Why didn't Vin ascend in fadrex city?

[mimbele]

I have finished the mistborn trilogy, something doesn't make sense and I searched through the internet but couldn't find any answer. 

So these are the conditions for Vin to become a god: Vin can draw upon the mist's power whenever she doesn't have her earring. We also know that she can only ascend as preservation (and become a god) after encountering the well of ascension.

That's why she didn't become a god when she drew upon the mists in the first book, she just got a little boost to help her kill Rakhek. That makes sense. 

But during the third book, when fighting Marsh in fadrex city, she can absord the power of mists for the second time. This time she meets the two conditions to become a god: doesn't have earring, check. Encountered well of ascension, check.

So why didn't she become a god? What was different the third time that made her a god? Did she have to simply be "more desperate"? Why did she just get a little boost in fadrex city instead of absorbing all the mist's power? 

[PanicPug]

It's been a while since I read and listened to the Mistborn books (including Secret History), but if I remember correctly:

Spoiler

Leras was still alive at that point and holding Preservation's investiture himself or the investiture was captured in the Elantrian orb thingy.

I think it's explained in Secret History, though I might misremember; as I said, it's been a little while.

[Ale the Metallic Conjurer]

The necessary conditions for becoming a god and the circumstances for Vin becoming a god are explained in Secret History.

Major spoilers for Secret History

Spoiler

Kelsier held the power of Preservation while Vin was in Fadrex City. Kelsisr needed to create an opportunity where Vin could Ascend without the earring on, which is why she didn’t Ascend until she fought against the Inquisitors in Luthadel.

 

[Treamayne]

3 hours ago, mimbele said:

I have finished the mistborn trilogy, something doesn't make sense and I searched through the internet but couldn't find any answer. 

So these are the conditions for Vin to become a god: Vin can draw upon the mist's power whenever she doesn't have her earring. We also know that she can only ascend as preservation (and become a god) after encountering the well of ascension.

That's why she didn't become a god when she drew upon the mists in the first book, she just got a little boost to help her kill Rakhek. That makes sense. 

But during the third book, when fighting Marsh in fadrex city, she can absord the power of mists for the second time. This time she meets the two conditions to become a god: doesn't have earring, check. Encountered well of ascension, check.

So why didn't she become a god? What was different the third time that made her a god? Did she have to simply be "more desperate"? Why did she just get a little boost in fadrex city instead of absorbing all the mist's power? 

33 minutes ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

The necessary conditions for becoming a god and the circumstances for Vin becoming a god are explained in Secret History.

Major spoilers for Secret History

  Hide contents

Kelsier held the power of Preservation while Vin was in Fadrex City. Kelsisr needed to create an opportunity where Vin could Ascend without the earring on, which is why she didn’t Ascend until she fought against the Inquisitors in Luthadel.

 

While what Ale said is a primary reason, even without the Secret History details there were other factors that also inhibited her ability to Ascend in Fadrex.

• She's inside a building, where only a tendril of mist can reach because her earring broke a hole in the window when she hit Marsh with it
• She's trying to Sooth Marsh, and when she draws on the Mists she get's distracted by:
  • The Mental "crack" of breaking through
  • The Vision of Ruin's plan
  • Marsh's screams as both of those happen
• The Koloss attacking the retreating soldiers
• Intent is vital in the Cosmere, and while she learned most of the rest of the puzzle in this scene, she still did not have an Intent to Preserve in this scene nor the time to think it through.

HoA Ch 65:

Spoiler

A Feruchemist, she realized. I’m in serious trouble.

People in the room were yelling, but she couldn’t hear them. Marsh’s hand—now large and beefy—gripped her throat, strangling her. Only flared pewter was keeping her alive. She flashed back to the day, many years ago, when she’d been held by another Inquisitor. Standing in the Lord Ruler’s throne room.

On that day, Marsh himself had saved her life. It seemed a twisted irony that she would struggle now, being strangled by him.

Not. Yet.

The mists began to swirl around her.

Marsh started, though he continued to hold her.

Vin drew upon the mists.

It happened again. She didn’t know how, or why, but it just happened. She breathed the mists into her body, as she had on that day so long ago when she’d killed the Lord Ruler. She somehow pulled them into her and used them to fuel her body with an incredible Allomantic surge of power.

And, with that power, she Pushed on Marsh’s emotions.

The wall inside of him cracked, then burst. For a moment, Vin felt a sense of vertigo. She saw things through Marsh’s eyes—indeed, she felt like she understood him. His love of destruction, and his hatred of himself. And through him, she caught a brief glimpse of something. A hateful, destructive thing that hid behind a mask of civility.

Ruin was not the same thing as the mists.

Marsh cried out, dropping her. Her strange burst of power dissipated, but it didn’t matter, for Marsh fled out the window and Pushed himself away through the mists. Vin picked herself up, coughing.

I did it. I drew upon the mists again. But why now? Why, after all the trying, did it happen now?

There was no time to consider it at the moment—not with the koloss attacking. 

Hope that helps.

[mimbele]

Thanks a lot for everyone who replied and thanks for putting spoiler warnings, I guess i should read this "secret history" that you guys mentioned.

On 5/8/2024 at 2:10 PM, Treamayne said:

Intent is vital in the Cosmere, and while she learned most of the rest of the puzzle in this scene, she still did not have an Intent to Preserve in this scene nor the time to think it through.

What you say makes a lot of sense. 

Is it mentioned anywhere that in Cosmere intent is vital? Or is it something that you generally pick up by reading the books? 

Edited May 9 by mimbele

[Treamayne]

59 minutes ago, mimbele said:

Thanks a lot for everyone who replied and thanks for putting spoiler warnings, I guess i should read this "secret history" that you guys mentioned.

That is up to you.

Secret History is essentially a companion story to things there were happening in the trilogy that could not be covered in the trilogy for various reasons. It's a combination of answers, explanations, and many more questions. 

If you intend to continue reading Sanderson, then please know that Mistborn: Secret History has spoilers for Bands of Mourning (Book 3 of Mistborn Era 2). If you do not intend to contiue, then reading Secret History may answer many of your lingering questoins. If you don't worry about some  consider spoilers, you could also read it soon (I just hope to make sure you are making an informed decision). If you do consider opening up to other Cosmere stand-alone books and/or series then:

59 minutes ago, mimbele said:

What is "Cosmere" though? (I only read the mistborn trilogy, I think I don't know a lot of things about the world that this story takes place in)

 I was just about to suggest you add to your profile or an Intro Thread a list of what you have or have not read (whichever list is shorter). Please correct me if I am wrong, but if I interpret this correctly - you have only read Mistborn: the Final Empire, Well of Ascension and Hero of Ages. 

There are many searchable Reading Order Threads (linked one is just one of my answers), but the short version is that Sanderson has a number of book series, and many (but not all) of those series are "Connected" in a shared universe that he calls "Cosmere." While each series has a distinct culture, setting and magic system - the fundamentals on which those things are built are shared (minor spoiler below). Each series is designed to be enjoyed alone[1], so you should not have to feel like you must read everything - but, if you do decide to read it all, you will find easter eggs, connections adn other tidbits that help portray a "story behind the stories."

Note 1: As get further along in the Cosmere, there is more and more "crossover" but it is still an attempt to make each independant for now, though that may change. 

Spoiler

At its most basic, the primary fundamental shared in the Cosmere is:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

The cosmere takes physics from our universe, and adds additional layers to it. Where we have energy and matter (simplified), the cosmere has additional building blocks that make reality. Investiture is one of these. It IS possible to change matter, to energy, to investiture, and back.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 5, 2015)

Along with the Three Realms - Spiritual Realm, Cognitive Realm and Physical Realm. As seen in Mistborn:

• The Physical Realm is where the stories take place
• The Cognitive Realm is where you see Vin interact with Ruin at the HoA Climax
• The Spiritual Realm is seen briefly when Elend burns Duralumin with Atium, but the effects of the Spiritual realm are throughout the series
  • Most specifically it is where the power of Allomancy comes from when a metal is burned. 

 

59 minutes ago, mimbele said:

Is it mentioned anywhere that in Cosmere intent is vital? Or is it something that you generally pick up by reading the books? 

Part of that is reading other cosmere works, but much of that is working to learn more of the behind the scenes to understand the fundamental, and reading Coppermind and Arcanum entries.

Spoiler

On 4/27/2023 at 5:05 PM, Treamayne said:

Using Coppermind and Arcanum:

• Go to the Coppermind, you can search a term in the upper right. On the top-right of the page (below the search bar) you will see a circle icon that denotes how "complete" the information is (e.g. solid green means it has all known information, split white/blck means unanswered questions, etc.)
  • Like any wiki, links to other pages appear the first time they are referenced
  • While reading you will find notes ([1]) that take you to the references at the bottom of the page. From there, if the reference is a WoB the link will redirect you to the Arcanum post.
  • One useful technique (at least on PC) is to click the [1] note to go to the references section, open the reference link in a new tab, then use the browser back button to immediately return to where you were reading.
• On the Arcanum, you can read all of the WoBs from a specific event by clicking: Discover > Events, then select an event.
• When looking at a Word of Brandon (WoB - or Peter/Isaac) in the Arcanum, you can:
  • Click on the event name to read all WoBs from that event
  • Click on a tag at the bottom to make a search of all entries with that tag - such as Ruin
  • The top right of the WoB has a "Copy" button, to easily copy the WoB contents to add to a forum post spoiler tag (please use soiler tags to keep posts visually short and let new people avoid spoilers if they desire)
• Also, on the Arcanum, you can search for keywords using the search bar in the upper left
  • While searching a tag, the advanced search will be at the top of the page, so you can keyword search within a specific tag (example: Searching "Well" in #Ruin tag)
• In any keyword or tag search the default view will be "accuracy"
  • Refine searches with Boolean (+/& for "and" to combine terms - e. g. well+ascension )
    • Note this method is unfiltered and will return more results than the tag and keyword search above
    • But they can be combined, by filtering a keyword and using a boolean search inside that tag.
  • You can be set that to "Oldest First" (avoiding spoilers) or "Newest first" (for recent additions) using the drop-down box
• For the Arcanum, learn more at Help and Navigation

Hope that helps

Non-Spoiler Examples:

Spoiler

Arcanum WoB  on the Mists:

Quote

mooglefrooglian

If metals shape the Investiture in Allomancy, causing a Steelpush or whatever, how is it that the mists can be used to perform the same feat? What is 'shaping' the inhaled mists into a Steelpush, if there's no metal "nozzle" to do so?

Brandon Sanderson

Consistently through the cosmere, once you have the power in hand and it has permeated you, will becomes your nozzle. [Redacted] The nozzle idea is important for Magics that are drawing power externally, as it keeps the power from overwhelming and destroying you. (Which, basically, happened to Vin at the end of the Trilogy--she got consumed by the magic. She became something new, now, so it didn't KILL her. It destroyed what she was, transformed her into something else.)

So you see magics like on [Redacted] Scadrial (Mistborn) where a specific nozzle is needed--as the power source is external, at least with Allomancy. Will and intent take a backseat, though still pop up on occasion. [Redacted] will and intent are more important, and what you are trying to do shapes the magic more directly.

[Redacted]

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 25, 2015)

Coppermind - Intention:

Quote

Intention is a Spiritual concept in the cosmere referring to a being's express will or purpose. Intention plays a vitally important role in the workings of most manifestations of Investiture in the cosmere.^[2][3]

 

@mimbele - updated

Edited May 9 by Treamayne
SPAG/Clarity

[EdgedancerJacob]

59 minutes ago, mimbele said:

Is it mentioned anywhere that in Cosmere intent is vital? Or is it something that you generally pick up by reading the books? 

Intent is a theme in many of the books (most magic across worlds requires Intent to work), but for a direct confirmation of this, see Rhythm of War.

[mimbele]

9 hours ago, Treamayne said:

That is up to you.

Secret History is essentially a companion story to things there were happening in the trilogy that could not be covered in the trilogy for various reasons. It's a combination of answers, explanations, and many more questions. 

If you intend to continue reading Sanderson, then please know that Mistborn: Secret History has spoilers for Bands of Mourning (Book 3 of Mistborn Era 2). If you do not intend to contiue, then reading Secret History may answer many of your lingering questoins. If you don't worry about some  consider spoilers, you could also read it soon (I just hope to make sure you are making an informed decision). If you do consider opening up to other Cosmere stand-alone books and/or series then:

 I was just about to suggest you add to your profile or an Intro Thread a list of what you have or have not read (whichever list is shorter). Please correct me if I am wrong, but if I interpret this correctly - you have only read Mistborn: the Final Empire, Well of Ascension and Hero of Ages. 

There are many searchable Reading Order Threads (linked one is just one of my answers), but the short version is that Sanderson has a number of book series, and many (but not all) of those series are "Connected" in a shared universe that he calls "Cosmere." While each series has a distinct culture, setting and magic system - the fundamentals on which those things are built are shared (minor spoiler below). Each series is designed to be enjoyed alone[1], so you should not have to feel like you must read everything - but, if you do decide to read it all, you will find easter eggs, connections adn other tidbits that help portray a "story behind the stories."

Note 1: As get further along in the Cosmere, there is more and more "crossover" but it is still an attempt to make each independant for now, though that may change. 

  Reveal hidden contents

At its most basic, the primary fundamental shared in the Cosmere is:

Along with the Three Realms - Spiritual Realm, Cognitive Realm and Physical Realm. As seen in Mistborn:

• The Physical Realm is where the stories take place
• The Cognitive Realm is where you see Vin interact with Ruin at the HoA Climax
• The Spiritual Realm is seen briefly when Elend burns Duralumin with Atium, but the effects of the Spiritual realm are throughout the series
  • Most specifically it is where the power of Allomancy comes from when a metal is burned. 

 

Part of that is reading other cosmere works, but much of that is working to learn more of the behind the scenes to understand the fundamental, and reading Coppermind and Arcanum entries.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Non-Spoiler Examples:

  Reveal hidden contents

Arcanum WoB  on the Mists:

Coppermind - Intention:

 

@mimbele - updated

Thanks a lot for the thorough explanation!