Big Hoid Theory

[L0N3STARR]

Quote

Rhythm of War chapter 99

"And who is that, Wit?" she asked. "Who are you really?"

"Someone," he said, "who wisely turned down the power the others all took-and in so doing, gained freedoms they can never again have. I, Jasnah, am someone who is not bound."

Gained something... Gained means he didn't have it before. That means he was bound, prior to refusing a shard.

My theory? Hoid either was the vessel of Adonalsium, or was a splinter of Adonalsium. More likely a splinter, since Frost is older than him. He was there for the shattering, because it was he, or rather because he was a part of, who was being shattered. 

Perhaps the shattering gave him his autonomy. 

[Treamayne]

4 hours ago, L0N3STARR said:

Gained something... Gained means he didn't have it before. That means he was bound, prior to refusing a shard.My theory? Hoid either was the vessel of Adonalsium, or was a splinter of Adonalsium.

Interesting idea. We do know he is a Dawnsliver, and was likely one of the four DawnVessels at the Shattering - so if he gave up the Dawnshard when the other Vessels gained their Shards, he would have "gained his freedom." 

Spoiler

More likely a splinter, since Frost is older than him. He was there for the shattering, because it was he, or rather because he was a part of, who was being shattered. 

Perhaps the shattering gave him his autonomy. 

Did you mean Sliver here? A Splinter is a chunck of investiture (that may or may not have gained independant sentience or sapience) such as Syl. A Sliver is a mortal being that has previously held all or part of a Shard (Rashek, Vin, Kelsier) - it is unknown if becoming the Vessel for an Avatar would make one invested enough to become a Sliver once you are separated from the Avatar. DawnSliver is the fan term (noncanon so far) for a Sliver that once held a Dawnshard (as opposed to an actual Shard (Hoid, Nomad). 

[L0N3STARR]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Did you mean Sliver here?

No, I meant to say splinter. Based on this WOB I was thinking that splinter was basically an avatar with full autonomy: 

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Alex M

What's the difference between avatar and Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson

These are all very weird terms that I'm just using.

*mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing.

An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do.

Brandon Sanderson

*realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies*

A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions  - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021)

But this WOB actually shows I was thinking wrong...

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Puck (paraphrased)

How is a Splinter different from a Sliver?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Let me see... You have met Splinters in Elantris, Warbreaker, and in Way of Kings. You have not met them in Mistborn.

Puck (paraphrased)

I feel like we know that. So, qualitatively, what's the difference?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Qualitatively, they're reverses of one another. A Sliver is a human intelligence who has held the power and released it. A Splinter has never been human.

Puck (paraphrased)

But it derives from a Shard's power.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes. That's not it completely, but there's at least something to think about.

Vericon 2011 (March 19, 2011)

So more accurately, my theory would be that he was an Avatar of Adonalsium. Though he could be a Sliver, I suppose, assuming the vessel of Adonalsium has changed, or even could change. But I was more thinking that he was a being spun off by Adonalsium for an express purpose, which is why I went with Splinter, but Avatar probably makes more sense as to why he wouldn't have had his independence in the first place. 

However, the Dawnshard theory is probably better, assuming Dawnshards existed before the shattering. 

Edited May 4 by L0N3STARR

[Treamayne]

56 minutes ago, L0N3STARR said:

he was an Avatar of Adonalsium.

No, An Avatar is still a piece of shardic Investiture. You want to say he was a Vessel of Adonalsium - or - a Vessel for an an Avatar of Adonalsium. 

Easy-button Summary (Spoilers):

Spoiler

• Spren = a type of (very small) Splinter with Sapience (e. g. Seon, Skaze, Honorspren, etc.) or sentience
• Sliver = A Mortal Intelligence that has held (some portion) of power, but is no longer a vessel (Characterized by the Spiritweb expansion that remains after holding the power and giving it up - e. g.  Vin, Rashek, Hoid)
• Avatar = A type of "Splinter" that is not separated from the power to which it is Connected, but does have an independant personality (e. g. Sand Lord, Trell, Patji, [possibly] Jaddeth, Nightwatcher** (in progress))
  • Avatars may have Vessels, like a Shard (e.g. Telsin)
• Splinter = A fully independant piece of one or more shards that has gained sentience or sapience (e. g. Stormfather, [possibly] The Evil)
• Shard = A full Shard of Adonalsium with Intent, that will either seek a Vessel or develop Sapience if left alone long enough
  • Dawnshard = Related to Shards, but slightly different - very little information so far other than that they can also have a Vessel and are the Commands that created the Cosmere (where Shards are the Intents that created the Cosmere)
• Adonalsium = However that being was classified as all Shards united.

Hope that helps

 

**Note: Nightwatcher

Spoiler

is only mentioned here based on the theory that Cultivation, as shown in Oathbringer, may be grooming her to become Cultivation's Avatar, rather than just a Splinter | similar to how Tanavast made Stormfather into "something more" by merging his Cognitive Shadow to the Splinter and giving Stormfather more of Honor's power. 

 

[alder24]

8 hours ago, L0N3STARR said:

Gained something... Gained means he didn't have it before. That means he was bound, prior to refusing a shard.

My theory? Hoid either was the vessel of Adonalsium, or was a splinter of Adonalsium. More likely a splinter, since Frost is older than him. He was there for the shattering, because it was he, or rather because he was a part of, who was being shattered. 

Perhaps the shattering gave him his autonomy. 

I don't even know where to start, but I think we know enough and have enough evidence to say that's not true. The best is to read Hoid's Coppermind page, as it compresses most of what we know - but it includes spoilers from all published books.

Looking at the quote, he gained freedoms relative to other Vessels who can't have those freedoms again. He had them before, but wasn't aware of them. By refusing to take up a Shard, he realized he has freedoms others don't anymore. He's an artist, a storyteller - playing with words is his job and hobby. He always tells things that mean something else. 

 From WoBs we know Hoid aged before the Shattering and that he was born naturally - this excludes him being a Vessel and a Splinter.

Spoiler

dgenio8 (paraphrased)

Was the Hoid we see born naturally, or was he created?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He was born naturally.

Lisbon signing (Nov. 7, 2016)

 

Spoiler

V_Spaceman

I was wondering if you could elaborate on a past wob. You said that Hoid and Frost are two of the oldest beings in the Cosmere. Does that include the vessels? Are the original 16 vessels younger than Hoid and Frost?

Brandon Sanderson

In the current outline, Hoid predates the others by a bit--he'd already started aging oddly before the Shattering. But that's not strict canon yet. (You can find evidence of it in Dragonsteel.)

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 6, 2018)

 

 If he were a Splinter, his investiture would have been assigned to one of 16 new Shards, thus he would have been bound once more and restricted, just like spren are. 

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

[...]

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Chaos

So, at the Forbidden Planet signing you said that when Adonalsium was Shattered, all Investiture in the cosmere was associated to one of the Shards... So, what happened with Adonalsium's spren on Roshar? Were those associated to Honor and Cultivation? What happened with them?

Brandon Sanderson

So they were very-- They were already associated to certain parts of Adonalsium and they went with those associations. There's a lot of Cultivation in all of the spren, particularly the natural spren.

Footnote: Chaos is referencing this exchange.
Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

 

Have you read any of the Secret Projects? Tress spoilers:

Spoiler

He said he was in a secret plot to kill a God - it's hard to be part of a plot to kill yourself, ch 39:

Quote

That is probably the craziest, most reckless thing I’ve ever heard someone say—and I was literally part of a secret plot to kill God.

And he said this to Adonalsium, this doesn't make sense if he was Adonalsium. ch 56:

Quote

“So far as I can tell,” he said, his voice growing very soft. “I’m sorry, Tress. I can’t let you face the Sorceress. I can’t. For your own good, you see.”
Ah, those words.
I’ve heard those words. I’ve said those words. The words that proclaim, in bald-faced arrogance, “I don’t trust you to make your own decisions.” The words we pretend will soften the blow, yet instead layer condescension on top of already existent pain. Like dirt on a corpse.
Oh yes. I’ve said those words. I said them with sixteen other people, in fact.

 

TSM spoilers:

Spoiler

He said he was a boy, he was young on Yolen before Adonalsium was killed. He can't be Adonalsium's Vessel, he can't be a Splinter. He talks a little bit about his childhood. ch 10:

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“There was a boy, once,” Wit began, “who looked at the stars and wondered if—”
Nomad deliberately turned and walked away. He’d heard far, far too many of this man’s stories to care for another.
“I was that boy,” Wit said from behind. “When I was young. On Yolen. Before this all began—before God died and worlds started ending. I I was that boy.”
[...]
“No lies, not right now,” Wit said, gazing up at the sky. “I can remember sitting on a rooftop. Looking up and wondering what the stars were.
“I assumed I’d never know. The town philosophers had talked themselves hoarse arguing the matter, as was often their way. Talk until you can’t talk anymore, and then hope someone will buy you a drink to keep the words flowing.” He smiled at Nomad, eyes twinkling. “Yet here I am. Millennia later. Walking between the stars, learning each one. I got my answers eventually. Yet I’d guess that, by now, you’ve seen more of the cosmere than I have.”

 

[Forts Board]

You guys should check out my Hoidonalsium theory on the craziest theories page. But honestly, it doesn't make any sense to me with the Character of Hoid and the way Brandon has written him. The thing that I think points the most against this is when Hoid tells someone (Is it Jasnah in RoW- my memory isn't perfect and I'm slightly too lazy to find it) That he saw what the other shards were taking and chose not to take it, therefore leaving him free.

[L0N3STARR]

On 5/4/2024 at 8:56 AM, Treamayne said:

No, An Avatar is still a piece of shardic Investiture. You want to say he was a Vessel of Adonalsium - or - a Vessel for an an Avatar of Adonalsium. 

I disagree. The description of Patji and the Obradai avatar both appear to be humanoid and sapient in nature, and Telsin was obviously a human. There's no reference to Telsin being a vessel of an avatar. 

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• Patji, located on First of the Sun; the origin and amount of its Investiture is unknown.^[16][5] It wrote a letter to Hoid where it dismisses his concerns over Odium.^[25][26][5]
• Obrodai avatar, younger than either of the above. She has been instilled with a great dislike of Hoid in order to prevent him from returning there.^[27]
• Telsin Ladrian, the leader of the Set. Telsin was Invested by Autonomy in order to facilitate either control or destruction of Scadrian society. In this function, both Telsin and Autonomy herself are occassionally referred to as Trell.

 

On 5/4/2024 at 10:02 AM, alder24 said:

Looking at the quote, he gained freedoms relative to other Vessels who can't have those freedoms again. He had them before, but wasn't aware of them. By refusing to take up a Shard, he realized he has freedoms others don't anymore. He's an artist, a storyteller - playing with words is his job and hobby. He always tells things that mean something else. 

I think that to both Brandon, and to Hoid, word choice is very important. He did not say he "maintained" freedoms, which he would have already had, were he just a man. He said he "gained" freedoms. I corrected in a comment above to say what I really meant was an avatar of Adonalsium. And we know from Telsin that an avatar can be someone who already exists. I think he was part of the shattering because he was an avatar, and after the shattering, he became unbound from Adonalsium.

Edited May 6 by L0N3STARR

[L0N3STARR]

17 hours ago, Forts Board said:

That he saw what the other shards were taking and chose not to take it, therefore leaving him free.

This is actually the quote I shared, and a big part of my point. 

Quote

Rhythm of War chapter 99

"And who is that, Wit?" she asked. "Who are you really?"

"Someone," he said, "who wisely turned down the power the others all took-and in so doing, gained freedoms they can never again have. I, Jasnah, am someone who is not bound." 

Not "leaving him free," but rather he "gained freedom." 

I'll check out your theory!