[SA5 SPOILERS] On the Unmade in Shinovar

[BlueWildRye he/him]

For Wind and Truth, Kaladin and Szeth will be heading to Shinovar to cleanse it. Cleanse it of what? Well, as we know, along with the "false leaders" there, it is also implied that there are multiple Unmade there. So, which Unmade do you think are influencing the Shin? There are two I think we can discount right away, that being Ba-Ado-Mishram and Nergaoul. BAM is locked away, SA5 preview chapter spoilers:

Spoiler

In the Spiritual Realm!!!

And the Thrill is inside a rock at the bottom of the ocean. So that rules them out.

Spoiler

Unless BAM's prison in the Spiritual Realm is located where Shinovar is in the Physical Realm. If it works that way. I'm not that good with Realmatic Theory.

Anyway, anyone care to share their ideas on the Unmade in Shinovar?

Edited July 23, 2024 by BlueWildRye
spoilers

[Aredor]

We can also discount Moelach, because we know he's in the Peaks. That leaves six. 

Re-Shephir seems unlikely. She is much more of a skulker than one that would drive a normally peaceful people (I.E. I-4, Rysn, WoK) to go into an insane state where nothing is allowed. 

Sja-Anat is also unlikely. She has been in Kholinar and in Emul, but not in Shinovar. 

Chemoarish is one I think is in Shinovar. She isn't one of the three great mindless Unmade, so she could have the intelligence to stay in Shinovar and cause chaos. We don't know anything about her, so I'd say she's pretty likely. 

Dai-Gontharnis is one I'm conflicted on. I'd love to see him, but I'd also love for there to be a creepy scene at the end (a la El) to show off this cool new villain. 

Ashertmarn also seems likely. Shallan never actually defeated it, she just triggered the trap. 

Finally, Yelig-Nar could be a really cool one for Szeth to instantly destroy with Nightblood. 

[alder24]

8 hours ago, BlueWildRye said:

BAM is locked away, SA5 preview chapter spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

In the Spiritual Realm!!!

And the Thrill is inside a rock at the bottom of the ocean. So that rules them out, unless SA5 preview chapter spoilers:

Spoiler

BAM's prison in the Spiritual Realm is located where Shinovar is in the Physical Realm.

If it works that way. I'm not that good with Realmatic Theory. Anyway, anyone care to share their ideas on the Unmade in Shinovar?

Spoilers!! You did good by putting the first spoiler from SA5 in a spoiler box, but you've immediately forgotten to do that again in the next sentence. Please edit your post and put the second spoiler box  

Responding to the SA5 spoiler:

Spoiler

There is no location in the Spiritual Realm - it's spaceless, it's not a place. It's not like the Cognitive Realm which is a mirror reflection of the Physical Realm and has locations corresponding to locations in the PR. The SR has nothing like this, distance has no meaning there. Plus BAM is still trapped inside a gemstone, which should be enough to prevent her from influencing anything. 

Spoiler

Questioner

In Shadesmar, the solid and liquid phases are inverted. So, in the Spiritual Realm, is it something to do with solid and gas phases, or is it not the same at all?

Brandon Sanderson

It is not quite where you're going, but I like the way you're thinking.

Questioner

So then what's the reason that they can't travel to the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The Spiritual Realm is not a place.

Skyward San Francisco signing (Nov. 8, 2018)

 

Spoiler

[edited to remove spoilers and to highlight the important part]

Brandon Sanderson

Remember that on the Spiritual Realm, this is the big tidbit--they're listening. On the Spiritual Realm time, distance, and space are irrelevant. It's a place where time and space are compounded in one. So anything that exists on the Spiritual Realm, space doesn't matter for it.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

Spoiler

[edited to remove spoilers and to highlight the important part]

Brandon Sanderson

So, most of the magics are not region-dependent, because the Spiritual Realm-- in the Spiritual Realm space doesn’t exist.  All things are the same distance from one another.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

 

 

Ishar said that Shins welcomed Unmades. It's hard to say when this happened, but I think we have enough information to estimate this. In WoK Rysn visited Shinovar and everything seemed normal. In OB Shins exchange correspondence with Dalinar in Urithiru, congratulating him on reclaiming the city and just before the Battle of Thaylen field they notify nations that the Everstorm was coming earlier. Only somewhere after this and before the beginning of RoW did Shins break their contact with everyone else and even become hostile towards Radiants they try to fly by Shinovrar. I think this strongly suggests that Unmades appeared after OB, as that's when Shins behavior was changed. Let's go Unmade by Unmade and present all we know about their current location and how likely it is that they are in Shinovar now. 

• Ashertmarn - last seen in Kholinar during OB, he left the city and his current position is unknown. Timeline seems to fit, he could have gone towards Shinovar after Kholinar and due to his efficiency of corrupting people shown to us in OB, it would make sense to involve this Unmade in Shinovar. 
• Ba-Ado-Mishram - trapped in a gemstone since Recreance, she can't be in Shinovar.
• Chemoarish - nothing is known about her, we've never seen her before. It's possible she is in Shinovar, as it would be a good way to introduce us to this Unmade. 
• Dai-Gonarthis - just as with the previous Unmade, not much is known about Dai-Gonarthis. It's possible he was involved in the Scouring of Aimia. However because of this Death Rattle, I suspect he's the one responsible for making Moash emotionless, thus he would be always near Moash. I think it's unlikely he's in Shinovar. WoK ch 67 epigraphs:

  Quote

  Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-Gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!

• Moelach - he was reported by the Diagram to have settled near the Horneater Peaks by the end of OB. I think he was still there during the events of RoW, mainly because the novela in between RoW and SA5 was meant to be about Rock and Horneaters and it would be good for the plot to have an Unmade there.
• Nergaoul - he's practicing deep diving. Can't be in Shinovar.
• Re-Shephir - she resided in the Urithiru until she was forced to escape in the beginning of OB, thus the timeline fits and she might have moved towards Shinovar after OB. She was in contact with Fused because she reported to them she felt the Sibling is dead some time after her escape. Nothing else is known about her location. 
• Sja-Anat - was in Kholinar in OB, in the middle of RoW she was commanded by Odium to move to Emul, to watch Taravangian. Moreover she's actively working against Odium. She wasn't in Shinovar.
• Yelig-Nar - since the aftermath of the Battle of Thaylen Field his location is unknown. It's possible he moved towards Shinovar, the timeline would fit, however it's worth remembering that he needs a physical host to act. Only those strong enough will be able to control him, otherwise they would be consumed like the queen Aesudan. Due to this I think it's unlikely he's the one influencing Shins, even if he is in Shinovar which might be possible. Yet I think he might have been held in reserve by Rayse as a gift for his Champion against Dalinar - this would be a very smart move by Rayse to empower his Champion with Yelig-Nar, so I doubt he's in Shinovar. However it's just a speculation of mine. 

From this we can see that 4 Unmades can't be in Shinovar, or it's highly unlikely for them to be there. Those are BAM, the Thrill, Moelach and Sja-Anat. I would include Dai-Gonarthis to this list as the 5th Unmade and Yelig-Nar as the 6th, however those are speculations then something we are sure of. The rest can be in Shinovar, however I highly doubt all of them would be there. One or two are enough and we shouldn't expect more than that. I think Chemoarish is very likely to be there because she is the one we know literally nothing about. Other than her I would say Ashertmarn is the second most likely Unmade to be there as well - he would be more useful there than Re-Shephir.

However there is one more thing to consider - Ishar considers himself to be fighting against Odium and his champion, to be Almighty himself. He said Unmade were there when he arrived there and that he saved them from Unmades. It's likely that he indeed did that and he banished Unmades from Shinovar, so when Kaladin and Szeth go to Shinovar in SA5, no Unmades will be there. But it's equally likely that Ishar was swayed by Unmades as well, he allowed them to stay and used their influence to subjugate Shins under his rule. They can still be there causing further destabilization of Shinovar.

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

However there is one more thing to consider - Ishar considers himself to be fighting against Odium and his champion, to be Almighty himself. He said Unmade were there when he arrived there and that he saved them from Unmades. It's likely that he indeed did that and he banished Unmades from Shinovar, so when Kaladin and Szeth go to Shinovar in SA5, no Unmades will be there. But it's equally likely that Ishar was swayed by Unmades as well, he allowed them to stay and used their influence to subjugate Shins under his rule. They can still be there causing further destabilization of Shinovar.

Interesting point!  He said he "Saved" them from the Unmade, but what we know is that he reclaimed his own Honorblade, killing Szeth's father in the process. What if those were the same thing and an UnMade had taken control of those holding the Honorblades before he arrived?  They'd have had access to all the surges and years of training on how to use them, and apparently some degree of Sympathy for the UnMade.  It's within the realm of possibility that they used the Honorblade surges and Recovered one of the imprisoned UnMade, so maybe BAM and Yelig-nar should be put back on the list as technically possible but unlikely.

[dvoraen]

When it comes to the activity of the Unmade, I've been scratching my head because they've seemed largely pacific since Oathbringer (of those we've seen). I would have thought that we'd have heard reports of their activity, if the Everstorm had "revitalized" them, as Sja-anat's interlude strongly implies was the case for the active Unmade. That said, the Diagram stated that it was likely "one or more" of the Unmade had gone to Shinovar, and given that the country seems to have gone silent (to say nothing of Ishar's crazy ramblings about them there), it seems likely they're not only still there, but they're actively working to destabilize the country, much as three of the Unmade were at Kholinar, and two at Thaylen City, all for the purpose of Odium eventually gaining control of those nations.

For myself, I'm a bit suspicious that we'll see these two there, at the minimum:

- Dai-Gonarthis -- reasoning: if the Black Fisher tends to evoke states of anguish in people for consumption, Kaladin seems like he'd be very vulnerable to this, much as Shallan seemed to be rather vulnerable to Ashertmarn's influence in Oathbringer. Alternatively, Kaladin's depression and states of gloom might mean he has the most understanding for this particular Unmade, as Dalinar did with Nergaoul.

- Yelig-nar -- reasoning: Kaladin seemed to have a small affinity, detecting Yelig-nar's presence when he was consuming both Aesudan and Amaram. Additionally, Szeth has presumably trained with all of the Surges via the Honorblades, so he might actually be the one who understands Yelig-nar the most, or quite possibly might be forced to ingest a gemstone and have to fight the Unmade from consuming him (or draws Nightblood while this is happening lol).

[Ashbringer he/him]

Nightblood eating an Unmade would be nice to see.

I also wouldn’t be too surprised if El or Dai-Gonarthis become back half opponents where we don’t see much of them in WaT, but we’ve really got no idea what the back half is going to be.

I’d also note that Yelig-Nar would be good to send to fight off trained individuals who might have multiple Honorblades. Although I wonder if Vyre will also show up…

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

1 hour ago, Ashbringer said:

Although I wonder if Vyre will also show up…

I kind of doubt it, being permanently blinded isn't something one just gets over and adapts to within 10 days. If he does show up it probably won't be as a combatant, especially not against Kaladin or Szeth. Maybe he'll get Kaladin to freeze up a bit or maybe enrage him like he was in the previous book, with the red eyes or something. 

[Ashbringer he/him]

1 hour ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

I kind of doubt it, being permanently blinded isn't something one just gets over and adapts to within 10 days. If he does show up it probably won't be as a combatant, especially not against Kaladin or Szeth. Maybe he'll get Kaladin to freeze up a bit or maybe enrage him like he was in the previous book, with the red eyes or something. 

I doubt he'll get cured, but I wouldn't be surprised if he, Taravangian, El, or someone manage to pull some shenanigans, such as leveraging Connection to get him able to see Kaladin (and only Kaladin).

Could definitely see him being non-combatant. Or him arriving to be a counter-influence on Ishar; I wouldn't be surprised if Ishar manages to think he's Jezrien. But I think Kaladin's faced enough of what Vyre can throw at him.

[Ashbringer he/him]

On 7/22/2024 at 9:04 PM, Aredor said:

Chemoarish is one I think is in Shinovar. She isn't one of the three great mindless Unmade, so she could have the intelligence to stay in Shinovar and cause chaos. We don't know anything about her, so I'd say she's pretty likely. 

Just realized something responding to another post - I think I agree Chemoarish would be in Shinovar, thanks to one specific Death Rattle:

Quote

A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears.

I think this has been theorized to be one of the things shown in Dalinar's visions, with Alethkar fading away. But I wonder if it instead means Szeth watching what has happened to Shinovar. Alethkar doesn't have much in the way of ocean access (near where people are, like Kholinar) - Shinovar has a bit more. And "Dust" could correspond to, instead of outright destruction, the Dustmother.

Edited August 27, 2024 by Ashbringer