Did Hoid bond a cryptic not because of the surges but because of the oaths?

[Sythrin]

I recently had a thought about the nature of Hoids bond. It always baffled me why Hoid bonded with a Liespren as he already has lightweaving abilities. Yes they work differently and could compliment each other but it still felt like a loss.

But when I read the order descriptions from #saythewords I saw that Lightweavers are different from the other orders, in that, that they do not speak oaths (except the first) and say truths. Which makes them quite unbounded by restrictions like other orders. 
And Hoid deliberatly decided not to get a Shard as it would chain him in ways that the others did not see. He did not want to be bounded by things.

What do you think?

[Quantus]

I dont think so? Truths certainly would have made it more appealing than the rest but there's still no real upside to them (beyond the Character Growth they'll theoretically inspire).  Rosharan Lightweaving is Significantly easier and/or more powerful than what's left to him of Yolish Lightweaving from what we've seen and he's said. Soulcasting might be one of the single most versatile powers in the Cosmere, and WOB says he understands enough to be properly wary of it. The Radiant package in it's own right is pretty nice, with Blade and Plate and one of the most powerful brands of Spiritual Healing around.  And I think he'll come to appreciate a Little Buddy around busting his chops and keeping the loneliness from seeping in too deep.

But also, he moves around via some unexplained Fortune shenanigan, and it doesn't seem to be in his control so much as a feeling of where and when he Should Be.  So he may not exactly have had a real choice so much as a Fated opportunity to seize or pass up.  

 

Edited April 22 by Quantus
Missed a spot...

[Sythrin]

But my point why he bonded a spren in general but why specifilly bond with a liespren. If he wanted soulcasting, then Inkspren are considered probably even better. Especially with the surge of transportation, which is a realy great power.

[alder24]

5 hours ago, Sythrin said:

I recently had a thought about the nature of Hoids bond. It always baffled me why Hoid bonded with a Liespren as he already has lightweaving abilities. Yes they work differently and could compliment each other but it still felt like a loss.

The answer is quite simple, he's a storyteller, there is no better fitted spren for him than a Cryptic. They complement each other very well. And it makes telling stories so much easier - too easy. RoW ch 80:

Quote

Wit made the family appear, working in the yard—the farmer’s wife, who was taller than the farmer. A youth, lanky and assiduous. A daughter who would someday share her mother’s height. A baby who toddled around the yard, tended by them all as they did their chores.
“This,” Wit noted, “is almost too easy.”
“Too easy?” Kaladin asked, absently taking another bite of stew.
“For years, I’ve had to make do with hints of illusions. Suggesting scenes. Leaving most to the imagination. Now, having the power to do more, I find it less satisfying."

 

5 hours ago, Sythrin said:

But when I read the order descriptions from #saythewords I saw that Lightweavers are different from the other orders, in that, that they do not speak oaths (except the first) and say truths. Which makes them quite unbounded by restrictions like other orders. 
And Hoid deliberatly decided not to get a Shard as it would chain him in ways that the others did not see. He did not want to be bounded by things.

What do you think?

That's very likely. I can see this being a reason why he chose a Cryptic rather than some other spren. However he most likely just sensed an opportunity and took it. OB ch 68:

Quote

“Wit,” she said, “why are you here? In the city?”
“I’m not completely sure.”
“Please. Could you just answer?”
“I did—and I was honest. I can know where I’m supposed to be, Shallan, but not always what I’m supposed to do there.”

Being a Lightweaver will be hard for Hoid, because he doesn't want to admit those truths to himself:

Spoiler

Questioner

In Yumi and the Nightmare Painter, Design mentions being a Shardblade. So my question is, what oaths has Hoid swore?

Brandon Sanderson

We'll RAFO how many of them, but he is doing the Lightweaver thing, which was kind of hard for him, honestly; he had to admit some truths he didn't want to.

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

1 hour ago, Sythrin said:

But my point why he bonded a spren in general but why specifilly bond with a liespren. If he wanted soulcasting, then Inkspren are considered probably even better. Especially with the surge of transportation, which is a realy great power.

Because he has to bond with a willing spren. Inkspren don't bond at all, Ivory is the only one exception, the rest don't want to get involved and die. Many Orders would not fit him, he's not a Windrunner, or a Skybreaker. He's a former Danwshard, it left a residue on his soul, he has access to many invested arts, that's many different investitures in his soul - all of this is something that might drive a spren away from him. So he needs someone that would want to bond him, someone desperate enough who wouldn't care about all of this, and from an order that fits Hoid the most - that's Cryptic in my opinion, Cryptic that is on a verge of being caught by Odium's forces, desperate enough to bond Hoid to escape his fate. OB epilogue:

Quote

“Look,” he whispered to the wall, “you don’t have many choices right now.”
Above, the Fused turned to look at him.
“I know you’d rather have someone else,” Wit said, “but it isn’t the time to be picky. I’m certain now that the reason I’m in the city is to find you.” [...]
“It’s either go with me now,” Wit said to the wall, “or wait it out and get captured."

 

Spoiler

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So I could be wrong, but a Hemalurgic spike, when you use it and become a savant it does damage to your Spiritweb, right?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes Hemalurgy always hurts you.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So say you go to Roshar and you give somebody a Hemalurgic spike for some Allomantic power, don't care what, and you use it to become a savant. Does that qualify them as 'broken' enough to become a Radiant? As long as they are also following the Ideals to attract a spren.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

So becoming a Radiant is a spectrum of terminologies. It... probably, but you would have to find a Radiant who would, or a spren who would be willing to touch that, okay? It's going to drive them back.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So would it also affect your probability of becoming an Elantrian?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yeah it would affect your ability to become anything else, yes.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay, so would it be a positive effect, negative effect...? Because I was like, it gives you cracks in your Spiritweb.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It does give you cracks in your Spiritweb.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So it's easier for Investiture to get in. Does it make it easier for other Investitures to get in?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It would make it... yes. It's going to drive spren away. So what it's really going to make easier for, there, is spren and Investiture that doesn't care.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay, so Investiture doesn't care but spren do.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Investiture might care depending on if it's part of a Shard-- if it has intent and things like this.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

So it might let Stormlight in easier than a Breath, type thing.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I'm saying it might let Odium in easier than Syl. Because Syl would care, and Odium would not care.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Okay cool.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Alright, so it could be a really bad thing, is what I'm trying to say to you.

Djarskublar (paraphrased)

Yeah that's cool. I just want to know more about gold too. Gold Allomancy too. Because Miles was doing some funky stuff.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Miles was doing some funky stuff.

Dark Talent release party (Sept. 6, 2016)

 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Soulcasting might be one of the single most versatile powers in the Cosmere, and WOB says he understands enough to be properly wary of it. The Radiant package in it's own right is pretty nice, with Blade and Plate and one of the most powerful brands of Spiritual Healing around.  And I think he'll come to appreciate a Little Buddy around busting his chops and keeping the loneliness from seeping in too deep.

I feel like Hoid of all people could soulcast without being a Radiant. At the heart of it, you are convincing an object to change itself, and providing the power needed to make that change. I dont know why he would need to become a Radiant for this. 

 

The package is nice in its own right, but we have to remember who we are talking about. Probably the only thing that can kill Hoid is a Shard or Nightblood. He doesnt have much use for plate. The blade would be useful as he can craft it into whatever he wants (a typewriter for example), but he doesn't seem to really need that. 

 

Personally, my head canon is that he chose to bond Design for 3 main reasons.

• Design was there and ready to bond someone, it was really easy for Hoid to take Elhokar's place and he did so because he was curious what the radiant experience is like
  • sort of like 'might as well?'
• His fortune ability was clearly leading him to do this and he trusted that even if he doesnt know why
• Hoid is ultimately a sympathetic person and did not want to see Design hurt / corrupted 

fourth unlikely reason: he wanted access to easy investiture. i think this is unlikely because he of all people could learn how to absorb stormlight without a bond

[alder24]

1 hour ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I feel like Hoid of all people could soulcast without being a Radiant. At the heart of it, you are convincing an object to change itself, and providing the power needed to make that change. I dont know why he would need to become a Radiant for this. 

No, you need a power for that, you need a Surge of Transformation to Soulcast. You can't do that without that. Just having investiture is not enough. 

[CtrlAltDepressed]

12 minutes ago, alder24 said:

No, you need a power for that, you need a Surge of Transformation to Soulcast. You can't do that without that. Just having investiture is not enough. 

I am totally on board with this, but what piece specifically do you need Surge of Transformation for? 

 

The object is accepting investiture from you to power the change into the other object. 

 

Do you need the surge to be able to talk to the object? That seems unlikely since the object has its own soul. 

 

Do you need the surge for the object to use your stormlight? That doesnt seem likely either as you could have it use a gemstone instead.

 

Does the object 'borrow' the surge access from you to transform itself? That doesn't seem to make any sense. 

 

The surges are unlike Allomancy in that the surges exist regardless of and predate the shattering. I know that Honor placed restrictions - is this an example of that? Before the Radiants everyone / anyone had access to the surges and we hear Raboniel speak on this (all the burned cattle and people). 

 

Since the surge is just a phenomenon and not necessarily its own magic system (Radiants are a magic system but Gravitation for example exists with or without Radiants), what piece of the puzzle do you need Transformation for?

 

This seems very similar to awakening. You dont need Nalthian breaths to awaken, awakening is just a phenomenon of the cosmere and Nalthian breaths make it very easy. Anyone with the right amount of investiture and knowledge can awaken with an alternative power source. 

 

As another example - the surge of Gravitation is tricking your spirit into thinking there is a massive object in the desired direction. Hoid especially is really good at manipulating Connection, why couldn't he hack this as well?

[listerfeend]

12 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Does the object 'borrow' the surge access from you to transform itself? That doesn't seem to make any sense. 

I suspect the answer is close to this. I may have to borrow some terms here, but it seems to me that access to the Surge is necessary because the object in question doesn't have the ability to change itself normally. Essentially, I'm thinking some kind of Connection is made between the Surgebinder and the object in question, giving the object access to the Surge of Transformation via the Binder. Or it goes the other way, the Binder is providing, for lack of a better term, the "knowledge" of how to transform. 

I suspect that, if restrictions were placed on this Surge, it would most likely be the requirement to get consent from the Object before the transformation occurs. This is completely my own theory, but I suspect that, prior to Honor's restrictions, someone with the Surge of Transformation could transform anything at will, without the intermediate step of convincing the object to change. If that is the case, then Soulcasting still works in the same way, just with a consent check beforehand. The change comes from the Surgebinder, it's their own Intent and Command that is creating the new object, and their access to the Surge facilitates that.

[alder24]

5 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I am totally on board with this, but what piece specifically do you need Surge of Transformation for? 

To Soulcast. To give them Stormlight, transport your image of change into them and to change their soul. It's not just talking, it's commanding and pushing through the resistance of their soul to make drastic changes in it - something that requires certain abilities. The change itself is the Surge of Transformation. You are changing something important in their soul and they can't just do it, that has to be done via some ability, the Surge of Transformation.

9 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Do you need the surge to be able to talk to the object? That seems unlikely since the object has its own soul. 

It's possible. You need to be at least invested to sense what impression the bead is carrying, it's possible you need to have specific abilities to connect between CR and PR - Shallan is able to move into CR due to the Surge of Transformation. 

11 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Do you need the surge for the object to use your stormlight? That doesnt seem likely either as you could have it use a gemstone instead.

Stormlight has to come through you. That's why Soulcasters are turning into essences they use.

12 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Does the object 'borrow' the surge access from you to transform itself? That doesn't seem to make any sense. 

it's you who makes a transformation, not the object. The object nearly accepts it, but this acceptance isn't required, as Jasnah proved when she Soulcasted people.

16 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

The surges are unlike Allomancy in that the surges exist regardless of and predate the shattering.

Yes and no. The Surge of Transportation represents one of the fundamental forces of Cosmere, the power of Creation itself, just like Allomancy does. The specific Surge used by Knights Radiants is manifestation of this Surge filtered through Honor and Cultivation.

Spoiler

Kaimipono

Allomancy is fueled by Preservation's body? How exactly does that work? And how does that interact with Atium—it's fueled by both gods' bodies?

Brandon Sanderson

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

[...]

Hero of Ages Q&A - Time Waster's Guide (Oct. 15, 2008)

 

Spoiler

Kimbobhi

Is it possible to Surgebind using gaseous Investiture other than Roshar's?

Brandon Sanderson

So here's the thing. It depends on your definition of Surgebinding. Surgebinding would be the Rosharan definition of all of the magics. They would call the Metallic Arts Surgebinding. You are binding the powers of creation, which the word "Surge" is that word translated from Rosharan into English, that's what the word means in Rosharan, is the powers of creation. The fundamental forces which inspired me to make this. So they would consider all of them to be Surgebinding. And that's just what you're doing, you are binding and using those powers.

Other people, including Khriss, would not agree with that definition. They would say: Surgebinding is specifically binding, through the Nahel bond, the spren, the specific manifestations of Investiture on Roshar, by using specific sets of oaths in order to gain access to those powers. So she would say: no, that is not Surgebinding when someone uses Allomancy. I would lean with her on that one, but the other one's a viable definition.

What you're really asking is, can someone, one of the Rosharan, the Knightly Radiant Orders, could they power that with a different form of Investiture from a different planet? And yes, this is possible, though there might be some difficulties in making it work, which I haven't explained entirely yet. But yes, this is possible. In fact, it is possible to power all of the different magics with the different forms of Investiture. That is a possibility

This is one of the reasons why Mraize and Thaidakar are so interested in Stormlight. Because if you could get Stormlight off, and you can crack that... just way easier to get Stormlight than it is to get the other ones. Like Breath, you could consider easy, but hard to morally harvest; in fact, perhaps impossible. If you want ethical, sustainable magic, then Roshar is a much better bet than some of the other places that you could...

Adam Horne

Does that mean Mraize and [Thaidakar] want an ethically sustainable...?

Brandon Sanderson

They're really interested in the sustainable part. I would say that they both would say "yes" to that question. They would consider their actions to be, on an ethical spectrum, at least in the neutral area, perhaps. Others would disagree with that.

Adam Horne

Where would they fall, philosophically speaking, like Kantianism, or?

Brandon Sanderson

I'd have to think about that. That's a good question. Certainly not as far on the utilitarianism side as someone like Taravangian, who's about as far as you can go. But Jasnah is pretty far on that side, also. Though she considers her version more of a "what is the greatest good I can do with any action I take?" (Which one is that? It's not Kantian, but you know what I mean.) That is a little on the utilitarian side. Not a little, that's... not as far as Taravangian, but that's definitely, yeah. They would maybe be in between those two, maybe. Depends. They're not the same individual, they would have different lines.

There's gonna be (let's just say) future books that explore Thaidakar's relationship with that. But you have seen in other books the lengths that Thaidakar is willing to take in order to achieve his goals. He is not far off from Taravangian in some of those things that he has done.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of god.

Questioner

Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Questioner

I was wondering how much-

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017)

 

20 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

I know that Honor placed restrictions - is this an example of that? Before the Radiants everyone / anyone had access to the surges and we hear Raboniel speak on this (all the burned cattle and people). 

On Ashyn that was because of a Dawnshard.

21 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Since the surge is just a phenomenon and not necessarily its own magic system (Radiants are a magic system but Gravitation for example exists with or without Radiants), what piece of the puzzle do you need Transformation for?

Ability to access that force of creation. That's the piece of the puzzle you're missing. You can't use it if you can't access it. You need to bond spren or be an Elantrian to do that.

 

 

However I will give you that - Dawnsingers were able to do that. They could shape and change things with their songs, so this might be possible for some with special abilities. But now it's forgotten and Hoid is not a Dawnsinger. RoW ch 67:

Quote

Remember, the stones said. The ground in front of her stopped rippling and formed shapes. Little homes made of stone, with figures standing beside them. Shaping them. She heard them humming.
She saw them. Ancient people, the Dawnsingers, working the stone. Creating cities, tools. They didn’t need Soulcasting or forges. They’d dip lengths of wood into the stone, and come out with axes. They’d shape bowls with their fingers. All the while, the stone would sing to them.
[...]
“How?” Venli asked. “Radiants didn’t exist then. Spren didn’t bond us … did they?”
Things are new, the stones hummed, but new things are made from old things, and old peoples give birth to new ones. Old stones remember