden is descended, and who formed the population of Arelon, they found the city already there and abandoned by some pre-Aonic people who had vanished.

After a generation or so the Aonic Arelonians began giving birth to people who were taken by the Shaod to become Elantrians, and they ruled and did wondrous things with Aons, but that was all largely a pattern of rediscovery of what the Ancient Elantrians (if that is what they called the city) could do.

Those Ancient Elantrians built the city before Odium came over and Splintered Dominion and Devotion, too:

Quote

Evilsmiley

Was Elantris built before the Shards were [Splintered] on Sel or not?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, in my outline right now Elantris existed before Odium did his dirty work on Elantris.

It's unlikely to change, but I do have to point out this isn't strictly canon yet, and likely won't be until I write the Elantris sequels.

General Reddit 2021 (Feb. 22, 2021)

I'm thinking the Ire are from THAT era of so-called Elantrians. (Which city's original name may have been Iretown or something, haha.)

They left Elantris once they built technology to maintain their Spiritual Connection to AonDor from anywhere in the Cosmere - why stay stuck in a small patch of land on Sel?

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

I'm thinking the Ire are from THAT era of so-called Elantrians. (Which city's original name may have been Iretown or something, haha.)

Interesting theory, but unlikely. The Aonic Pronuncialtion and word construction (Glossary - Pronunciation Guide) are from Raoden's people - we do not know what Language the City-Builders used, or how they pronounced the "Aons" (Meanings are tied to the Aon Forms - but pronunciation and grammar are dependant on the local language).

However, Riina, Riino, Elrao, and Alonoe are all distinctly Aonic names. However, this does not preclude OG Elantrians mixing with post-Splintering Elantrians in the Ire.

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Interesting theory, but unlikely. The Aonic Pronuncialtion and word construction (Glossary - Pronunciation Guide) are from Raoden's people - we do not know what Language the City-Builders used, or how they pronounced the "Aons" (Meanings are tied to the Aon Forms - but pronunciation and grammar are dependant on the local language).

However, Riina, Riino, Elrao, and Alonoe are all distinctly Aonic names. However, this does not preclude OG Elantrians mixing with post-Splintering Elantrians in the Ire.

They also say "Merciful Domi".

Still, it could be an example of a shared ancestry going even further back. We know the Aonic people arrived to an empty Elantris, and yet the Shaod only takes people who are both Aonic AND born near Elantris (a person of JinDo or MainPon descent, even one born in Aradel, would not be taken by the Shaod).

So whoever the Ancient Elantrians were could have been the ancestors of the Aonic peoples, or been cousins to them.

[alder24]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Interesting theory, but unlikely. The Aonic Pronuncialtion and word construction (Glossary - Pronunciation Guide) are from Raoden's people - we do not know what Language the City-Builders used, or how they pronounced the "Aons" (Meanings are tied to the Aon Forms - but pronunciation and grammar are dependant on the local language).

However, Riina, Riino, Elrao, and Alonoe are all distinctly Aonic names. However, this does not preclude OG Elantrians mixing with post-Splintering Elantrians in the Ire.

This could be because of Connection. They've started to use the same pronunciation the stronger their Connection to Arelon became. Aons are a part of the magic system itself, they were discovered. As you discover them and understand them, you feel the right way to pronounce them. 

Not a lot of evidence but we can't discard that Connection played some role in this.

[Treamayne]

26 minutes ago, robardin said:

They also say "Merciful Domi".

Still, it could be an example of a shared ancestry going even further back. We know the Aonic people arrived to an empty Elantris, and yet the Shaod only takes people who are both Aonic AND born near Elantris (a person of JinDo or MainPon descent, even one born in Aradel, would not be taken by the Shaod).

So whoever the Ancient Elantrians were could have been the ancestors of the Aonic peoples, or been cousins to them.

Entirely possible.  We simply do not yet have enough information. For my money, based on current data, I think the Shaod is based on:

1. Connection to the land [1]
2. Connection to Devotion (Examples)
   • Raoden - Devotion to his people
   • Taan - Devotion to his Scupting
   • Mareshe - Devotion to "art"
   • Galadon - Devotion to his farm
   • Saolin - Devotion to Eondel's Legion
   • Karata - Devotion to the Children
   • etc.

[1] - Land, as it was when Elantris was built - which does not necessarily match Arelon's current national borders, which is why people from North Duladen are sometimes changed by the Shaod. Likely a similar Connection as seen by the Malwish Translating Medallion.