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Concerning Faster-than-Light travel in the third trilogy


Pringles

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I know it's impossible to tell at this point (I also don't know if it's been talked about here before), but the use of Allomancy and "faster-than-light" travel through space is really bugging me (from a physics point of view).

 

The thing is, given that nothing in our universe as we know it can travel faster than light, there are only a few logical possibilities of what happens: 1) Time as we know it stops; 2) You travel so fast that planets die within a short amount of your time (for instance, the light speed in Star Wars would've made it so Vader was dead by the time they made it to the Death Star); or 3) You teleport instantaneously. I've been trying to figure it all out by myself, but besides being given the fantasy element, there has to be some sort of scientific logic behind it. I can't really see myself believing any of it otherwise.

 

Or am I just digging too deep at too early of a time?

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There's definitely a science angle on it, but we don't know what the mecha-Allomancy from the Southern Continent will be, which, by certain WoBs*, is key. It has something to do with the energy of stuff exiting time bubbles...* or something like that. I'm not speculating too much on that, but there's a TON of threads here that try to decipher the mystery of Scadrian FTL. 

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I read an article recently that talked about going faster than light without actually moving in space. It was something about expanding the fabric of space behind the ship, and compressing in in front of the ship so it just moves space through it like a bubble. Not sure of the science or anything behind it, but it would take care of the problems with time.

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@Curiosity (I see what you're trying to do there with those asterisks... :P )

 

"Mechallomancy" is speculated to be "key" FTL, but hasn't actually been called such by Brandon, to my knowledge. So far as the "lost energy" WoB goes, we're not sure that that has to do with time bubbles.

 

-

 

@OP

 

Oh yes of course at some higher level FTL makes no sense. For one any actual method of communicating (let alone traveling) faster than light violates causality.

 

But on a lower level (the level of "hey can't I just go a bit faster than light? Please?") it's not all that bad. Just find a way to get around relativity's effects and you'll avoid twin "paradoxes" and the like.

 

Here's a few threads that talk about FTL.

 

EDIT:

 

@Khyrindor

 

Here you go. Some have suggested that a little handwavery or the like can use time bubbles to achieve the same effect.

Edited by Kurkistan
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I read an article recently that talked about going faster than light without actually moving in space. It was something about expanding the fabric of space behind the ship, and compressing in in front of the ship so it just moves space through it like a bubble. Not sure of the science or anything behind it, but it would take care of the problems with time.

 

This is the premiss of spatial "Warp" based travel.

There are several other forms of theorized FTL including Dimensional Hopping- traveling in a seperat or sub demension where the rules of spacetime behave different.

Spatial folding/Tesseract- Different from warp in that a warp drive bends the local area while Tesseracts bend large segments of Spacetime.

Colocation/entanglement - Two spaces share certain attributes forming a quantum link between both sites and allowing transit from one to another for anything that enters these sites.

I'm incline to believe that sandersons FTL will be based around a blend of these things thanks to his preference for creating unique spins on tropes.

 

Maybe somthing about how Allomancy/Feruchemy behaves in the Cognitive realm on Scadrial or the difference in the realms rules when using these powers?

That said I believe there is a word of brandon explaining that we do NOT have enough information yet to understand the process, Just hints good enough for theorycrafting.

Edited by Lord Tavash Shar
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Yes. I think.....

 

There is also the experimentation with electricity and metalminds that we still know nothing about. I really want to know how that works.

 

So far as I know that's all and only mentioned in the MAG; the AoL supplement in particular is acknowledged as being mostly just Crafty winging it.

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So far as I know that's all and only mentioned in the MAG; the AoL supplement in particular is acknowledged as being mostly just Crafty winging it.

 

... I really don't think Brandon would have let them go to print with something that was at least possible. He would have given them some notes or info to help things along.

 

He enjoys gaming to much himself to let them go off the deep end on this.

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From Brandon

In order to make The Alloy of Law setting work as a game, many of the mechanics make assumptions about and extrapolate upon the magic system presented in the books. All are in the full spirit of the novels; not all are canon.

 

That's the only "from Brandon" in the book, btw. The Crafty guys have also mentioned in other fora that they had less communication with Brandon & Co. this time around, if I recall correctly.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Well sorry if Brandon himself saying that everything's not necessarily canon isn't enough to cast doubt.  :rolleyes:

 

I'll keep an eye out for the stuff from Crafty.

 

EDIT: If you'd like some examples that highlight this not being gone over with a fine-toothed comb by Peter, a character description features the moon prominently and the supplement thinks they have the telegraph.

 

EDIT 2:

 

Hm. All I can find at the moment is this, which is weaker than I'd recalled. I might have just been thinking of that quote and not remembering it quite right, though.

 

Still: MAG != Reliable for this kind of stuff. Maybe electricity can interact with Feruchemy, maybe it can't. The fact that the possibility is mooted in the MAG does exceptionally little to sway my opinion either way, is the thing.

Edited by Kurkistan
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The Telegraph was invented in the 1830's and 40's while the light bulb was not invented till 1878. While this is not earth and technology can develop differently the Telegraph is a much simpler device electronically and was in wide use for intercontinental communications after the transatlantic line was first run in 1866.

 

We know they have lightbulbs. I would be EXTREMELY surprised to ask brandon if they have the Telegraph and hear "No.". I would actually start to wonder what happened as metallurgy of the AoL era would facilitate much easier and more effective telegraph lines then we had in the same time period.

 

We also need to find out if they are using alternating or direct current.....

 

Edit: I'm a Physicist/Network Engineer with a horrible writing and Gaming addiction. A friend and I went so far as to produce go-carts and Armored Troop transports during a D&D 3.5 Campaign using the core magic item creation feats and Spell list.

I tend to think about "How can it be done." not if and sometimes make the assumption that other science/magic minded people would do the same thing. 

Edited by Lord Tavash Shar
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[...]

We know they have lightbulbs. I would be EXTREMELY surprised to ask brandon if they have the Telegraph and hear "No.".

[...]

 

Well, not Brandon...

 

Source:

The major advantage of telegraphs in the short term comes from financial gain from up-to-date knowledge of far-flung markets, political information, or timely military intelligence. None of these are a very large concern when the vast majority of the population is concentrated in a single city that contains just about all of the major markets and politics that there are on the world. The rest of the population is also fairly close, either in the Elendel Basin or not worth talking with (and still not that far away) in the Roughs. There also doesn't appear to be any warfare so far on Scadrial.

This.

The technology level is meant to be about 1910 New York, but their electrical wires are mostly underground, and technology lags 1910 in certain areas and is ahead in certain areas (especially metallurgy). Let's say that internal combustion engines are at 1910 level, metallurgy is decades ahead, and anything involving electricity is decades behind. Also, I have no idea at all about the current state of medicine.

Edited by Kurkistan
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  • 2 months later...
  • 1 year later...

The Alloy of Law introduced Cadmium and Bendalloy Mistings into the Mistborn universe, known as Pulsers and Sliders respectively, and boy oh boy are they important to this method!


A Cadmium-burning Pulser can make time slow down in a bubble around themselves, while a Bendalloy-burning Slider can make time speed up in a bubble around them. Pulsers are incredibly useful in day to day life—who hasn’t wanted more time in the day?—but Sliders may be the ones who hold the key to faster-than-light travel.


Time and space are intertwined aspects of each other. The most massive objects in the universe—our Sun, neutron stars, and black holes—warp space and time naturally by exerting massive amounts of gravitational force upon the space around them. Sliders and Pulsers, however, get to do this without having to summon enough power to crush a solar system. This is an extremeenergy cheat on the part of these Mistings!


By altering the flow of time around them, Cadmium and Bendalloy Mistings are also altering the flow of space around them. Visualized, it looks like the effects an Alcubierre drive has on the fabric of space. (Pictured above.) According to the Ars Arcanum of the Mistborn series, Bendalloy Sliders contract time around them, speeding it to one-eighth of its normal rate, which means that they’re also contracting the space around them to one-eighth of its size. The occupants in that “space” travel at the same rate, but they have less “space” to cross, so the end result is that they arrive at their destination sooner. This also means that Cadmium Pulsers, by slowing time around themselves, are expanding the space around them, presumably to eight times its size. They are also traveling that “space” at the same rate, but there is now eight times more space to traverse before they arrive at their destination.


To an observer outside of these bubbles (in this case, the rest of the universe) a spaceship traveling through a Pulser’s bubble would appear to slow down within the bubble, while a spaceship traveling in a Slider’s bubble would appear to speed up.


Like Coinshots, Mistings who generate time-altering bubbles have certain limits. They are stationary and do not move with the Misting that generated them, and they’re small, on average five feet in diameter. To make a Slider’s spacetime-speeding bubble have any real effect, we’d need the bubble to be longer than the ship itself, so let’s figure out how big our ship is.


The length of a NASA shuttle orbiter is only 37 meters, but we’d most likely want a bigger ship (and a star to steer her by…) and a nice buffer of space before and after the ship itself, so we’d want a ship 50 meters passing through a bubble 150 meters in diameter. So far, a Slider bubble of this size has not been generated in the Mistborn books, but it’s possible one could be created with assistance from one or more Nicrosil Nicrobursts.


As we read above, minimum speed for a spaceship attempting to escape the gravitational pull of its own solar system is essentially 45,000 meters per second, but we’d actually want our spaceship to go slower than that. There are two reasons: One, in case something goes wrong with the Slider on board, the spaceship won’t be at risk of rocketing out of its solar system to certain doom. And two, the spaceship needs to be traveling slowly enough to be successfully captured by the gravity of its destination solar system.


As opposed to an Alcubierre drive, where the bubble travels with the spaceship, our ship has to move through a stationary bubble that does not travel with the ship. Our craft needs a precise speed, slow enough to achieve through conventional means but quick enough to take full advantage of the 150 meter bubbles.


Let’s set 25,000 meters per second as the speed a Scadrial spaceship would be traveling as it hits the first bubble generated by its onboard Slider/Nicroburst combo. (This is also roughly the speed of Earth’s quickest probes.) From the perspective of those inside the spaceship, their craft would traverse this distance in only .006 seconds. From the perspective of an outside observer (and space itself), the spaceship would travel through the bubble in only .000750 seconds, one-eighth of the time experienced by those inside the bubble.


The spaceship would emerge from the bubble 131.25 meters ahead of where it should be. .006 seconds is an instant for those onboard the spaceship, so the Slider/Nicroburst combo could generate and collapse bubbles as fast as they could think and jump the ship ahead 131.25 meters every time.


It would take 2,285,715 such bubbles to move the ship 1 light year, which is unfathomably exhausting for a Misting, but possible. (It is probably even more possible for a machine Invested with a Slider’s power.) If a bubble was generated once per second, it would only take 26 days and 11 hours to travel one light year, all while only traveling at a speed of 25,000 meters per second!


It gets even better, though. If two Slider/Nicroburst combos overlap their bubbles, then their warp effects are, at minimum, doubled. (We don’t know the actual multiplication factor, so let’s go with the minimum.) The ship would jump 140.625 meters in only one-sixteenth the time, more than halving the amount of time needed to move the ship one light year! A team of four Slider/Nicrobursts working in tandem would more than halve that number, making one light year a distance of only a week. If you keep doubling the number of Slider/Nicroburst combos, you keep halving the time. It doesn’t take long to get to an ideal combination of Sliders, Nicrobursts, and travel time, though. All in all, you would only need 32 Slider/Nicroburst combos to bring the distance of one light year down to a journey of a single day. Ideally, you would have twice that, so that you could have two alternating waves of Sliders and Nicrobursts that renew their stored metals while the other wave burned theirs. This isn’t at all an impossible task. In fact, it’s one that the people of Scadrial, as we know them from the current Mistborn Wax & Wayne series, are probably only one century away from achieving!


copy-paste FTW!

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  • 3 weeks later...

It's been canonized that time bubbles will move alongside a big enough object. Wayne's bubbles move with a train. I think they would be able to move with a space ship. Only problem might be make large enough, long lasting enough bubbles. They'd probably need insane amounts of bendalloy, nicrosil/duralumin to attemp this. Maybe the Allomancy grenades will help things along though.

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It's been canonized that time bubbles will move alongside a big enough object. Wayne's bubbles move with a train. I think they would be able to move with a space ship. Only problem might be make large enough, long lasting enough bubbles. They'd probably need insane amounts of bendalloy, nicrosil/duralumin to attemp this. Maybe the Allomancy grenades will help things along though.

Spoilers for BoM:

Why not just ettmetal drives like the weight ones in the airships, but powered by bendalloy and chromium? They can likely last long enough, with a sufficient amount of ettmetal, and you don't need a person constantly powering them. Not sure how large a bubble you could make with those, or even for sure if they work with Allomancy (though I believe that was indicated), but they seem like a practical choice here.

jW

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It's been canonized that time bubbles will move alongside a big enough object. Wayne's bubbles move with a train. I think they would be able to move with a space ship. Only problem might be make large enough, long lasting enough bubbles. They'd probably need insane amounts of bendalloy, nicrosil/duralumin to attemp this. Maybe the Allomancy grenades will help things along though.

 

There was a thread where very similar idea was discussed. The two problems that came up with this were that (1), the journey would still take nigh-eternity for people inside the ship, and (2), if the "living spaces" of the ship would be coated with Aluminium so that the journey would take shorter, the acceleration of the ship itself would kill everyone aboard.

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I know it's impossible to tell at this point (I also don't know if it's been talked about here before), but the use of Allomancy and "faster-than-light" travel through space is really bugging me (from a physics point of view).

 

The thing is, given that nothing in our universe as we know it can travel faster than light, there are only a few logical possibilities of what happens: 1) Time as we know it stops; 2) You travel so fast that planets die within a short amount of your time (for instance, the light speed in Star Wars would've made it so Vader was dead by the time they made it to the Death Star); or 3) You teleport instantaneously. I've been trying to figure it all out by myself, but besides being given the fantasy element, there has to be some sort of scientific logic behind it. I can't really see myself believing any of it otherwise.

 

Or am I just digging too deep at too early of a time?

we know of stuff that is faster than light. Quantum entagelment yo

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

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