How to Compound with Hemalurgy (and become the Lord Ruler)

[NerdyAarakocra They/Them]

So. I just did some rereading of The Lost Metal, and I came across an interesting quote from Marsh. When meeting the group while they're being held in captivity by Entrone. Marsh says that the Set can't compound using Hemalurgy because "Identity contamination prevents it." This implies that Hemalurgic spikes contain a bit of the Identity from the person they stabbed, preventing compounding.

If only there were some way to get rid of someone's identity... *Malwish airship crashes through window*

Yep, that's right. If you want to Compound with Hemalurgy, all you'll need to do is get a ferring or a misting to store their identity in an unkeyed metalmind and spike them. Spike yourself, and now you've got a spike without identity contamination. Do this for the corresponding metal, and you'll have access to compounding. Nice.

So let's say you want to use this to become the second Lord Ruler (as one does). I'd recommend you start by spiking a Duralumin ferring. This allows you to store Connection, and by tapping connection, you become more able to form relationships with others, or, you know, persuade them to ignore the spike in your hand. Then go for a Duralimin misting to Compound Connection, and now you can convince anyone to do anything you want. Use this to spike one of every other type of ferring and misting while having them store Identity, and you can acquire the powers of the Lord Ruler.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

[Trusk'our he/him]

1 hour ago, NerdyAarakocra said:

So. I just did some rereading of The Lost Metal, and I came across an interesting quote from Marsh. When meeting the group while they're being held in captivity by Entrone. Marsh says that the Set can't compound using Hemalurgy because "Identity contamination prevents it." This implies that Hemalurgic spikes contain a bit of the Identity from the person they stabbed, preventing compounding.

If only there were some way to get rid of someone's identity... *Malwish airship crashes through window*

Yep, that's right. If you want to Compound with Hemalurgy, all you'll need to do is get a ferring or a misting to store their identity in an unkeyed metalmind and spike them. Spike yourself, and now you've got a spike without identity contamination. Do this for the corresponding metal, and you'll have access to compounding. Nice.

So let's say you want to use this to become the second Lord Ruler (as one does). I'd recommend you start by spiking a Duralumin ferring. This allows you to store Connection, and by tapping connection, you become more able to form relationships with others, or, you know, persuade them to ignore the spike in your hand. Then go for a Duralimin misting to Compound Connection, and now you can convince anyone to do anything you want. Use this to spike one of every other type of ferring and misting while having them store Identity, and you can acquire the powers of the Lord Ruler.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

Yup, that's the easiest way to do it. Maybe even throw in a F-gold spike to donors so they can grow their power back after it's harvested.

You probably could even fit multiple powers in fewer spikes if you bypass Identity contamination (i.e. a Steel spike could contain A-iron, steel, pewter, and tin), and if you're really good with metallurgy and the Bindpoints permit it, you may be able to make spikes out of multiple metals and fill the with eight to sixteen powers each, meaning you can become an artificial Fullborn with only three spikes.

Edited May 27, 2024 by Trusk'our

[therunner he/him]

7 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

You probably could even fit multiple powers in fewer spikes if you bypass Identity contamination (i.e. a Steel spike could contain A-iron, steel, pewter, and tin),

Identity contamination is the (likely) reason for Compounding not working after Era 1, but soul not getting more powers from spikes is a separate from that.

The wording in Ars Arcanum also specifically says that soul stops getting powers, implying that the limit is 3-4 powers obtained unnaturally, not spikes themselves.

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and if you're really good with metallurgy and the Bindpoints permit it, you may be able to make spikes out of multiple metals and fill the with eight to sixteen powers each, meaning you can become an artificial Fullborn with only three spikes.

Spike made out of multiple metals is still multiple spikes. Only if you alloyed them would it count as single spike, but than it would of course not be Hemalurgically usable.

So at best you need 8 spikes to become artificial Fullborn, and I doubt even that (as per the reasoning above).

Edited May 28, 2024 by therunner

[Trusk'our he/him]

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Identity contamination is the (likely) reason for Compounding not working after Era 1, but soul not getting more powers from spikes is a separate from that.

The wording in Ars Arcanum also specifically says that soul stops getting powers, implying that the limit is 3-4 powers obtained unnaturally, not spikes themselves.

Krhiss is an in world arcanist limited by the knowledge available to those who are in world.

I think it's quite likely that she means individual spikes rather than powers, as they are more or less analogous to one another with current in world understanding. 

That being said, it is still definitely a possibility that you can't get more than 3-5 powers no matter your number of spikes. It's all too theoretical at this point to say for certain. 

6 hours ago, therunner said:

Spike made out of multiple metals is still multiple spikes. Only if you alloyed them would it count as single spike, but than it would of course not be Hemalurgically usable.

I believe a spike counting as a single object has more to do with Identity, perception, and the number of Bindpoints it requires (which as far as I know should only need to ever be one).

Again, this is entirely theoretical at this point, so we'll need more information to be certain. 

14 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

and if you're really good with metallurgy and the Bindpoints permit it, you may be able to make spikes out of multiple metals and fill the with eight to sixteen powers each, meaning you can become an artificial Fullborn with only three spikes.

I realize I should probably clarify what I propose here; since Hemalurgic pewter/steel and brass/bronze share Bindpoint quadrants, I think it may hypothetically be possible to create spikes with up to eight powers that fit into a single Bindpoint to grant all powers simultaneously. 

Cadmium/Bendalloy/gold/electrum all share a quadrant too, so you could maybe make a single spike containing 16 powers and graft it to a single Bindpoint, assuming Bindpoints for powers of the same Hemalurgic quadrant are interchangeable and if you can weld the metals together while keeping them pure and if you can bypass Identity contamination. 

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Krhiss is an in world arcanist limited by the knowledge available to those who are in world.

I think it's quite likely that she means individual spikes rather than powers, as they are more or less analogous to one another with current in world understanding. 

That being said, it is still definitely a possibility that you can't get more than 3-5 powers no matter your number of spikes. It's all too theoretical at this point to say for certain.

True, but since her word is also the primary source for this statement, so doubting her knowledge is odd (especially when it is communicated in Ars Arcanum which is used to give us more 'external' and objective viewpoint of the magic systems than stories do).

In addition, Medallions also cannot grant more than 3 powers and those are apparently stupidly rare, giving another example of limitation on granting powers.

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I believe a spike counting as a single object has more to do with Identity, perception, and the number of Bindpoints it requires (which as far as I know should only need to ever be one).

Not everything can be overriden with perception.

If you see spike as a single object, than a simple question arises, what is the metal composition of this singular spike?

If you say multiple metals, then you imply it is not a single spike, you still separate it into multiple sub-objects (like Wax did with bullet). And hence it should require multiple (and different) bind points.

If you say single metal, then it is an alloy, and not hemalurgically viable.

So this is my issue, you both have to see it as one object, and as multiple at the same time.

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

I realize I should probably clarify what I propose here; since Hemalurgic pewter/steel and brass/bronze share Bindpoint quadrants, I think it may hypothetically be possible to create spikes with up to eight powers that fit into a single Bindpoint to grant all powers simultaneously. 

Cadmium/Bendalloy/gold/electrum all share a quadrant too, so you could maybe make a single spike containing 16 powers and graft it to a single Bindpoint, assuming Bindpoints for powers of the same Hemalurgic quadrant are interchangeable and if you can weld the metals together while keeping them pure and if you can bypass Identity contamination. 

I understood you, I just disagree you can reuse bindpoint that way. A single spike goes in a bindpoint, and having 'single' spike made out of multiple sub-spikes does not seem feasible to me.

It sounds more like a semantic argument then a physical one. Welded spikes are still that, welded spikes not a single large spike.

Edited May 28, 2024 by therunner

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

11 hours ago, therunner said:

Spike made out of multiple metals is still multiple spikes.

I believe a spike counting as a single object has more to do with Identity, perception, and the number of Bindpoints it requires (which as far as I know should only need to ever be one).

Please keep in mind that even if you match the metals, different powers can't use the wrong bind point. WoB (and Annotation):

Spoiler

 

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Brandon Sanderson

The Mechanism of Hemalurgy

The Blessings and the workings of Hemalurgy gave me some trouble as I designed the second and third books of this series. On one hand, I liked the way Hemalurgy worked by stealing powers from Allomancers or Feruchemists and giving them to other people. However, if I was going to limit myself to sixteen metals and be able to steal both Allomancy and Feruchemy, that meant I needed a mechanism to determine which power got stolen. If, for instance, you drove a pewter spike into a person who was both an Allomancer and a Feruchemist, then how would that spike know which power to suck out and grant to the one who would gain it?

As I was toying with how this would work, I realized that I needed to work the kandra and the koloss into this as well. Only, it was ridiculous to assume that the Lord Ruler would kill Allomancers to make koloss. There weren't enough Allomancers, for one thing—plus it would be foolish to lose the power of an Allomancer to gain an inferior tool in a koloss.

So that meant koloss had to be made out of regular people, not Allomancers or Feruchemists. Suddenly I had another set of abilities that Hemalurgy had to be able to steal—the basic pieces of Preservation inside the souls of all men.

Hence the decision that where the spike was placed in the receiver, and how it was used to kill a person, influenced how the power was shaped. Now a pewter spike could steal any of a number of powers, based on how it was used. And regular people could be used instead of Allomancers—however, when that happened, the receiver was twisted much more than if an Allomantically charged spike or a Feruchemically charged spike was used.

My rationale for this is that if the spike is pulling out the pure power of Preservation—part of the power of all creation—and twisting it, it would change the body of the recipient greatly. Twisting them through use of the twisted power.

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 17, 2009) (Emphasis mine)

 

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Brandon Sanderson

So, since I was doing other things.  Hemalurgy-when you spike, you place the spike in a place that determines which charge the spike gets.  

Kythis

Through the heart seems to pick up universally.

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on where in the heart. It's like acupuncture. This was designed from acupuncture and you get very specific on which nerve you're hitting and things like that

Kythis

So the spike will never pick up more than one power.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, the way they know how to do it.

Footnote: This clarifies two previous questions.
Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

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Edited for length and relevance

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike.

Questioner

So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately--

Brandon Sanderson

What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want.

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

 

So, a Pewter Spike with a Skimmer charge will use a different bind point in the recipient than a Pewter spike with a Steelrunner charge.

I talked about Meridians in these two posts. But here's an example of how detailed actual Acupuncture meridians are:

Spoiler

Finding a specific point requires understanding of Cun and how that is used to measure points on the body (note - since the Cun is based on the thumb width, when measuring somebody else, you need to use their thumb's width).  For example, (I don't have my reference books here at work - so I may update this example tonight to be more accurate); if the H-Brass Bindpoint for a spike with an Archivist charge uses Heart Meridian point 2, that would be through the biceps 3 cun above the elbow and 1 cun Medial from the humorous. 

Edited May 28, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, therunner said:

True, but since her word is also the primary source for this statement, so doubting her knowledge is odd (especially when it is communicated in Ars Arcanum which is used to give us more 'external' and objective viewpoint of the magic systems than stories do).

A fair point. 

Normally, I'd agree with this on other topics, such as her knowledge of Identity contamination being a key component in Hemalurgic Compounding or the reason for weakened Hemalurgy being due to Ruin's and Preservation's new balance of Intent, but this really feels more like a simple linguistic interchange, so I'm not ready to commit to it.

3 hours ago, therunner said:

In addition, Medallions also cannot grant more than 3 powers and those are apparently stupidly rare, giving another example of limitation on granting powers.

I'm not sure that this is connected to Hemalurgic limitations. We've even seen Medallions used by Mr. Suit, who had three Hemalurgic spikes already at the time.

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Not everything can be overriden with perception.

If you see spike as a single object, than a simple question arises, what is the metal composition of this singular spike?

If you say multiple metals, then you imply it is not a single spike, you still separate it into multiple sub-objects (like Wax did with bullet). And hence it should require multiple (and different) bind points.

If you say single metal, then it is an alloy, and not hemalurgically viable.

So this is my issue, you both have to see it as one object, and as multiple at the same time.

It is true that perception cannot override everything, but in this case I mean that a single object made from multiple parts could still be counted as a single object. 

For example, a gun usually registers as a single object to Steelpushing, yet it has many moving parts made of different materials. 

Sunlit Man spoilers:

Spoiler

We see that a summoned Spren must be made of a single object, but chains and links can still be considered one, despite not being physically connected. 

 

3 hours ago, therunner said:

I understood you, I just disagree you can reuse bindpoint that way. A single spike goes in a bindpoint, and having 'single' spike made out of multiple sub-spikes does not seem feasible to me.

Sorry, I didn't mean to correct you here, I was just trying to make my case clear for any others reading as I didn't exactly explain myself very well originally. 

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Please keep in mind that even if you match the metals, different powers can't use the wrong bind point. 

This is true. That is why this hinges on the possibility of at least some Bindpoints that share a Hemalurgic Quadrant being interchangeable. 

[therunner he/him]

12 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

A fair point. 

Normally, I'd agree with this on other topics, such as her knowledge of Identity contamination being a key component in Hemalurgic Compounding or the reason for weakened Hemalurgy being due to Ruin's and Preservation's new balance of Intent, but this really feels more like a simple linguistic interchange, so I'm not ready to commit to it.

Fair enough.

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I'm not sure that this is connected to Hemalurgic limitations. We've even seen Medallions used by Mr. Suit, who had three Hemalurgic spikes already at the time.

Hmm, good point.
Do you recall where specifically this was? I assume somewhere close to end of BoM.

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It is true that perception cannot override everything, but in this case I mean that a single object made from multiple parts could still be counted as a single object. 

For example, a gun usually registers as a single object to Steelpushing, yet it has many moving parts made of different materials. 

Yes, that is true.

But I am pointing out that Hemalurgic spike must have rather specific composition to work.
So either you see it as a single spike, which is not made out of any Hemalurgically viable metal; or, you see it as multiple spikes welded together and you are trying to get multiple spikes in a single bind point.

That is my point, it has to be both singular (one spike = one bindpoint) and plural (different metals = different spikes = powers from different quadrants). It would be like trying to push a gun as both a singular object and trying to also separately push on a specific part, which I don't think is possible (from how steellines split).

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Sorry, I didn't mean to correct you here, I was just trying to make my case clear for any others reading as I didn't exactly explain myself very well originally. 

My mistake then. More clarity never hurts.

Edited May 29, 2024 by therunner

[Trusk'our he/him]

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Hmm, good point.
Do you recall where specifically this was? I assume somewhere close to end of BoM.

I don't have the book on me, but I know he and Telsin had to use weight reduction Medallions in order to fly on the airship, and I'm pretty sure he mentions using Medallions as well.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

Yes, that is true.

But I am pointing out that Hemalurgic spike must have rather specific composition to work.
So either you see it as a single spike, which is not made out of any Hemalurgically viable metal; or, you see it as multiple spikes welded together and you are trying to get multiple spikes in a single bind point.

That is my point, it has to be both singular (one spike = one bindpoint) and plural (different metals = different spikes = powers from different quadrants). It would be like trying to push a gun as both a singular object and trying to also separately push on a specific part, which I don't think is possible (from how steellines split).

Personally, I think would work as the spike has the composition for the Invested charges for two different spikes, but acts as a single spike Realmatically in terms of Identity and one-ness. This is, of course, entirely theoretical and it very well may be that it just doesn't work this way.

Maybe if multiple metals cannot be combined as Hemalurgic spikes, you could use Atium, as the composition would be the same for any power and only finding Bindpoints that can hotwire multiple powers would matter.

5 hours ago, therunner said:

My mistake then. More clarity never hurts.

All good friend 

 

[therunner he/him]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

Personally, I think would work as the spike has the composition for the Invested charges for two different spikes, but acts as a single spike Realmatically in terms of Identity and one-ness. This is, of course, entirely theoretical and it very well may be that it just doesn't work this way.

I don't think that would work. If it acts as a single spike realmatically, then it has invalid charge for them metal it is composed of.
Or more precisely, the charges stay in the appropriate metals, and so it is Realmatically multiple spikes, just basically glued together.

I mean, you cannot just weld together Ironmind and Steelmind, and by touching one, use both.

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Maybe if multiple metals cannot be combined as Hemalurgic spikes, you could use Atium, as the composition would be the same for any power and only finding Bindpoints that can hotwire multiple powers would matter.

Atium would get around the issue I think is there.

But it still assumes that removing the Identity of Donor lets you re-use spikes on different people, which I think will still be highly problematic (as you cannot necessarily store 100% of given attribute, so certain remnants of Identity will always be present).