A new new theory of the soul in the box and Shallan's mother

[InTheArena]

Forgive me if someone else posted this theory - a few google's did not resolve anything.

I just finished listening to the graphic audio book rendition of Stormlight, this time going through the series in the light of the obviously (imho correct) theory that Chanarach is Shallan's mother.  Given the prologue, it's pretty clear that Chanarach will be part of Stormlight 5.

But then my inner Kelsier got going. There is always another secret. Chanarach being Shallan's mother is far more obvious than usual fantasy secrets. Maybe it's not so much the secret as the secret that hides the real secret.

Here's my theory. Not only is Chanarach Shallan's mother - Shallan is well aware that Chanarach is a herald, is alive, communicated with her on Braize \_after\_ her death, perhaps robbed Jasnah at Chanarach's bidding and did something that resulted in Chanarach "breaking" and returning to Roshar, thus starting the true desolation.

From the best chapter that Brandon has ever written (at least to me) "Red Carpet, once White"

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"The world ended, and Shallan was to blame"

Sanderson writes in third person limited. Theoretically, the narrator can only narrate something that Shallan knows or feels.  Quite often, the narrator is thinking back to some event in the past and, therefore, "knows" something that the character knows or feels in the present and can, therefore, bring it up in the context of a a flashback or memory.

Of course, we are led to assume that Shallan feels this way metaphorically—that it is because she just offed her mother. If we are really into things, we may suspect that Shallan feels this way because she sent someone into Braize. But maybe, just maybe, Shallan's future knowledge is a step beyond that—she knows that her mother is a Herald, that she is currently in Braize, and that her return will spark a desolation.

How would she have this information? First it's possible to check up on the population of Braize:

 

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“Now I make sure this death was truly permanent,” Raboniel said, “by communicating with the souls on Braize." - RoW, Chapter 97

Interesting word. Communicate. What's the Cosmere cellular plan? Oh yeah. Seons. Very very rare on Roshar.  assuming it's not some other skill she randomly has - where would Raboniel get a Seon? How about that one and only distributor of Seons - Mraize. The same Mraize and the same ghostbloods that Lin Davar was involved with.

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"Not that kind of riches,” the man said, with a smile. He stepped forward and respectfully handed her a large pouch. Raboniel took it, and it made a soft clink. Raboniel undid the top, and stared inside. She sat there for a long moment, and when she next spoke, her voice was devoid of rhythms. “How? Where did you get this?” “I bring a gift,” was all the man said. “To encourage you to meet with my babsk to negotiate terms."

What better way to encourage Raboniel to meet with his babsk then to give her a mechanism to ask to meet with her babsk?

So there is a decent possibility that Raboniel communicated with Braize via a Seon.

Doesn't change that Seons are rare. So rare in fact, that Shallan has already run into two of them:

RoW Chapter 30:

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"This experience … she’d done this before. She’d been here, kneeling on the ground, holding a cube that glowed from the corners. Exactly like this.

She was on a mission into Shadesmar. Why should she expect to see gardens behind her? Her father’s gardens? Veil faded into Shallan."

 

We find out later that this Seon is special. It's a unbound Seon.

Okay, Shallan had a Seon as a child. Seons are useful. Also magical. And stored in cubes now. Let's see if there are other mentions of Shallan and cube like structures, say by a certain King's wit:

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I’m sorry, young one,” the man said, expression softening. “He gave me only that brief message for your father, and that only because I mentioned I would be traveling this direction.”

“Oh! I assumed he’d sent you here. I mean, that coming to us was your primary purpose.”

“Turns out that it was. Tell me, young one. Do spren speak to you?”

The lights going out, life drained from them.

Twisted symbols the eye should not see.

Her mother’s soul in a box.

“I . . .” she said. “No. Why would a spren speak to me?”

“No voices?” the man said, leaning forward. “Do spheres go dark when you are near?”

 

 

And there are more references:

 

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Words of Radiance Chapter 9:

“They passed Father’s strongbox set into the wall. It glowed brightly, light streaming from the cracks around the closed door. A monster was inside.”

 

 

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Words of Radiance Chapter 27:

“They passed Father’s chambers. The heavy stumpweight door was open a crack as a maid tidied the room, allowing Shallan to see the far wall.

And the glowing strongbox.

It was hidden behind a painting of a storm at sea that did nothing to dim the powerful white glow. Right through the canvas, she saw the outline of the strongbox blazing like a fire. She stumbled, pulling to a stop.”

 

 

Words of Radiance  Chapter 61:

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“It will be done, Brightlord.” That voice. It was Rin, captain of Father’s new guards. Shallan backed up, peeking into the room. Father’s strongbox shone behind the picture on the back wall, bright light bursting through the canvas. To her it was almost blinding, though the men in the room didn’t seem able to see ”

We've been assuming that it was Pattern in the safe, but this is a lie that Shallan tells herself (and a lie that Pattern repeats). It's explicitly a vision, not a flashback:
 

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“Shallan stepped over one, though it was just an illusion, and walked to the wall. A painting had appeared, part of the illusion, and it was outlined with a white glow. Something was hidden behind it. She pulled aside the picture, or tried to. Her fingers only made the illusion blur.

This was nothing. Just a re-creation of a memory she wished she didn’t have.

“Mmm . . . A better lie, Shallan.”

She blinked away tears. Her fingers lifted, and she pressed them against the wall again. This time, she could feel the painting’s frame. It wasn’t real. For the moment, she pretended that it was, and let the image capture her.

“Can’t I just keep pretending?”

“No.”

She was there, in her father’s room. Trembling, she pulled aside the picture, revealing the strongbox in the wall beyond. She raised the key, and hesitated. “Mother’s soul is inside.”

"Mmm . . . No. Not her soul. That which took her soul.”

Shallan unlocked the safe, then tugged it open, revealing the contents. A small Shardblade. Thrust into the strongbox hastily, tip piercing through the back, hilt toward her.

“This was you,” she whispered.

“Mmm . . . Yes.”

 

At best, it was never a pattern inside the strongbox; at best it would have been a testament. But a testament was a shardblade—a bonded shardblade. It would have disappeared and not remained in the strongbox. It can't be pattern, and it can't be a testament in the box.

It's pretty straightforward to assume that it was a Seon in the box, placed there after the Chana-kabob. So why does Shallan think that her mother's soul is in the box - Simply because Shallan sees or hears her mother in the Seon. Seon's make people's face appear, glowing (elantris, Chapter 2)

The monster is not Testament or Pattern - but rather Chana herself, communicating from Braize.

So, what would our intrepid do? Ignore the box once her father died, or use the box to communicate with her mother?

So this is my theory. Not only is Shallan using a Seon, she has used it in the past to communicate - with Chanarach.

From there you can can ask some interesting questions. Why is it that Radient and Veil only physically showed up after the desolation occured? Shallan's powers were manifesting (to some degree) between the period in which she broke the bond with Testament (which we don't fully understand) and before Pattern cut over to the Physical realm.

I think there is much more communication, and perhaps even open direction coming from Chanarach to Shallan. Shallan is, by definition, a unreliable narrator. Perhaps Shallan has been hiding Chanarach's role all along.

Finally, Veil was re-integrated into Shallan because the emotional event at the core of Veil's creation was resolved - her murder of her mother, and breaking of Testament's bond. Yet Radiant is still around - and Radiant is much more recent then Veil. Could it be that acknowledging that her mother is not dead (a fact she "knows") and that Shallan has perhaps been actively working with her mother resolve Radient? After all Radient looks just like  Chanarach  as well?

[Unholy Truth]

I love it. Count me in

[Ookla she/her]

Fascinating. That would be a really, really entertaining twist!

Of course, if this were what Sanderson is planning, my only question would be why. I write stories, and so I've got a little bit of experience on the author side of things, and in many cases, twists like this can be very conscious decisions--especially with Sanderson's writing style, which he's outlined in his recorded writing lectures on YouTube. So, what end result of this conscious decision might he be aiming for? What could the purpose behind the twist be? Those aren't questions you have to answer, by the way, or criticisms of this theory of any kind. Just a little thought experiment that could lead to further theorizing. From the author's perspective, what is the benefit of doing things this way versus any other way? What would happen if Shallan was communicating with Chanaranach? Hmm...

[Master Silver]

One thing that this made me think of is that there is no way that Chanarach doesn't die on purpose. The way we have seen other heralds fight perhaps she jumps on the blade, feels bad about traumatizing her daughter so tries to reassure her that she is still alive through the Zeon...traumatizing her further.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

9 hours ago, Ookla said:

So, what end result of this conscious decision might he be aiming for? What could the purpose behind the twist be?

Off the top of my head, it has been said that the other radiant spren do not trust the cryptics. 

 

So far we havent really seen anything to explain why. If pattern has been lying to shallan because the cryptics are working for chana / caused the desolation, that would explain it. I dont think the cryptics are betraying humanity but sanderson pays off on small comments like that all the time. Combine that with shallan thinking she is a terrible person, when she hasnt done anything wrong from what we have seen. Killing her father could definitely be argued as self defense and her mother was undoubtedly self defense. If pattern has been lying my guess is he wants to protect shallan, he thinks this truth can remain a lie (him being in the box instead of a seon). 

 

If she was working with her mom and helped her come back, thus causing the desolation, that would explain her terrible perception of herself more, even if she didnt understand what her mother was doing since she was a child.

[InTheArena]

I think the "why" is tied to the "mundane" realities under the fantasy story. Dalinar is a drunk who is is trying to become sober, after it ripped his family apart. Kaladin is suffering from PTSD. Shallan is dealing with mental breakdowns due to a controlling and abusive family.

Shallan's mother still manipulating her, and having to get out from under that seems a very solid story rational to me.

 

[alder24]

I think the secret of Chana is tied to Ghostbloods and my strong suspicion that Shallan was a Ghostblood as a kid. In the SA 5 prologue Thaidakar said “The things we’ve started are in motion” and that was in the context of giving Gavilar what he wanted, return of Surgebinding - igniting a new Desolation. Ghostbloods somehow were involved in starting the True Desolation and what’s better way to do that than killing a Herald and sending it back to Braize to break? 

When Shallan’s mother screamed “she’s one of them,” she wasn’t referring to Radiants, she was accusing Shallan of being a Ghostblood. Shallan used a Seon in her childhood, Mraize knows awfully a lot about Shallan’s past and her family, he keeps calling “little knife” because she was a little kid when she joined, or started to worked for Ghostbloods and she was their weapon which started all of this. She remembers using a Seon because she used it to communicate with Mraize. 

Shallan might have knowingly worked to kill her mother, or she was totally oblivious to Mraize’s manipulations which ultimately put her in the position where she had to kill her mother. 

While the possibility of Shallan communicating with Seon is on the table, this is too vague and doesn’t touch the problem of Ghostbloods involvement in Shallan’s past.

 

 

On 5/11/2024 at 9:37 PM, InTheArena said:

Interesting word. Communicate. What's the Cosmere cellular plan? Oh yeah. Seons. Very very rare on Roshar.  assuming it's not some other skill she randomly has - where would Raboniel get a Seon? How about that one and only distributor of Seons - Mraize. The same Mraize and the same ghostbloods that Lin Davar was involved with.

Quote

"Not that kind of riches,” the man said, with a smile. He stepped forward and respectfully handed her a large pouch. Raboniel took it, and it made a soft clink. Raboniel undid the top, and stared inside. She sat there for a long moment, and when she next spoke, her voice was devoid of rhythms. “How? Where did you get this?” “I bring a gift,” was all the man said. “To encourage you to meet with my babsk to negotiate terms."

What better way to encourage Raboniel to meet with his babsk then to give her a mechanism to ask to meet with her babsk?

Raboniel was given a chain from Threnody as a gift from Mraize. That wasn't a Seon. Fused using Seons to communicate with Braize is just not fitting well. They are most likely sending Voidspren with messages or maybe using some form of the Surge of Transportation, Connection, or their songs. They might even be communicating through Odium directly. Everything sounds better than using Seons. It was said in RoW ch 64 epigraph:

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"The sand originated offworld. It is only one of such amazing wonders that come from other lands—I have recently obtained a chain from the lands of the dead, said to be able to anchor a person through Cognitive anomalies. I fail to see what use it could be to me, as I am unable to leave the Rosharan system. But it is a priceless object nonetheless."

 

 

7 hours ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Combine that with shallan thinking she is a terrible person, when she hasnt done anything wrong from what we have seen. Killing her father could definitely be argued as self defense and her mother was undoubtedly self defense.

Really. Killing your mother, which you've loved dearly, causing your father to go mad and abuse your brothers, which ended up with him banishing one of them, killing your step-mother, crippling your brother and you killing your father isn't something terrible? Sure, it's easy to say that it was in "self-defense" etc, but that's us talking from the outside perspective, with no emotional attachment. I'm not saying she is a bad person, I'm saying that it's fully understandable why she believes she is a terrible person. Self-defense or not, it doesn't matter when she killed her parents and brought misery to her family.

[CtrlAltDepressed]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Killing your mother, which you've loved dearly, causing your father to go mad and abuse your brothers, which ended up with him banishing one of them, killing your step-mother, crippling your brother and you killing your father isn't something terrible?

Yes it is but none of that is Shallans fault. Even remotely. Yes the emotional attachment is difficult and i dont mean to dimish it, im only saying that so far the only thing we have seen is a completely oblivious and innocent shallan kill her mother completely on accident. I dont mean to say a child should be able to logically look at their situation and know they are not at fault. Just that shallan seems to accept at this point as a young adult that she is not at fault for killing mom / dad, yet still believes herself to be untrustworthy and destructive ('if only he knew the real me'). That personal narrative seems to indicate there are events we dont know about that shallan was an active participant in, rather than an innocent child swept into tragedy.

[InTheArena]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Raboniel was given a chain from Threnody as a gift from Mraize. That wasn't a Seon. Fused using Seons to communicate with Braize is just not fitting well. They are most likely sending Voidspren with messages or maybe using some form of the Surge of Transportation, Connection, or their songs. They might even be communicating through Odium directly. Everything sounds better than using Seons. It was said in RoW ch 64 epigraph:
 

 

This is the other very reasonable (and probably more likely) candidate. The theory definitly doesn't depend on Raboniel getting a Seon from Mraize. But it also fits the pattern as well, a red-herring possibility.

 

[Elder]

On 5/12/2024 at 3:58 PM, alder24 said:

I think the secret of Chana is tied to Ghostbloods and my strong suspicion that Shallan was a Ghostblood as a kid. In the SA 5 prologue Thaidakar said “The things we’ve started are in motion” and that was in the context of giving Gavilar what he wanted, return of Surgebinding - igniting a new Desolation. Ghostbloods somehow were involved in starting the True Desolation and what’s better way to do that than killing a Herald and sending it back to Braize to break? 

When Shallan’s mother screamed “she’s one of them,” she wasn’t referring to Radiants, she was accusing Shallan of being a Ghostblood. Shallan used a Seon in her childhood, Mraize knows awfully a lot about Shallan’s past and her family, he keeps calling “little knife” because she was a little kid when she joined, or started to worked for Ghostbloods and she was their weapon which started all of this. She remembers using a Seon because she used it to communicate with Mraize. 

Shallan might have knowingly worked to kill her mother, or she was totally oblivious to Mraize’s manipulations which ultimately put her in the position where she had to kill her mother. 

While the possibility of Shallan communicating with Seon is on the table, this is too vague and doesn’t touch the problem of Ghostbloods involvement in Shallan’s past.

 

 

Raboniel was given a chain from Threnody as a gift from Mraize. That wasn't a Seon. Fused using Seons to communicate with Braize is just not fitting well. They are most likely sending Voidspren with messages or maybe using some form of the Surge of Transportation, Connection, or their songs. They might even be communicating through Odium directly. Everything sounds better than using Seons. It was said in RoW ch 64 epigraph:

 

 

Really. Killing your mother, which you've loved dearly, causing your father to go mad and abuse your brothers, which ended up with him banishing one of them, killing your step-mother, crippling your brother and you killing your father isn't something terrible? Sure, it's easy to say that it was in "self-defense" etc, but that's us talking from the outside perspective, with no emotional attachment. I'm not saying she is a bad person, I'm saying that it's fully understandable why she believes she is a terrible person. Self-defense or not, it doesn't matter when she killed her parents and brought misery to her family.

For what it’s worth, we already know that Lin was a Ghostblood.  Mraize would have learned all about the Davar family from him and Luesh.  Doesn’t necessarily rule out your theory though.

[Isilel]

38 minutes ago, Elder said:

For what it’s worth, we already know that Lin was a Ghostblood

Yes, but from what we know so far it doesn't seem that he has been one before his first wife's death. Which is why he found himself in financial straits in the first place. We also don't know for how long Luesh has worked for Davars. 

Shallan didn't appear to be in a condition to do anything for the Ghostbloods during this period, though her recollections are, of course, always suspect. 

But it would make sense if some of Veil's skills turned out to be real, rather than created from a whole cloth, as seemed  previously. Also, would explain Mraize's belief that she was the "real" Shallan. I am also firmly convinced that he lied about certain aspects of Davar family tragedy and that the mother and/or her friend were connected to the Ghostbloods, rather than the Skybreakers. And that her attack on Shallan may have had other aims than the obvious. 

 

[Elder]

9 minutes ago, Isilel said:

Yes, but from what we know so far it doesn't seem that he has been one before his first wife's death. Which is why he found himself in financial straits in the first place. We also don't know for how long Luesh has worked for Davars. 

Shallan didn't appear to be in a condition to do anything for the Ghostbloods during this period, though her recollections are, of course, always suspect. 

But it would make sense if some of Veil's skills turned out to be real, rather than created from a whole cloth, as seemed  previously. Also, would explain Mraize's belief that she was the "real" Shallan. I am also firmly convinced that he lied about certain aspects of Davar family tragedy and that the mother and/or her friend were connected to the Ghostbloods, rather than the Skybreakers. And that her attack on Shallan may have had other aims than the obvious. 

 

True, but he wouldn’t need to work for Mraize all that long to tell what happened to his family.