Child champion theory - with a twist

[coolsnow7]

The question we’ve all been more or less obsessed with since 2020 has been: what sort of loophole can TOdium cook up to weasel his way out of the contest?

I want to say off the bat that “force a tie” is a ludicrous suggestion and if Brandon goes this route I will be ludicrously disappointed. Hoid literally highlights this trick as he’s trying to write up the agreement - how exactly would he manage to overlook it? This clearly is not the loophole; we need to be more creative.

Dalinar’s legitimacy

It’s important to note that a key clause in the agreement is that Dalinar undertakes it as a representative of humanity:

 

Quote

Do you speak for the world Dalinar Kholin? Do you offer this for all of Roshar?

Oathbringer p. 552

Dalinar’s position as representative of humanity rests on his leadership of the coalition, which in turn rests on his role as de facto king of Alethkar. But Dalinar actually has no legitimacy to rule Alethkar; (speculating only slightly) if Jasnah withdrew Alethkar from the coalition and ordered Dalinar to resign from it as well, at a minimum Dalinar could no longer claim to represent humanity in his negotiations with Odium. But let’s recall, Jasnah doesn’t have much legitimacy either. She’s a woman and is not meant to be in line to the throne - she only has it because Gavinor is too young.
 

Well, what if Gavinor sides with Odium? Even if Gavinor doesn’t serve as Odium’s champion, Gavinor can claim that he was unfairly held from assuming the role of king, order Jasnah and Dalinar to withdraw from the coalition, and likely undermine Dalinar’s ability to negotiate with Odium at all. If he does serve as champion, then Dalinar winning would almost certainly destroy the coalition: everyone - Alethi population, Emuli and Thaylen leaders, everyone - would see Dalinar as ruthlessly trying to seize the throne from Gavinor by killing him under the pretext of this “contest of champions”, and consequently collapse Dalinar’s ability to represent humanity at all. Heads Odium wins the contest, tails the contest is void. 
 

There’s obviously a fair bit of speculation here, but at a minimum I think it represents the sort of direction we should take our theorizing for the next 8 months. (The other perhaps clearer option is that Dalinar holds “the remnants of Honor’s power” - unclear if he can negotiate if he no longer does. Odium may try to find a champion that threatens either the Stormfather or the bond…)

[alder24]

6 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

Dalinar’s position as representative of humanity rests on his leadership of the coalition, which in turn rests on his role as de facto king of Alethkar. But Dalinar actually has no legitimacy to rule Alethkar

Dalinar is NOT the king of Alethkar, he's not a ruler of Alethkar, he is the leader of Knights Radiant, the King of Urithiru, a separate state fully independent from Alethkar. As the King of Urithiru he represents the coalition, which doesn't rest on Alethkar's rulership at all.

6 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

if Jasnah withdrew Alethkar from the coalition and ordered Dalinar to resign from it as well, at a minimum Dalinar could no longer claim to represent humanity in his negotiations with Odium.

He represents the coalition, not humanity. Not every human nation on Roshar is a part of the coalition and this doesn't matter for Dalinar and Odium.

6 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

But let’s recall, Jasnah doesn’t have much legitimacy either. She’s a woman and is not meant to be in line to the throne - she only has it because Gavinor is too young.

She's 100% a legitimate ruler of Alethkar. She isn't a regent, she isn't ruling while Gavinor is growing up, she was in the line of succession, she is the queen and nothing else matters. Gavinor is the first in succession after Jasnah's death, he's her heir.

6 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

Gavinor can claim that he was unfairly held from assuming the role of king

He's a 5 year old kid. He doesn't even understand what a monarch is. He has no interest in being a king. You're just stretching the child champion theory very thin. 

6 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

order Jasnah and Dalinar to withdraw from the coalition,

He's not a king, he's not even a future king - Jasnah is the queen and will be even when Gavinor grows up. He has no right to do anything you propose.

6 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

and likely undermine Dalinar’s ability to negotiate with Odium at all

It's too late for that. The deal was made, the terms were accepted. 

6 hours ago, coolsnow7 said:

If he does serve as champion, then Dalinar winning would almost certainly destroy the coalition: everyone - Alethi population, Emuli and Thaylen leaders, everyone - would see Dalinar as ruthlessly trying to seize the throne from Gavinor by killing him under the pretext of this “contest of champions”, and consequently collapse Dalinar’s ability to represent humanity at all. Heads Odium wins the contest, tails the contest is void. 

While it would undermine Dalinar's position, the duel would be won by him, the terms would be enforced, Odium would have to withdraw. The contest wouldn't be void. People wouldn't say Dalinar is trying to seize the throne from Gavinor as he isn't sitting on any throne. He would be "just" a child murderer. But Dalinar would never kill a child, especially of his own blood. 

 

The only way I see Gavinor agreeing to becoming Odium's champion is by Taravangian giving him Moash to avenge his father. Gavinor wants to kill Moash and that's the only thing that he cares deeply enough to be deceived by Odium. But this would not threaten Jasnah's position as the Queen, nor Alethkar's membership in the coalition, as Gavinor is not the ruler of the country, isn't on the throne and Jasnah isn't a regent. It would only force Dalinar to surrender the fight, as he would never kill his nephew. RoW ch 16:

Quote

“If I have a sword,” Gav said, “nobody will be able to hurt me. I’ll be able to find the man who killed my father. And I could kill him.”

But even this is a huge stretch. Odium has no way of communicating with Gavinor - he lacks any Connection to him, nor is there anyone near Gavinor who serves Odium. Gavinor probably knows that Odium is the enemy, Dalinar was explaining to him a lot that both of his parents were killed by the enemy and most importantly, he's a kid. He has no reason to fight for Odium, even if Moash were to be offered to him, he needs to be a willing champion, he needs to understand what he is getting himself into. 

In my opinion,  if it were to happen, the child champion would be a big disappointment. This is the only loophole Taravangian has found? Really? I expect more than that. This simply is a weak solution that needs to be stretched thin to even work. Gavinor has barely been on pages, there is no set up for this whatsoever. There is only one Death Rattle that speaks about “the suckling child,” which Gavinor clearly isn’t.

[bmcclure7]

On 5/3/2024 at 8:46 AM, alder24 said:

Dalinar is NOT the king of Alethkar, he's not a ruler of Alethkar, he is the leader of Knights Radiant, the King of Urithiru, a separate state fully independent from Alethkar. As the King of Urithiru he represents the coalition, which doesn't rest on Alethkar's rulership at all.

He represents the coalition, not humanity. Not every human nation on Roshar is a part of the coalition and this doesn't matter for Dalinar and Odium.

She's 100% a legitimate ruler of Alethkar. She isn't a regent, she isn't ruling while Gavinor is growing up, she was in the line of succession, she is the queen and nothing else matters. Gavinor is the first in succession after Jasnah's death, he's her heir.

He's a 5 year old kid. He doesn't even understand what a monarch is. He has no interest in being a king. You're just stretching the child champion theory very thin. 

He's not a king, he's not even a future king - Jasnah is the queen and will be even when Gavinor grows up. He has no right to do anything you propose.

It's too late for that. The deal was made, the terms were accepted. 

While it would undermine Dalinar's position, the duel would be won by him, the terms would be enforced, Odium would have to withdraw. The contest wouldn't be void. People wouldn't say Dalinar is trying to seize the throne from Gavinor as he isn't sitting on any throne. He would be "just" a child murderer. But Dalinar would never kill a child, especially of his own blood. 

 

The only way I see Gavinor agreeing to becoming Odium's champion is by Taravangian giving him Moash to avenge his father. Gavinor wants to kill Moash and that's the only thing that he cares deeply enough to be deceived by Odium. But this would not threaten Jasnah's position as the Queen, nor Alethkar's membership in the coalition, as Gavinor is not the ruler of the country, isn't on the throne and Jasnah isn't a regent. It would only force Dalinar to surrender the fight, as he would never kill his nephew. RoW ch 16:

But even this is a huge stretch. Odium has no way of communicating with Gavinor - he lacks any Connection to him, nor is there anyone near Gavinor who serves Odium. Gavinor probably knows that Odium is the enemy, Dalinar was explaining to him a lot that both of his parents were killed by the enemy and most importantly, he's a kid. He has no reason to fight for Odium, even if Moash were to be offered to him, he needs to be a willing champion, he needs to understand what he is getting himself into. 

In my opinion,  if it were to happen, the child champion would be a big disappointment. This is the only loophole Taravangian has found? Really? I expect more than that. This simply is a weak solution that needs to be stretched thin to even work. Gavinor has barely been on pages, there is no set up for this whatsoever. There is only one Death Rattle that speaks about “the suckling child,” which Gavinor clearly isn’t.

He could send him a void spren or even an unmade. Look at that quote he wants the weapon to use to get vengeance what if a mysterious Spren showed up and offered him a bond on exchange for his obedience 

Edited May 6 by bmcclure7

[gokucauthon]

i thought his authority came from him being bonded to the Stormfather/remnants of Honor

[alder24]

1 hour ago, gokucauthon said:

i thought his authority came from him being bonded to the Stormfather/remnants of Honor

This is important, but that alone doesn't give Dalinar the authority to negotiate in the name of the entire Roshar. He needed to become a leader of the Coalition first. His Connection to the Stormfather and therefore Honor's remnants allow Dalinar to free Odium from Honor's imprisonment. OB ch 57:

Quote

Dalinar stood up. “I offer you a challenge of champions. With terms to be discussed. Will you accept it?”
Odium stopped, then turned slowly. “Do you speak for the world, Dalinar Kholin? Will you offer this for all Roshar?”
Storms. Would he? “I…”

[CtrlAltDepressed]

On 5/3/2024 at 3:04 AM, coolsnow7 said:

I want to say off the bat that “force a tie” is a ludicrous suggestion and if Brandon goes this route I will be ludicrously disappointed. Hoid literally highlights this trick as he’s trying to write up the agreement - how exactly would he manage to overlook it? This clearly is not the loophole; we need to be more creative.

Have you read the SA5 sample chapters?

Spoiler

In the Jasnah sample chapter, Hoid realizes what Odium has done to him (extracting memories) and further realizes that he needs to review the contract for loopholes as there most certainly is one. The loophole is definitely going to be VERY technical as Hoid requires the help of a shard to figure it out. Something like since Dalinar is bonded to the remnants of Honor, he is inadvertently entered into a previous agreement that Tanavast agreed to, and this ends up being his downfall. Like, completely as an example, if Tanavast agreed at some point that he would not directly fight against odiums forces, and Dalinar proceeds to be his own champion, he would have broken that agreement - thus releasing Odium. That sort of super technical thing. 

 

Quote

“I need to study that contract. There might be loopholes.”

“And if you didn’t see them?” She said. “You didn’t before.”

“You’re right,” he said. He took a deep breath. “You’re… you’re right. We need an expert, beyond even my considerable knowledge in the area.”

“Do you know any?”

“From your world?” he asked. “Only one, but she and I aren’t on speaking terms. I will, instead, see if I can contract an old friend.”