Emberdark Theory: Ambition was Splintered in Space

[JustQuestin2004]

After reading the summary for Emberdark, specifically the 'destructive echo of a dead god' part and the CE2E WOBs confirming that a Splinter of Ambition will be that echo.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Before the clash, the Evil was not the Evil. It is the clash that warped it. And Secret Project Five has a splintered piece of Ambition as a plot point.

We also know that Ambition was wounded in the Threnody System but fled and was Splintered elsewhere. We also know that she is 'technically not on a planet'. 

Spoiler

Pagerunner (paraphrased)

Ambition, the Shard *inaudible*. Is that the one you previously referred to as not on a planet?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Ambition would fulfill that requirement, but that's not the one I was referring to.

The titular 'Emberdark' is the parts of the Cognitive Realm that represent the void of space.

So my theory is that Ambition was splintered in the depths of space instead of on a planet like others. Which is how this 'Echo' will be part of the plot, since I doubt that the protagonists will be paying a visit to Threnody.

Now this will be interesting to contemplate because I have no idea what would happen if a Shard was Splintered in space away from any System or world to Invest in, would the Investiture just stay stuck in the Spiritual Realm? Would it stay together or drift apart? Would it have some effect on the Physical Realm like creating a star or some other type of weirdness? Would the Splinters not be bound by any world like most others would be?

Could Odium have intentionally Splintered Ambition off-world to make sure no one could take up the Shard and Ascend? It makes sense, he could have learned from killing Devotion and Dominion and have tried a different method.

 

Edited April 29 by JustQuestin2004

[The Stick]

Wasn't Ambition the first one Splintered. If Ambition truly was Splintered in space, clearly Odium didn't like the result if he felt the need to try something new on Devotion and Dominion.

[JustQuestin2004]

30 minutes ago, The Stick said:

Wasn't Ambition the first one Splintered. If Ambition truly was Splintered in space, clearly Odium didn't like the result if he felt the need to try something new on Devotion and Dominion.

Not quite, Odium had Ambition as number 1 on his hit-list but found Devotion and Dominion first. After somehow killing both of them he stuffed the bulk of their Investiture into the Cognitive Realm, which formed the Dor as he attempted to make it so no one could Ascend with them.

He found Ambition afterwards near Threnody. They and Mercy fought there which is why Threnody is super messed up.

[alder24]

12 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

So my theory is that Ambition was splintered in the depths of space instead of on a planet like others. Which is how this 'Echo' will be part of the plot, since I doubt that the protagonists will be paying a visit to Threnody.

We already knew that the fight between Odium, Mercy and Ambition happened not on the planet Threnody, but in space, after which she fled. From this alone we can speculate with high certainty that she was Splintered not on any planet, but in the void of space, far away from any system and planet. AU Threnodite system:

Quote

The direct clash between two Shards of Adonalsium had a profound effect on the planets of this system. Though the actual battle took place in the vast space between planets—and though the true contest happened mostly in other Realms—the ripples of destruction and change washed through the system

 

12 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Now this will be interesting to contemplate because I have no idea what would happen if a Shard was Splintered in space away from any System or world to Invest in, would the Investiture just stay stuck in the Spiritual Realm? Would it stay together or drift apart? Would it have some effect on the Physical Realm like creating a star or some other type of weirdness? Would the Splinters not be bound by any world like most others would be?

Probably the same thing that would happen to any Splintered Shard - it would start doing weird things. In the space where there is nothing around, it might start leaking as physical investiture, some gaseous nebula of raw investiture, maybe even red in coloration (wink wink). It would probably expand the Cognitive region of this part of space. Despite the fact that there is almost nothing in PR, you would step into a vast expansion of Cognitive Realm just because there is a lot of pressure from investiture of a Splintered Shard, leaking through and messing with space time of that region. It might become violent like Dor - raw power is dangerous - it might become self-aware etc. Basically everything we know about Splintered investiture of a Shard still stands in the vacuum of space, but this will certainly cause some weirdness.

Spoiler

Questioner

Can holders of Shards give them up voluntarily? If so, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium can give up their power if they wish.

As for what would happen...well, there are some variables in there. Kind of like the variables in what happens to a bucket of water if you dump it out. Depends on where it falls, how strong the wind is, what the air is like.

Power dropped like this, if left alone, could end up Splintering and turning into something like spren/seons. It could become something more like the Stormfather--a large, self-aware entity. It could become something like the Dor or many of the Unmade--something proto-aware, but not truly an individual. There are other possibilities as well, depending on lots of factors. (Are sapient beings involved? what is being done with the power--is it concentrated in the Spiritual Realm as normal, or is it being pushed somewhere else?)

FAQFriday 2017 (June 9, 2017)

Brandon also said that with Ambition something similar happened to pushing investiture into CR. So maybe after Ambition fled Threnody, she was unbound from this system, Odium Splintered her and partially pushed her investiture into CR, but because it wasn't bound to any system it just spread all across interplanetary space of CR, creating the Emberdark? That's a bit of a stretch in my opinion, but who knows. 

Spoiler

Questioner

So, Sel: Investiture has been pushed into the Cognitive Realm. Threnody: Has it seen something similar?

Brandon Sanderson

It has not seen... Okay. Yes, something similar. It would count. Something similar, yes.

Questioner

If that's the case, what would happen if you were to push Investiture into the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

It generally manifests either as a solid, liquid, or gas

Questioner

I thought about that. I was like, "We've seen that," but it seemed like a concentrated form. What if you did for like a whole Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

That would probably have disastrous effects. 

Questioner

That's why I was thinking for Threnody, but if it hasn't been that, then something else happened.

Brandon Sanderson

It hasn't been that. Something else happened.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

13 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Could Odium have intentionally Splintered Ambition off-world to make sure no one could take up the Shard and Ascend? It makes sense, he could have learned from killing Devotion and Dominion and have tried a different method.

Possible. He did learn and try something different.

Spoiler

Argent

...The reason Odium dealt with the Selish Shards in the way that he did, whether that was primarily because he was inexperienced in Splintering and so he knew that he wanted nobody to take the Shards--

Brandon Sanderson

There were better ways he could have done what he did.

Argent

And he then learned at least a little bit better?

Brandon Sanderson

He learned at least a little bit better.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

 

12 hours ago, The Stick said:

Wasn't Ambition the first one Splintered. If Ambition truly was Splintered in space, clearly Odium didn't like the result if he felt the need to try something new on Devotion and Dominion.

Ambition was killed after Devotion and Dominion:

Spoiler

Argent

Some of the few Shards Rayse Splintered included Ambition, I believe, Dominion, and Devotion.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Argent

And those were all way back, in the history. So, we know that the Shards' personalities overrides the Vessel's personality over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Strongly influence, and depending on the individual, override.

Argent

Okay. So did Rayse choose those Shards because--

Brandon Sanderson

He went after Ambition first, but didn't find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

Argent

Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel? Like did he hate the person?

Brandon Sanderson

In this case it was the Shard, primarily, that drove him--

Argent

Oh, he was maybe afraid the Shard would grow too powerful and take over--

Brandon Sanderson

He was afraid that this Shard that would rival him. And so he's like "This one is number one on the hit list. We're taking down Ambition." But then he got trapped in the Rosharan system.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

[Leuthie]

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

He was afraid that this Shard that would rival him. And so he's like "This one is number one on the hit list. We're taking down Ambition." But then he got trapped in the Rosharan system.

Do we have confirmation that it was Odium that killed Ambition? Because this quote suggests otherwise.

[alder24]

14 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Do we have confirmation that it was Odium that killed Ambition? Because this quote suggests otherwise.

I don't know if it was said directly that Odium killed Ambition, but most evidence points to that conclusion. I think this WoB also strongly suggests it was Odium. The "But then he got trapped" refers to his hit list and inability to kill more Shards. And we know that Odium would have gone after Autonomy later, and since Splintering of Devotion and Dominion, he learned to do it better - how did he learn if not by Splintering Ambition?

Endowment also implies in her letter to Hoid that it was Odium that killed Ambition. He mortally wounded Ambition during their clash at Threnody AU:

Quote

Long ago, soon after the Shattering, Odium clashed with (and mortally wounded) the Shard Ambition here. Ambition would later be Splintered, though that final act took place in a different location.

I find it possible that it was Mercy who mercy killed mortally wounded Ambition, but I think this new WoB also implies it was Odium, as he didn't expect it to be that hard. In the end I still think it was Odium who did something to Ambition that was also similar to what happened to Devotion and Dominion (which we know was done directly by Odium, so if it’s similar Odium had to do it, as no other Shard would know how to repeat that).

Spoiler

Questioner

I had a question about Odium's intent for going after Ambition. Obviously, with Devotion and Dominion teaming up, he didn't want a twosome over there. Are we ever gonna learn more about the background on Threnody? 'Cause Khriss implies that there was always Investiture there, before the clash. So I'm looking for a little bit of information about the Evil before the Admiral's background story.

Brandon Sanderson

Before the clash, the Evil was not the Evil. It is the clash that warped it. And Secret Project Five has a splintered piece of Ambition as a plot point. Some of these books... All that stuff I said about not having to know multiple magic systems? That goes out the window for things like Secret Project Five. Those are books that are about that. You will find out some more there; it's gonna take me a long time to get to what actually happened with Ambition, why, and things like that. Know that Odium was not expecting it to be as hard as it was and ended up severely wounded in that clash.

C2E2 2024 (April 26, 2024)

 

 

[Arkangel]

On 4/28/2024 at 9:03 PM, JustQuestin2004 said:

So my theory is that Ambition was splintered in the depths of space instead of on a planet like others. Which is how this 'Echo' will be part of the plot, since I doubt that the protagonists will be paying a visit to Threnody.

Now this will be interesting to contemplate because I have no idea what would happen if a Shard was Splintered in space away from any System or world to Invest in, would the Investiture just stay stuck in the Spiritual Realm? Would it stay together or drift apart? Would it have some effect on the Physical Realm like creating a star or some other type of weirdness? Would the Splinters not be bound by any world like most others would be?

I can picture Ambition's Investiture coming together as solid godmetal asteroids that are drifting through the Cosmere, creating inter-realmatic weirdness as they go. Maybe getting lodged in the CR or crashing into a planet in the PR. This could be the bit involved in Emberdark - one of these Ambi-roids.