can Sja anat corrupted other unmade?

[Franklin]

Can Sja anat corrupt other unmade? and what would happen if she did? can she also un-corrupt spren? could she even corrupt Oduim or Honor or other like them?

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

On 4/12/2024 at 5:21 AM, Franklin said:

Can Sja anat corrupt other unmade? and what would happen if she did? can she also un-corrupt spren? could she even corrupt Oduim or Honor or other like them?

Investiture resists Investiture, since the Unmade are relatively 'equal' I'd say no she couldn't. She can only 'enlighten' Radiant Spren with their permission.

For 'un-corrupting' I doubt it, it seems like a permanent transformation. After all, turning someone into a Steel Inquisitor or a Koloss is effectively permanent, and Enlightening could have some correlations to that, sort of.

As for corrupting an entire Shard? No, absolutely not. She is still just a Splinter, Odium could probably kill her with barely any effort, he just doesn't because she's too useful.

[alder24]

35 minutes ago, Franklin said:

Can Sja anat corrupt other unmade? and what would happen if she did?

I don't think so. Sja-anat Corrupting Oathgate spren was already edging on her limits - she was never able to Corrupt such a powerful spren before. Unmades are vastly more powerful than Oathgate spren. They would be comparably invested to her and that should make them too hard to corrupt.

35 minutes ago, Franklin said:

can she also un-corrupt spren?

It's unknown if she can reverse the enlightenment of a spren. It seems like this is permanent - she invests/corrupts them with Odium's investiture.

35 minutes ago, Franklin said:

could she even corrupt Oduim or Honor or other like them?

That's out of the question. She is just a tiny Splinter of Odium compared to the full power of a Shard. Shardic power is basically infinite. Sja-Anat knows Odium can destroy her, if he even catches her betraying him. 

[Quantus he/him]

18 hours ago, alder24 said:

I don't think so. Sja-anat Corrupting Oathgate spren was already edging on her limits - she was never able to Corrupt such a powerful spren before. Unmades are vastly more powerful than Oathgate spren. They would be comparably invested to her and that should make them too hard to corrupt.

It's unknown if she can reverse the enlightenment of a spren. It seems like this is permanent - she invests/corrupts them with Odium's investiture.

That's out of the question. She is just a tiny Splinter of Odium compared to the full power of a Shard. Shardic power is basically infinite. Sja-Anat knows Odium can destroy her, if he even catches her betraying him. 

I kinda think what she does and what UnMaking seems to be (at least with the Sibling in RoW) are essentially the same thing.  

[CtrlAltDepressed]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

I kinda think what she does and what UnMaking seems to be (at least with the Sibling in RoW) are essentially the same thing.  

Agreed - she is unmaking lesser spren. 

 

The unmaking process seems to be an additive process, rather than subtraction / rearranging. When we see Raboniel unmaking the Sibling she is only adding Odiums Investiture to the spren, which would ultimately warp the very essence (personality, disposition, memories) of the creature. As a rephrasing of what others have said, Sja-Anat is not able to produce / add enough of Odiums Investiture to corrupt something bigger than an Oathgate spren. Its possible that what Raboniel did had subtle effects on the Siblings personality but is not nearly enough to call her unmade. 

[alder24]

3 hours ago, Quantus said:

I kinda think what she does and what UnMaking seems to be (at least with the Sibling in RoW) are essentially the same thing.  

30 minutes ago, CtrlAltDepressed said:

Agreed - she is unmaking lesser spren. 

The unmaking process seems to be an additive process, rather than subtraction / rearranging. When we see Raboniel unmaking the Sibling she is only adding Odiums Investiture to the spren, which would ultimately warp the very essence (personality, disposition, memories) of the creatur

I think they are the same process but on different levels. Both invest and corrupt with Odium's investiture, but Unmaking seems bigger than Enlightening. Moreover Unmaking isn't just about investing, it's about ripping the mind to pieces, Transforming the soul - Sja-Anat fears she will be Unmade by Odium if he ever catches her red handed. RoW I-2:

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If Odium caught her in a verifiable lie, he would unmake her again. Steal her memory. Rip her to pieces. But in so doing, he would lose a useful tool.

And because Unmaking Sja-Anat would cost Odium a useful tool, it seems like Unmaking is losing investiture in the process, it's a subtractive process. On the other hand Glys doesn’t remember the moment of Enlightening well, but he’s never said if he forgot everything before it. I feel like an eternal True Spren would never agree to be essentially killed if Enlightening would be like Unmaking. To me at least it seems like Enlightening isn’t that brutal as Unmaking and it just changes the spren, without killing them, stealing their memories or destroying their mind  - it’s additive, their gaining a piece of Odium’s investiture, while the rest of their soul remain still of Honor and Cultivation - Unmades are of Odium, at least mostly. However we have too little information to determine how similar those processes are. But I agree, they are essentially the same, based on the same mechanism of corruption.

[Quantus he/him]

19 minutes ago, alder24 said:

I think they are the same process but on different levels. Both invest and corrupt with Odium's investiture, but Unmaking seems bigger than Enlightening. Moreover Unmaking isn't just about investing, it's about ripping the mind to pieces, Transforming the soul - Sja-Anat fears she will be Unmade by Odium if he ever catches her red handed. RoW I-2:

And because Unmaking Sja-Anat would cost Odium a useful tool, it seems like Unmaking is losing investiture in the process, it's a subtractive process. On the other hand Glys doesn’t remember the moment of Enlightening well, but he’s never said if he forgot everything before it. I feel like an eternal True Spren would never agree to be essentially killed if Enlightening would be like Unmaking. To me at least it seems like Enlightening isn’t that brutal as Unmaking and it just changes the spren, without killing them, stealing their memories or destroying their mind  - it’s additive, their gaining a piece of Odium’s investiture, while the rest of their soul remain still of Honor and Cultivation - Unmades are of Odium, at least mostly. However we have too little information to determine how similar those processes are. But I agree, they are essentially the same, based on the same mechanism of corruption.

Agreed on the point of scale for Odium's Unmaking vs Sja-anats Enlightening.  But this WOB makes me suspect that she may just be a little gentler of mindset (and/or have better PR), and has personally chosen to get some level of consent first.  Consent or lack of it can make an identical process wildly more or less brutal and damaging.  The fact that it would be so Dire for an active Bond makes me think it is (or at least can be) just as destructive.  

I dont think Id call Unmaking a Subtractive Process so much as a wildly Transformative one, and that it's simply a transformation she fears to undergo (at all or maybe just at Odium Rayse's hands).  When she says he'd loose a useful too I think she just means the intelligence and cunning etc. that she personally brings to the table, not that actual Investiture would be lost/destroyed in the process; the resulting remade UnMade could have all the same investiture but be another mindless mass of power like several of them are. 

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Oversleep

Will there be Enlightened spren of other Radiant Orders than Truthwatchers, and why does Sja-anat like Truthwatchers so much?

Brandon Sanderson

The reason Sja-anat likes Truthwatcher spren the most is because they are the most willing. And she considers what she's doing offering Enlightenment, not corrupting. And she considers their willingness to be a part of this. Outside observers might consider her methods less... involving less volition on the parts of some of the spren that she touches. They might argue with her on that point. In this case, as it comes with the two Truthwatcher spren that you see in the books, they both went to what they are willingly. Fully willingly to become what they are. They are, you might say, participants in her plans. So that's why she wants them.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 1 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

 

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Questioner

Can a bonded spren be Enlightened by Sja-anat?

Brandon Sanderson

This is possible, it would have dire, dire ramifications for the bond. [It's] much better to happen before, but it could happen

YouTube Live Fan Mail Opening 1 (Oct. 30, 2021)