Query on Kaladin's Windspren

[BinarySecond]

I was looking into Shardplate spren on found the following on the coppermind

 

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Shardplate#Known_Shardbearers

It states "The windspren in question where already following him long before he swore the Fourth Ideal."

 

I've often wondered about this and have wanted to ask B$ for a while but never had a chance; if the Spren that make up his armour are the same ones that fly with him, that were helping him split the storm in Oathbringer.

 

There isn't a reference included as to where the information on the Spren came from - Has this been confirmed by Brandon these are the same spren? It leads me to wonder if the plate spren as always with the radiant; like Shallan being accompanied by creation spren.

[Treamayne]

21 minutes ago, BinarySecond said:

I was looking into Shardplate spren on found the following on the coppermind

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Shardplate#Known_Shardbearers

It states "The windspren in question where already following him long before he swore the Fourth Ideal."

I've often wondered about this and have wanted to ask B$ for a while but never had a chance; if the Spren that make up his armour are the same ones that fly with him, that were helping him split the storm in Oathbringer.

There isn't a reference included as to where the information on the Spren came from - Has this been confirmed by Brandon these are the same spren? It leads me to wonder if the plate spren as always with the radiant; like Shallan being accompanied by creation spren.

I think the person who worte that part of the article jumped to an unsupported conclusion. We know that Windspren gather around Kaladin as early as WoR, but we have no indication that it is the same group of Windspren in each instance - and I cannot find a WoB or any other reference that says they are the same thoughout multiple scenes (until after the plate has been formed). 

I'll ask the Coppermind Keepers. . . 

Edited April 23 by Treamayne
Clarity

[BinarySecond]

14 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

I think the person who worte that part of the article jumped to an unsupported conclusion. [...] I cannot find a WoB or any other reference that says they are the same thoughout multiple scenes (until after the plate has been formed). 

That was also my conclusion, I spent a few hours going through WoBs with various search terms.

It is something I'd really like to find out; I'll keep putting it Brandon's stream Q&As and keep hoping.

 

Edit: I'd settle for a RAFO!

Edited April 23 by BinarySecond
Additional information to my post.

[alder24]

2 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

I was looking into Shardplate spren on found the following on the coppermind

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Shardplate#Known_Shardbearers

It states "The windspren in question where already following him long before he swore the Fourth Ideal."

I've often wondered about this and have wanted to ask B$ for a while but never had a chance; if the Spren that make up his armour are the same ones that fly with him, that were helping him split the storm in Oathbringer.

There isn't a reference included as to where the information on the Spren came from - Has this been confirmed by Brandon these are the same spren? It leads me to wonder if the plate spren as always with the radiant; like Shallan being accompanied by creation spren.

RoW ch 114:

Quote

Kaladin stepped up beside Rlain and rested a hand on his shoulder. Rlain couldn’t feel the Plate, though it was apparently always there—invisible, but ready when needed. Like a Shardblade, but made up of many spren.

In my opinion this suggests that once you swear the 4th Ideal, you've got the same group of Lesser Spren hanging around you, ready to become your Shardplate at your command. But that's only after you swear the 4th Ideal, before you just attract any Windspren close to you, and that is what Kaladin was doing before RoW in my opinion. 

It even makes a little sense. Kaladin and Syl need to be close together, otherwise Syl will start losing herself and they will lose awareness of each other, as seen in RoW. What if Kaladin was in a place with no wind and no Windspren? He would be unable to summon his Shardplate, if he just summons random spren that are close by, as they should also work by proximity like Syl does. It makes more sense that once you obtain a Shardplate, those spren are staying close to you, so no matter the location you're in, you can summon them.

 

[BinarySecond]

37 minutes ago, alder24 said:

In my opinion this suggests that once you swear the 4th Ideal, you've got the same group of Lesser Spren hanging around you, ready to become your Shardplate at your command. But that's only after you swear the 4th Ideal, before you just attract any Windspren close to you, and that is what Kaladin was doing before RoW in my opinion. 

I think I would find this acceptable; for any other radiant. I wonder if Kaladin is different somehow. The Stormfather certainly acts like he's different (Son of Tanavast).

[The Stormfather]

 

3 minutes ago, BinarySecond said:

The Stormfather certainly acts like he's different (Son of Tanavast).

Who are you calling different? *I've done this joke so many times.*

I think that those Windspren yanked from Shadesmar when he swore each ideal, as the groups of them seem to get bigger and then at 4th there was enough of them to form plate. Just a theory, no actual evidence.

[Quantus he/him]

1 hour ago, alder24 said:

RoW ch 114:

In my opinion this suggests that once you swear the 4th Ideal, you've got the same group of Lesser Spren hanging around you, ready to become your Shardplate at your command. But that's only after you swear the 4th Ideal, before you just attract any Windspren close to you, and that is what Kaladin was doing before RoW in my opinion. 

It even makes a little sense. Kaladin and Syl need to be close together, otherwise Syl will start losing herself and they will lose awareness of each other, as seen in RoW. What if Kaladin was in a place with no wind and no Windspren? He would be unable to summon his Shardplate, if he just summons random spren that are close by, as they should also work by proximity like Syl does. It makes more sense that once you obtain a Shardplate, those spren are staying close to you, so no matter the location you're in, you can summon them.

 

I think this WOB confirms that it's the same set of Platespren once you swear the 4th. The catch is really that the benefits of the Ideals spill over some to before you actual say the Words of a given Oath, and that includes some Defensive capabilities were happening.  And he had Windspren following him to unusual places (ie In Shadesmar) as early as OB.  It's not confirmed but it would not surprise me that the same Windspren had been following him ever since he was "ready" for the 4th in OB, and their presence and/or budding Bond is what was giving him the spillover 4th ideal protection in RoW.  

 

 

Quote

 

irongnome (paraphrased)

If a Radiant summons their Shardplate on Braize will it work?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well it depends, in the Physical realm or Cognitive?

irongnome (paraphrased)

Physical.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

And you are asking about Shards?

irongnome (paraphrased)

Plate specifically.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Ah, okay. So if they have already been able to summon the Plate before it will work, but it will fail if it’s their first time.

New York Comic Con 2022 (Oct. 8, 2022)

 

 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, The Stormfather said:

I think that those Windspren yanked from Shadesmar when he swore each ideal, as the groups of them seem to get bigger and then at 4th there was enough of them to form plate. Just a theory, no actual evidence.

Don't forget though, that Windspren are primarily Physical Realm entities and rarely ever appear in Shadesmar (even partially). Oathbringer Ch 108:

Spoiler

Quote

He leaned forward, watching the mandras float beneath them. A small flock of gloryspren zipped past. They took a moment to fly up and spin about him before heading to the south, faster than the ship.

The strange pinpricks of light continued to whirl around him. Sailors gathered behind, making a ruckus until the captain pushed through and gaped.

“What are they?” Kaladin asked, nodding toward the pinpricks of light.

“Windspren.”

“Oh.” They did remind him a little of the way windspren would fly on gusts of wind. “They’re common. Why is everyone so upset?”

“They’re not common on this side,” the captain said. “They live on your side, almost completely. I … I’ve never seen them before. They’re beautiful.”

<Snip>

The captain glanced at the windspren, which were still spinning about Kaladin, leaving trails that drifted the entire length of the ship before fading.

 

17 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Mis-clicked a few times, dont mind me...

@Quantus - did you know you can hide your post with the "three dot" menu (top right corner), if it was a mistake?

 

Edited April 23 by Treamayne

[The Stormfather]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

Don't forget though, that Windspren are primarily Physical Realm entities and rarely ever appear in Shadesmar (even partially). Oathbringer Ch 108:

  Hide contents

 

 

 

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Huh.

I just sort of thought there were more and more windspren with each ideal. In tWoK there was a few with Syl that kept appearing, though we don't know they were the same spren. In WoR there was a large group of them when he swore the 3rd and flew around. It said something like 'there were dozens of them flying behind him(Paraphrased)' And then in RoW there was a bunc hfo them which eventually formed Plate.

It kind of makes sense that by gathering a lot of  them he gathered enough investiture to form plate, but, this theory doesn't really work because if there wasn't enough windspren earlier to form plate, you could ask 'Why couldn't they form a few of the plates without making the full suit?"

But, counterpoint ' Why couldn't Kaladin do  full gravitational lashings in tWoK?" 

Because he didn't know how, and because he wasn't ready.

[Treamayne]

14 minutes ago, The Stormfather said:

I just sort of thought there were more and more windspren with each ideal. In tWoK there was a few with Syl that kept appearing, though we don't know they were the same spren. In WoR there was a large group of them when he swore the 3rd and flew around. It said something like 'there were dozens of them flying behind him(Paraphrased)' And then in RoW there was a bunc hfo them which eventually formed Plate.

I think it can still have merit to the degree that as his bond increased, the number he could draw did increase (Some in the Chasms learning in WoR, More fighting Szeth (after third oath), even more turning the Highstorm Winds to protect the captured humans, etc. )it's just that they were not being pulled from Shadesmar, but from the environment (and were therefore a different group each time - until he was able to form Plate). 

16 minutes ago, The Stormfather said:

But, counterpoint ' Why couldn't Kaladin do  full gravitational lashings in tWoK?" 

Because he didn't know how, and because he wasn't ready.

Well, with a possible side of "Some Surges are limited by the level of Oaths." (such as Skybreakers cannot access Division until the Third Oath)

This, of course, relies on the interpretation that Squires (whom are First Oath - without a bond) are "borrowing" the Third Oath abilities of their Radiant; which is distinctly different from First Oath Kaladin in WoK, and partly different from Second Oath Kaladin in WoR. 
 

[The Stormfather]

1 minute ago, Treamayne said:

I think it can still have merit to the degree that as his bond increased, the number he could draw did increase (Some in the Chasms learning in WoR, More fighting Szeth (after third oath), even more turning the Highstorm Winds to protect the captured humans, etc. )it's just that they were not being pulled from Shadesmar, but from the environment (and were therefore a different group each time - until he was able to form Plate). 

Well, with a possible side of "Some Surges are limited by the level of Oaths." (such as Skybreakers cannot access Division until the Third Oath)

This, of course, relies on the interpretation that Squires (whom are First Oath - without a bond) are "borrowing" the Third Oath abilities of their Radiant; which is distinctly different from First Oath Kaladin in WoK, and partly different from Second Oath Kaladin in WoR. 
 

Yeah, this theory isn't really perfectly sound, but I do find it interesting how he gathered more and more Windspren over time. I find this odd. 

Your point about the Squires makes sense, but, you can draw evidence from Teft and Lopen, who were flying around and doing all that stuff before their chapters where they swore the 3rd, but when they did have a spren of their own. Were they still technically squires, or is learning new surges just based off of education?

I have no storming idea.

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, The Stormfather said:

Your point about the Squires makes sense, but, you can draw evidence from Teft and Lopen, who were flying around and doing all that stuff before their chapters where they swore the 3rd, but when they did have a spren of their own. Were they still technically squires, or is learning new surges just based off of education?

I have no storming idea.

Actually, I think that for Windrunners, the surge of Gravitation is "unlocked" at the Second Ideal (Kal in WoR is second ideal when trying to learn - and it's considered "odd" (but necessary) that Division is withheld until third Ideal for Skybreakers because of how dangerous it can be). 

So, In Oathbreaker we actively see Teft learning Graviation as a Windrunner Squire, he becomes a Second Ideal Windrunner off-screen, and is now using his own Surges (while trying to avoid the Third oath with Phendorana). Lopen, likewise spent Oathbringer learning Surges as a Squire and kept trying to bond Rua; but his words were never accepted (still a Squire a/o Battle of Thaylen Field); until the aftermath when his oath is finally "meant" and accepted while talking to the wounded. 

[Treamayne]

Sorry for the double post, did not realize I was still the most recent post when replying to the OP.

12 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

I was looking into Shardplate spren on found the following on the coppermind

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Shardplate#Known_Shardbearers

It states "The windspren in question where already following him long before he swore the Fourth Ideal."

That "note" has been fixed, and now has references. 

Edited April 23 by Treamayne
Clarity

[Master Silver]

9 hours ago, The Stormfather said:

 

Who are you calling different? *I've done this joke so many times.*

I think that those Windspren yanked from Shadesmar when he swore each ideal, as the groups of them seem to get bigger and then at 4th there was enough of them to form plate. Just a theory, no actual evidence.

I really like that idea. In fact, I think when he was a kid and picked up that staff for the first time there was a wind spren (or maybe it was Syl) there. And that Wind spren, if it wasn't Syl has always been there and the group, as you said just gets larger. 

[Duxredux he/him]

I believe this is relevant to the conversation:

Quote

irongnome (paraphrased)

If a Radiant summons their Shardplate on Braize will it work?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Well it depends, in the Physical realm or Cognitive?

irongnome (paraphrased)

Physical.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

And you are asking about Shards?

irongnome (paraphrased)

Plate specifically.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Ah, okay. So if they have already been able to summon the Plate before it will work, but it will fail if it’s their first time.

New York Comic Con 2022 (Oct. 8, 2022)

This implies to me that the Plate spren don't constantly follow the Radiant around, and are not bound to them as they are when they are first summoned as Shardplate. Once summoned, then they are directly associated to that specific Radiant and will become dead spren should the Radiant forsake their Ideals.

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Duxredux said:

Once summoned, then they are directly associated to that specific Radiant and will become dead spren should the Radiant forsake their Ideals.

But without at least some of the Deadeye baggage (RoW I-1):

Spoiler

The young Horneater woman was never without it. She was the first of her people in … well, a very, very long time to have a Shard.

It was pretty. Maybe Syl should have hated it, as she did Shardblades, but she didn’t. It was kind of a corpse—well, lots of corpses—but not as offensive. The difference, she supposed, was attitude. She could sense contentment, not pain, from the Plate.

 

[Duxredux he/him]

45 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

But without at least some of the Deadeye baggage (RoW I-1):

  Hide contents

The young Horneater woman was never without it. She was the first of her people in … well, a very, very long time to have a Shard.

It was pretty. Maybe Syl should have hated it, as she did Shardblades, but she didn’t. It was kind of a corpse—well, lots of corpses—but not as offensive. The difference, she supposed, was attitude. She could sense contentment, not pain, from the Plate.

 

Is that Cord's Plate? The very special set that for whatever reason was reserved for a protector of the Dawnshard if I'm remembering right? That one may be an outlier, either because of its unusual origin or because it is worn by someone who swore an oath to use it to protect the Dawnshard. It may be in a state of recovery similar to Maya.

[Treamayne]

28 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Is that Cord's Plate? The very special set that for whatever reason was reserved for a protector of the Dawnshard if I'm remembering right? That one may be an outlier, either because of its unusual origin or because it is worn by someone who swore an oath to use it to protect the Dawnshard. It may be in a state of recovery similar to Maya.

Possible, but also note that Syl, who repeatedly mentions how much she does not like Deadeye Shardbaldes has never remarked on any Plate before this point. And it was not a lack of exposure, since she was around Shardplate from before Kal's first Oath (Sadeas wearing it on ever bridge run). Also, Kal never heard dead plate scream like a Deadeye blade. Also, WOB about Bonds with non-sapient spren:

Spoiler

 

Quote

 

Questioner

What happens to the spren the Parshendi bond when they switch form? So say if they're in soldier form, and they switch over to mate, what happens to that spren?

Brandon Sanderson

The spren is released.

Questioner

So when they took on void, they didn't kill their previous spren?

Brandon Sanderson

No, they don't kill when they-- No. That's a good question. Nope.

Questioner

Do those spren evolve in any way into something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Those spren that they are bonding with are generally what we call non-sapient spren, and so, no, and also the spren are barely aware that they-- they're bonded--- those spren, the non-voidspren, right? Like when they're bonding, generally what's happening is how... It's a symbiotic relationship, right? And the spren that gets bonded to them, it's just kind of like, "Oh, this is my life now! This is just normal. This is what's happened." The same thing happens with spren involved in greatshells and things like this. This is a natural part of the natural cycle for those spren.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

Quote

KiManiak

So, for Shardplate, when Kaladin killed the Shardbearer, which we know is Helaran, in Way of Kings, Amaram remarked that Amaram knew the Shardbearer was dead both because the Shardblade didn't disapper and also because the Shardplate began to fall off of him. And so my question is, is there some type of "lesser" bond between Shardplate and its wearer, like is it in sync with the wearer's lifeforce or--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Firefight San Francisco signing (Jan. 17, 2015)

Granted that is a different (but possibly related bond - since we know Plate also has a bond), but it seems to imply that non-sapient spren pulled into the physical realm are just generally. . . content to be where they are.