Color Drained Metals

[Quantus he/him]

We have lots of answers about how Color Drained Gems behave, but I still have questions about Color Draining Metals, and what it might do. The biggest complication is this WOB that says the Color Drain represents the Spiritual change Forcing a physical one, and that it can  do things like driving Chemical changes to make the color change work, creating new (though presumably still mundane) materials.  

1. What substance do you get when you drain the Color from elemental metals like Gold or Copper?
2. Is the Color Drain surface level or does it affect the object all the way through?
3. Are Invested Objects like Metalminds resistant or Immune to Color Drain?  If not can a Coppermind or Goldmind be rendered unTappable by draining it's color (the way it would be if you alloyed it). 

 

 

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tallakahath

So, on Nalthis, in the Warbreaker universe, when the color's pulled out of something, is that a physical or chemical change or is that a perceptual change?

Brandon Sanderson

It is actually a physical change, but the spirit of the thing is changing, and it's filtering through to the Physical Realm.

tallakahath

So, if I do that on a carrot, I can break beta carotin? If I do that on a piece of metal, I can reduce it and charge my battery that way?

Brandon Sanderson

Potentially, yeah! Yeah, that would work, you're changing it's Spiritual nature.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

 

 

 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

1. What substance do you get when you drain the Color from elemental metals like Gold or Copper?
2. Is the Color Drain surface level or does it affect the object all the way through?
3. Are Invested Objects like Metalminds resistant or Immune to Color Drain?  If not can a Coppermind or Goldmind be rendered unTappable by draining it's color (the way it would be if you alloyed it). 

1. You get Gold and Copper, but with a different color. The Spiritual Change for color does not change the molecular structure of the material.

Spoiler

Shadow Guardian

If an Awakener were to go to Roshar and were to bleed the color from a gem would that gem still be able to store Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Bleed the color from a gem… Um ye-ye-ye-yeah. This would interfere with its function on Roshar. It would probably still be able to hold Stormlight…

Shadow Guardian

Might not be able to be used for Soulcasting?

Brandon Sanderson

Yea-- It's going to… You know what no it would just change it. It would just bleed the color from it and turn it into a dusty quartz or something like that. That's probably what it would end up with, a dusty quartz. Because the molecular structure doesn't matter as much as the color for Roshar. So yeah you would probably still be able to hold Stormlight because a diamond can but I don't know, quartz might cut it. You'd probably end up with something that's not going to work so well.

Questioner 2

What about a fabrial that needs a specific--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah a specific-- A ruby wouldn't work any more, and it would let go whatever is captured inside.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

2. We don't have a good confirmation, but it appears to be through the entire object, dependant on size. For example, the Squirrel that Vasher Awakened turned grey throughout (blood, muscles, etc) - but the God King's Ziggurat only bled to gray to a depth and diameter to meet the color requirement for the Awakening (it was implied to move in all directions from point-of-contact until the amount of required color was fulfilled

3. Yes. For example, a living organic host cannot provide color for Awakening because the <plant/animal/person>'s innate investiture is enough to prevent the color drain. However, it may be possible that a color-drained Metal would no longer function for Feruchemy (or Hemalurgy?). We know that Allomantically, it is the molecular structure that is important (and that has not changed) - but Feruchemy is not using the metal as a path to drawing investiture from the spiritual realm. So, it is possible that Feruchemy would be affected by a color drained metal the same way that Fabrials are affected by color drained gems. 

Spoiler

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Brandon Sanderson

<snip for length>

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, Compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

<snip for length>

Open The Fridge Interview (Nov. 16, 2011)

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Questioner

With Soulcasting, we know what can be Soulcast based on the color of the gem. Does-- When Awakening, say you have emerald, green, Pulp. If you were Awakening straw or some other form of plant matter, if you used a source of green for the color, would it be, say, more efficient than using red?

Brandon Sanderson

So I haven't built that into the magic system yet. Part of me feels like I should have. But I did not. I want color to be relevant to each of the cosmere magics. It's kind of an essential part of it, and it's part of where we stray more into the magical sense. Like, in my books we treat magic scientifically but they're still magic. And it was a thing when I was building Stormlight, I'm like, "So the difference between these two gemstones is a matter of a slight impurity and chemically they are 99% the same thing. Am I actually going to have them do different things or not?" And my judgement call was yes, because I want color to be relevant in the cosmere.  But by that point, when I was really getting that magic system to work, I had already written Warbreaker. And I had known that I wanted color to start being a big part. I'd already written Mistborn where I worked in color in different ways

But I didn't work that into the Warbreaker magic. I felt like it already had enough restrictions. I would say my worry about the Warbreaker magic is the color feels tacked on. Like, the magic could work without it, narratively, so why is it there? And that's the question I asked myself while I was building; that's the question I continue to ask myself when I continue to work on-- for that magic system, to make sure it works for me. But my instincts say adding restrictions like that, particularly when they weren't covered in the first book, feels like the wrong way to go. It'd be like retconning the magic. It's something I considered.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

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mooglefrooglian

You've said previously that the molecular structure of metals serve to act sort of like the Aons in AonDor. Why, then, can mists power Allomancy? Shouldn't the metals themselves be the things causing the powers? And if metals don't cause the effect, how can a non-Feruchemist burn a metalmind that has been 'unlocked' through identity tricks and get a boost of an attribute without Feruchemist sDNA?

Brandon Sanderson

I was trying to figure out how to answer this, and then I realized while driving to get a hair cut that you were regarding this wrong in a fundamental way. Remember, the source of power for Allomancy is EXTERNAL while the source for Feruchemy is INTERNAL. This is a fundamental difference discussed in the series.

When you burn metals, you're drawing power from another place. When you tap a metalmind, you are drawing power that the person has created--a battery developed by themselves, so to speak.

So I think that's going to answer the source of your confusion.

/r/books AMA 2015 (March 12, 2015)

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tay95

A theme throughout a lot of the Cosmere novels is that form, of one sort or another (patterns, aons, etc.) has a crucial role to play in unlocking or using Investiture.

As a chemist, I'm curious about the role of form in Allomancy and Feruchemy. Does the underlying molecular or crystalline structure of the metal or alloy play a roll? Different processes, doping ratios, and metal mixtures result in different molecular packing, lattices, and ultimately structure. It seems like that kind of very defined, orderly matrix would be right in line with other forms of unlocking Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes! I've actually mentioned to people before that the chemistry of the various metals acts, for Allomancy, in the same way that the Aons work for AonDor. It's more a key than it is a source of power itself.

Worldbuilders AMA (Dec. 4, 2015)

 

 

Edited April 19 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Quantus he/him]

48 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

1. You get Gold and Copper, but with a different color. The Spiritual Change for color does not change the molecular structure of the material.

  Reveal hidden contents

Shadow Guardian

If an Awakener were to go to Roshar and were to bleed the color from a gem would that gem still be able to store Stormlight?

Brandon Sanderson

Bleed the color from a gem… Um ye-ye-ye-yeah. This would interfere with its function on Roshar. It would probably still be able to hold Stormlight…

Shadow Guardian

Might not be able to be used for Soulcasting?

Brandon Sanderson

Yea-- It's going to… You know what no it would just change it. It would just bleed the color from it and turn it into a dusty quartz or something like that. That's probably what it would end up with, a dusty quartz. Because the molecular structure doesn't matter as much as the color for Roshar. So yeah you would probably still be able to hold Stormlight because a diamond can but I don't know, quartz might cut it. You'd probably end up with something that's not going to work so well.

Questioner 2

What about a fabrial that needs a specific--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah a specific-- A ruby wouldn't work any more, and it would let go whatever is captured inside.

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

 

That WOB says that that color is the relevant thing over molecular Structure for Gems in Rosharan magic specifically, and is another confirmation that draining the Color Does change the molecular structure (in that case Diamond/Ruby/etc to Quartz). He's said there and elsewhere that the issue is that several of the different Essences are all but chemically identical but that molecular structure isnt what matters To Essences. 

As far as just having Pure Gold that is grey, Nope, that's the whole point here:  the WOB I posted is specifically saying the Spiritual Change from color does in fact alter the molecular structure and can be used in creative ways like charging batteries if the specific chemistry is favorable. Draining color from Gold will (apparently) force the material to transform into something else and leave you with a material other than Gold (or else Gold with a layer of something else, per Question #2), the question is more whether it becomes an alloy akin to White Gold or Electrum, some greyscale Oxide or salt Im not aware of, or will it become a greyscale element like Platinum meaning it's capable of driving an atomic-level change for alchemical-style transmutation.  EDIT: I guess Electrum or Platinum would require at least some of the Gold to transmute to another element.  

 

Edited April 19 by Quantus

[UltimateArchivist He/Him]

On 4/19/2024 at 11:41 AM, Quantus said:

As far as just having Pure Gold that is grey, Nope, that's the whole point here:  the WOB I posted is specifically saying the Spiritual Change from color does in fact alter the molecular structure and can be used in creative ways like charging batteries if the specific chemistry is favorable. Draining color from Gold will (apparently) force the material to transform into something else and leave you with a material other than Gold

I provide a second opinion. As a current chemistry student, an Oxidation-Reduction reaction is indeed a chemical change, redirecting the formal charge of the constituent particles, affecting which bonds they can form in the future. Color is a property of chemistry; depending on the structure of the measured particles, different forms of light can be absorbed, reflected, and emitted. A chemical change would certainly effect the color of a material.

Sorry, @Treamayne. It is my duty to support fact.

With simultaneous approval and apologies, the Ultimate Archivist.

[Treamayne]

14 minutes ago, UltimateArchivist said:

I provide a second opinion. As a current chemistry student, an Oxidation-Reduction reaction is indeed a chemical change, redirecting the formal charge of the constituent particles, affecting which bonds they can form in the future. Color is a property of chemistry; depending on the structure of the measured particles, different forms of light can be absorbed, reflected, and emitted. A chemical change would certainly effect the color of a material.

Sorry, @Treamayne. It is my duty to support fact.

With simultaneous approval and apologies, the Ultimate Archivist.

I wasn't disagreeing (especially with those whose understanding is greater), I was mearly pointing out that there is a third axis in the Cosmere (not just Matter<-> Energy; but Matter, Energy and Investiture) and the WoBs conflict (one saying "no molecular change" and the other saying "potentially break beta carotin due to a change to the spiritual nature" (paraphrased). This, to me, implies that Braondon could "decide" in either direction when he cannonizes more of how Physical Realm changes based on changes to the Spiritweb. 

(Correct me if I err) In the real world, color is determined chemically, but in the Cosmere it might not be "only chemistry" that makes that determination; we simply do not have enough data yet to reconcile the conflicting WoBs. My answer above was based solely on the WoBs I posted at the time. 

Edited April 23 by Treamayne
SPAG

[UltimateArchivist He/Him]

1 hour ago, Treamayne said:

but in the Cosmere it might not be "only chemistry"

Oh, yes. I continue to forget that the Cosmere and the real world differ in vital ways. I keep trying to apply real world principles to a similar, though fundamentally different, sphere. You will have to forgive me; I will cull down those errors.