Elhokar is not a Proto-Radiant

[Crystin Radiant]

Hmm... I think Elhokar was seeing cryptics, and the epigraph for chapter forty nine fore some reason makes me think that there are different ways to see them before you bond to one, since not all of them drew. I had thought that perhaps Syl had scared off the cryptics watching Elhokar, though now that I think about it, I could be wrong. Shallan does, however note that Patern is quiet when Kaladin is around at one point, though I don't remember where in the book that was. I'm not sure if that counts for anything, though.

I think it would be interesting to see a man as a lightweaver, especially since they seem to all be artists of some sort, and that sort of thing tends to be frowned upon in men in Alethi culture.

As far as Lightweavers and Windrunners, I feel like Lightweavers have two distinct powers- soulcasting and lightweaving, while the abilities of the Windruners seem more like one ability.

Edit:

Also, as far as the two Lightweavers that Kaladin knew... I note that it is in past tense, so does this mean that Kaladin knows three (two who are dead and Shallan) or Shallan and another Lightweaver who is now dead?

I may be reading too far into this, but you never know...

Edited October 22, 2014 by Crystin Radiant

[Aleksiel]

Hmm... I think Elhokar was seeing cryptics, and the epigraph for chapter forty nine fore some reason makes me think that there are different ways to see them before you bond to one, since not all of them drew. I had thought that perhaps Syl had scared off the cryptics watching Elhokar, though now that I think about it, I could be wrong. Shallan does, however note that Patern is quiet when Kaladin is around at one point, though I don't remember where in the book that was. I'm not sure if that counts for anything, though.

I think it would be interesting to see a man as a lightweaver, especially since they seem to all be artists of some sort, and that sort of thing tends to be frowned upon in men in Alethi culture.

As far as Lightweavers and Windrunners, I feel like Lightweavers have two distinct powers- soulcasting and lightweaving, while the abilities of the Windruners seem more like one ability.

Edit:

Also, as far as the two Lightweavers that Kaladin knew... I note that it is in past tense, so does this mean that Kaladin knows three (two who are dead and Shallan) or Shallan and another Lightweaver who is now dead?

I may be reading too far into this, but you never know...

 

Actually, 'has known' is present perfect, not past tense and is used for something from the past that effects the present. It's doesn't mean those people are dead. I even think if it referred to two dead Lightweavers, it would been 'knew' or 'had known'.

 

I checked the epigraph from chapter 49 WoR you refer to:

 

 

These Lightweavers, by no coincidence, included many who pursued the arts; namely: writers, artists, musicians, painters, sculptors. Considering the order’s general temperament, the tales of their strange and varied mnemonic abilities may have been embellished.

 

and it doesn't make me think Lightweavers see their spren in different ways. Can you explain your idea some more?

[Twenty@20]

The WoR Ars Arcanum describes Lightweaving as- A (second) form of Surgebinding involves the manipulation of light and sound in illusory tactics common throughout the cosmere.

I think the key word here is 'illusory'. So even if Truthwatchers can manipulate light and sound but don't make illusions, it should not be referred as Lightweaving. And if we see Renarin making illusions, we can say he is Lightweaving. What I understand is that terms like Lightweaving and Windrunning describe the act of using the Surges, that is the process of surgebinding. When a Windrunner surgebinds using the Basic lashing( noun form), he is said to be windrunning. Windrunning also aptly describes fly through the wind, which is probably why the term was coined. (Windrunning is also mentioned in the WoR Arcanum. So we are correct in using the verb form) This I think is true for all the Radiants.(I am trying to think what Skybreaking implies.) Once we see Skybreakers in action it will be confirmed if their flying through the sky is called Wind running or Skybreaking. Perhaps Skybreaking will describe the simultaneous use of Lashings and the Division surge(breaking). We also have a WoB both orders use the Lashings in the same way so an observer won't know if it is a Windrunner or Skybreaker who is flying so a Skybreaker may as well be referred to as windrunning.

As regards to the point Crystin Radiant is making, I think what he is trying to say is that for different artistic abilities, the Cryptics can manifest differently. Shallan, for example, is expert in drawing and she literally drew Pattern into the Physical world. For a singer or a sculptor, the cryptic may manifest differently. Perhaps the singer will sing a specific pattern of notes, or a sculptor might carve out his Cryptic, a mathematician might develop a new formula (all cryptics have a pattern, it can be a pattern of anything, a pattern of notes, a rational number, etc). I think the possibilities are mind boggling.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Bloodfalcon]

 Perhaps Skybreaking will describe the simultaneous use of Lashings and the Division surge(breaking). We also have a WoB both orders use the Lashings in the same way so an observer won't know if it is a Windrunner or Skybreaker who is flying so a Skybreaker may as well be referred to as windrunning.

My hope is that casual observers aren't the ones who named the 10 Orders, but it does sound like that would have to be the case for this to occur. If two Orders are Windrunning and one is named Windrunners, that seems pretty inadequate. Same goes for Lightweaving. However, if two people are using the same power but using different resources because magic is location based, that provides an actual explanation for multiple "Lightweavers."

[Twenty@20]

And when they were spoken of by the common folk, the Releasers claimed to be misjudged because of the dreadful nature of their power; and when they dealt with others, always were they firm in their claim that other epithets, notably “Dustbringers,” often heard in the common speech, were unacceptable substitutions, in particular for their similarity to the word “Voidbringers.” They did also exercise anger in great prejudice regarding it, though to many who speak, there was little difference between these two assemblies.

From the above quote it seems like the term Dustbringer arose from common speech. In fact fantastic names like Windrunner, Skybreaker or Lightweaver probably are colloquial in origin. When scholar decide to intervene even amazing surges get boring names like Cohesion, Division, Transportation.

[Rybal]

I don't believe that Renarin would count as the second Lightweaver. Because Lightweaver refers to a specific order, that would suggest that the act of lightweaving would refer to the act of using the surges of Transformation and Illumination in conjunction with one another, which Shallan does when she creates her illusions that change the very nature of those they come in contact with.

 

I also don't think that Hoid counts, if only because the statement strongly implies that it is referring to surgebinders.

 

 

The question becomes "Who was the second Lightweaver?" I know people are suggesting Tien and, while he may have been on the path towards becoming a Lightweaver, I don't believe he ever progressed to a point where he would be considered a Lightweaver.

 

Of those that we've had the opportunity to know, Elhokar seems to be the most likely, especially since he seems to be seeing cryptics. The fact that he seems most likely is one of the reasons I am leaning so strongly towards it not being him. I do think he's a proto-Radiant, but I don't think he'll be a Lightweaver.

 

Right now, my gut says that the second Lightweaver was Tarah (I hope I got her name right). She's only mentioned a couple of times in the books, but we do know that Kaladin met her. It could also be that those attributes of a Lightweaver are the same types of things that are generating the attraction that he feels towards Shallan.

 

Also, unless other cryptics can hide themselves at will, that strongly suggests that Kaladin met the other Lightweaver prior to his journey to the Shattered Plains, which is when Syl's sentience began to manifest. Otherwise, she would have noted the presence of a cryptic, just as she did during the battle in the arena.

[Aleksiel]

The author of the AA came up with the word windrunning based on what s/he saw from Szeth. That doesn't make the word accurate as the AA is an in-world study of a worldhopper. We can trust the names of the Orders as they were probably kept accurate enough by the in-world WoR that was written 200 or so years after the day of the Recreanse, but terms such as windrunning and lightweaving might be revised in future books.

 

It's inaccurate to name any power after an Order if two can do it and flying seems based solely on gravity (basic lashing), so I don't think calling it windrunning is the best word for it. Plus it's more like horizontal falling, but that doesn't have the same ring to it, does it? Now, if we count how Kal attracts windspren and if Sybreakers don't, then I'm ok with it. Though I'll want some sort of an explanation why windspren aren't attracted to pretty much the same thing.

[Aleksiel]

....

 

They were in the same carriage, meeting, room and so on, but Syl didn't notice Pattern. It can't be Tien, because there's WoB we haven't met another Lightweaver, so it's most likely someone from Kal's past and I agree Tarah seems plausible. 

[Rybal]

They were in the same carriage, meeting, room and so on, but Syl didn't notice Pattern. It can't be Tien, because there's WoB we haven't met another Lightweaver, so it's most likely someone from Kal's past and I agree Tarah seems plausible. 

 

True, but Syl was also deteriorating at that point, IIRC (I could be mistaken). Good to know there's official WoB on us not meeting another Lightweaver. That gives further credence to the second not being Hoid.

[Moogle]

The author of the AA came up with the word windrunning based on what s/he saw from Szeth. That doesn't make the word accurate as the AA is an in-world study of a worldhopper.

 

Brandon has used the term 'Windrunning' as a name for Kaladin's powerset several times before. Examples:

Windrunner17 ()

Why does Scadrial, which has two Shards, only have three manifestations of investiture, (Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy) but Sel, also with two Shards, has five manifestations of investiture (AonDor, Dakhor, ChayShan, Forgery, and Bloodsealing)?

Brandon Sanderson

Sel's magics are much more regionalized than Scadrial's. Each area has its own manifestation, but they're all actually the same magic. So really there is one magic on Sel—much as Windrunning and Lightweaving on Roshar are kind of different magics, but also kind of the same.

 

Question

And so like the Windrunners, they’re just one Order of the Knights Radiant, aren’t they?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they are, in fact they are- every order is a grouping of one of these [points to the large symbols on the Radiant tables] and two of these [points at the smaller symbols], these are the Surges. So these are the ten, sort of forces. And so Windrunning is pressure and gravitation, which are those two. But the Skybreakers are right there [points to gold symbol in the upper middle], with a different combination and each of these different groupings would make one order of the Knights Radiant. And that is the symbol of the Windrunners, right there on the cover. [Points at the swordgylph under the dust jacket]. So, fun little easter-egg type things there.

[Aleksiel]

 

Brandon has used the term 'Windrunning' as a name for Kaladin's powerset several times before. Examples:

 

Hmm, so if Windrunning is gravity and pressure, then it's not basic lashing. Does this mean Skybreakers can not fly/fall like Kaladin?

Edited October 22, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Twenty@20]

Reports of the Assassin in White’s odd abilities have led me to some sources of information that, I believe, are generally unknown.

The author of the AA has some sources for backup. Also the author is known to be a scholar so her writing should not be dismissed. And obviously Mr. Sanderson approves of the AA author or s/he would not be writing it. Agreed the terminologies may be updated in the next AA but until then there is no harm in using them.

There is no evidence that the names of the Orders and surgebinding terminologies (eg. Soul casting, lightweaving, windrunning) were established by any authorised body. The names seem to have developed by common usage (the Heralds may have given 1 or 2)and in the present era the names are more mythological. Dustbringers in fact had several names. In such a case there can be no correct or incorrect names, only more popular and less popular names

Edited October 22, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Moogle]

Hmm, so if Windrunning is gravity and pressure, then it's not basic lashing. Does this mean Skybreakers can not fly/fall like Kaladin?

 

WoB is that they can, and it will look basically exactly the same as when a Windrunner does it. "Windrunning" is like "Steelpushing" in Mistborn, so as far as I can see: it refers to your powerset. Lashings describe actual sub-powers in your powerset, and both Skybreakers and Windrunners would have Basic and Reverse Lashings. Skybreakers probably didn't call them Lashings, though.

 

I suspect Brandon was being ambiguous when he called what Shallan did "Lightweaving". The Lightweavers may have termed using Illumination in that way as Lightweaving, much like Windrunners termed redirecting gravity as a Basic Lashing.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Twenty@20]

To clarify, if a Windrunner uses the Full lashing or Reverse lashing, will you call that Windrunning?

[Moogle]

To clarify, if a Windrunner uses the Full lashing or Reverse lashing, will you call that Windrunning?

 

I don't know for sure, but it seems that Brandon would be able to describe things that way. I'd say it's better to just call it using Gravity and Adhesion, since the powers don't change by order so far as we know.

[Twenty@20]

What I believe is that some of the more extraordinary powers of KR caught the imagination of the public and gained fanciful names. Like the Transformation surgebinding came to be known as soulcasting, illusory powers via Illumination surgebinding became popular as Lightweaving and flying with the help of Basic Lashing came to be known as Windrunning.

With time Lightweaving became associated with Shalash's knights(perhaps they became known as experts of Lightweaving) and they got the epithet of Lightweavers. Similarly for Windrunners.

Edited October 22, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Bloodfalcon]

Yeah, I think those two WoB's from Moogle verified it for me. Windrunning / Lightweaving seem to be a combination of the two Surges. However I will respect the Code of Forced Ignorance (which is what I just decided means "we don't have that book yet so we can't know") and admit that there are no in-text rules in place so far as we know for determining specifics. 

The Ars Arcanum author, whether he is the one who named the Orders or just collected the names which were pre-established, is not necessarily a source to dwell on. I know Nahz (sp?) is technically a character by WoB, but currently the Cosmere wide plot is just a literary tool Brandon is using to develop the universe and provide us information in a fun and interactive way. It's probably not wise to put too much consideration into whether or not Nahz knows this or that much less what his sources were. 

[bobsaveg]

In WOK Shallan sees the symbol heads also when she is drawing the King Taravangian, so maybe they are just interested in Kings/ rulers in general as well as visible to radiants and the reason they left is that they did not want to be discovered by Kaladin.

[Oudeis]

I've always wondered at something. Someone bothered to name the Surge of Transformation as Soulcasting, and yet there isn't an order called Soulcasters. Of the two Orders who have that Surge, Shallan's is named Lightweaving after the Illusion Surge, and Jasnah's is named Elsecallers after the Transportation Surge (if we can go by Hoid's complaint at the end, "Did you have to Elsecall all the way out here?")

 

Just something I found odd.

[Rybal]

I've always wondered at something. Someone bothered to name the Surge of Transformation as Soulcasting, and yet there isn't an order called Soulcasters. Of the two Orders who have that Surge, Shallan's is named Lightweaving after the Illusion Surge, and Jasnah's is named Elsecallers after the Transportation Surge (if we can go by Hoid's complaint at the end, "Did you have to Elsecall all the way out here?")

 

Just something I found odd.

 

Lightweaving isn't JUST the illusion, though; Lightweaving is the combination of illusion and transformation. The most visible examples of this would be Bluth becoming more heroic based on Shallan's ability as well as her own changes within herself. Lightweaving is the ability to effect change (transform) through those illusions.

[Oudeis]

Do you know that this is true? I know Pattern says that her ability is different, that her illusions can change the world, but is there text or WoB stating that this unique ability of hers is the only thing that is called Lightweaving?

[Aleksiel]

The author of the AA thinks Lightweaving has to do with the Spiritual realm, whereas Transformation comes from the Cognitive realm. The author suspects some Cognitive and Spiritual attributes are involved, but doesn't consider Lightweaving a mixture of Transformation and Illusion. Now, I know the AA could have mistakes, but the author is familiar with Yolish Lightweaving, so it's credible on this regard as far as I'm concerned. Also:

 

 

“You spoke of one Surge, earlier,” Pattern said. “Lightweaving, the power of light. But you have something else. The power of transformation.”

“Soulcasting?” Shallan said. “I didn’t Soulcast anyone.”

“Mmmm. And yet, you transformed them. And yet. Mmmm.”

 

So the transformation part might be an addition to the Lightweaving, not an integrated part of it, if that makes sense.

[Oudeis]

Truthwatchers use it to see the future somehow,

 

...

 

Truthwaters use it probably in conjunction with progression to see the future.

 

May I ask your source on this? Do we know that Renarin's countdown is as simply explained as this? Remember, from The Way of Kings, Chapter 18, apparently the Heralds themselves denounced divination of the future. There have been other indications, from something Syl says once to a WoB about future-sight being "not of honor".

 

I realize the simplest explanation is that it's just a way Renarin uses the Surges, but that doesn't actually make any sense. The way Progression's been used, it doesn't have to do with seeing the future, it's just speeding up an ongoing process. And when we see him carve on the walls, there's no especial light around that I recall. He's also not taking in Stormlight. I'll read the scene again, but I don't think the Highstorm has arrived yet, and besides, we don't have any other examples of people taking Stormlight directly from a storm unless they're out in it, and Eshonai says that the listener bonding trick only works if you're outside.

 

I'm simply suggesting that there's probably more going on here than we realize, and there are certainly enough holes in the theory that we cannot simply say, "this is definitely what is going on here", to the point that we can debunk other theories based on it.

[Bloodfalcon]

The author of the AA thinks Lightweaving has to do with the Spiritual realm, whereas Transformation comes from the Cognitive realm. The author suspects some Cognitive and Spiritual attributes are involved, but doesn't consider Lightweaving a mixture of Transformation and Illusion. Now, I know the AA could have mistakes, but the author is familiar with Yolish Lightweaving, so it's credible on this regard as far as I'm concerned. Also:

 

 

So the transformation part might be an addition to the Lightweaving, not an integrated part of it, if that makes sense.

I really hope that's not the case. I hope the namesake powers are more than just powers shared between a couple of Orders. I always figured true Lightweaving would be a combination of the two. Like Shallan produces an image/illusion and is able to turn it into tangible matter as long as she feeds it resources. That would be how she could use both powers in a unique way. Jasnah could use Transformation and Transportation to move things between the realms in unique ways, and that is Elsecalling. It just doesn't seem right to say Lightweaving can be done by Lightweavers and another group. I'd chalk it up to very poor naming. 

[Aleksiel]

I think the widely accepted explanation is that Ren's ability to see the future is passive (non-stormlight consuming like Shallan's Memory) and it comes from Cultivation, who's better at seeing the future and is involved with the KR. In fact, there's a theory that Truthwatchers are entirely of Cultivation. 

 

What you're referring to is 'seeing the future is of the Voidbringers' that could mean the visions of the future are of things that involve Voidbringers. If you think about it, the new post-Sunmaker Vorinism is the one thing that renounces seeing the future because the ardents of the Hierochracy had visions that the Sunmaker supposedly proved to be lies, then took the power and made ardent slaves while also changing Vorisims. We know nothing of the original Vorinism or what the Heralds said over 4500 years ago.

 

edit: @Bloodfalcon Yeah, I know what you mean. But who named the Orders anyway? If it was the common folk, then I won' be surprised if they were some misconceptions, after all Dustbringers in not whet the Releasers called themselves. May be Lightweaving involves that deep self-awareness Pattern was talking about, which technically isn't any surge. 

Edited October 23, 2014 by Aleksiel