Elhokar is not a Proto-Radiant

[Oudeis he/him]

I concede that a post-Hierocracy notion of what the Heralds may or may not have said is a poor citation.

 

I will return when I've got the time to look up the "seeing the future" WoB, and when my current re-read of the book brings me to the point I recall when Syl says something about it.

[Moogle]

The author of the AA thinks Lightweaving has to do with the Spiritual realm, whereas Transformation comes from the Cognitive realm. The author suspects some Cognitive and Spiritual attributes are involved, but doesn't consider Lightweaving a mixture of Transformation and Illusion. Now, I know the AA could have mistakes, but the author is familiar with Yolish Lightweaving, so it's credible on this regard as far as I'm concerned. Also:

 

Soulcasting is probably not just Cognitive, as it affects what something is, not just what it perceives itself to be. Shai in TES describes the stamps as "touching the object's soul" when they sink into it, and Jasnah's hand similarly sinks into the wall when she Soulcasts one. It seems more likely that the Cognitive Realm is just a handy interface to the Spiritual.

 

As to Pattern's comment about transforming people like Bluth, I expect that's just because it's what Lightweavers are. They're the sort of people who change others, "Soulcasting" them. It doesn't mean they use both Surges to do it. I would say it's more metaphorical than literal. And note, Shallan doesn't use Illumination or Transformation to change Bluth, she does it through a drawing. (Sidenote: this would be a good place to expand on the theory of how every Radiant has 'metaphorical' versions of their Surges, like Kaladin has a Spiritual Gravity which makes people automatically trust him and come close to him, that sort of thing.)

Edited October 23, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

Soulcasting is probably not just Cognitive, as it affects what something is, not just what it perceives itself to be. Shai in TES describes the stamps as "touching the object's soul" when they sink into it, and Jasnah's hand similarly sinks into the wall when she Soulcasts one. It seems more likely that the Cognitive Realm is just a handy interface to the Spiritual.

 

As to Pattern's comment about transforming people like Bluth, I expect that's just because it's what Lightweavers are. They're the sort of people who change others, "Soulcasting" them. It doesn't mean they use both Surges to do it. I would say it's more metaphorical than literal. And note, Shallan doesn't use Illumination or Transformation to change Bluth, she does it through a drawing. (Sidenote: this would be a good place to expand on the theory of how every Radiant has 'metaphorical' versions of their Surges, like Kaladin has a Spiritual Gravity which makes people automatically trust him and come close to him, that sort of thing.)

 

It might not be just the Cognitive realm, I agree. Though I don't know what the Spiritual is, so I can't argue in favor or against. The concept of touching the soul or even just the soul is too vague to speculate. The comment is for the deserters who joined Shallan after her speech, not Bluth, but yes, my point was somewhat the same: the transforming's effect likely is not surge related.

[Twenty@20 he/him]

I really hope that's not the case. I hope the namesake powers are more than just powers shared between a couple of Orders. I always figured true Lightweaving would be a combination of the two. Like Shallan produces an image/illusion and is able to turn it into tangible matter as long as she feeds it resources. That would be how she could use both powers in a unique way. Jasnah could use Transformation and Transportation to move things between the realms in unique ways, and that is Elsecalling. It just doesn't seem right to say Lightweaving can be done by Lightweavers and another group. I'd chalk it up to very poor naming.

Your idea is interesting. If Lightweavers can not only create illusions but create actual objects out of them, then that is pretty awesome. However I believe that Lightweaving per se refers only to the creating illusion part.

One can argue that transformation ( small t) is inherent in creating illusions but it is not related to the Transformation surge. The epigraph of chapter 47 WoR talks about Lightweavers providing spiritual sustenance. It seems they were like cheerleaders, for want of a better term, always encouraging, counselling and providing emotional support to other Knights. I think the Cryptics specifically look for persons of such temperament, persons who can inspire others to improve and transform themselves.

Regarding Elsecallers I have a hunch that their spren look for individuals who have natural affinity for the cognitive realm. This is contrast to the idea that becoming an Elsecaller brings an affinity to Shadesmar. An earlier post pointed out that there was no obvious reason for Jasnah to go to Shadesmar when attacked. It could be that the Ivory brought Jasnah into Shadesmar to give her time to heal her wounds.

I had thought Transportation means instantaneous travel in the physical realm only. Going into Shadesmar is a function of the natural affinity Elsecallers have to it. Recall Willshapers also have Transportation yet they are not considered equal to Elsecallers in affinity to Shadesmar.

Also in the WOR prologue, recall that the Jasnah's shadow pointed towards the light before Ivory appeared. This can be taken as evidence that Jasnah already had an affinity to Shadesmar and so she became an Elsecaller.

One more point regarding why there no orders was named Soulcaster. I think this was because the soulcasting fabrial was in use by non- Radiants. So Radiants were not called Soulcasters.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Also in the WOR prologue, recall that the Jasnah's shadow pointed towards the light before Ivory appeared. This can be taken as evidence that Jasnah already had an affinity to Shadesmar and so she became an Elsecaller.

One more point regarding why there no orders was named Soulcaster. I think this was because the soulcasting fabrial was in use by non- Radiants. So Radiants were not called Soulcasters.

Shadows pointing the wrong direction doesn't really indicate anything in particular so far as we know. It seems like the same experience Kaladin was having prior to actually meeting Syl; she was hanging around him all the time messing with things. Kaladin's was a little more normal than reversed shadows, though he did have moments where objects got stuck to him and that sort of thing involving his adhesion. 

Also, I don't think that is the proper timeline for the naming of the Order, but again, we can't really know. Back in the day, I'm sure fabrials were created in imitation of different powers. If they called the fabrial a "Soulcaster," I'm pretty sure it's namesake would have been the power it mimics. 

[Twenty@20 he/him]

Syl was manifesting the Surge of Adhesion around Kaladin. However reversed shadows is not a manifestation of Transformation or Transportation. For comparison Ivory could have changed a cup into spoon near Jasnah. Transformation, Transportation and Illumination are brought about by Shadesmar manipulation. Reversed shadows is a characteristic of Shadesmar. I don't have a quote or WoB at hand, but recall reading somewhere that reversed shadows indicate Shadesmar affinity.

IIRC, both the Transformation fabrial and the guy using them was called Soulcasters. It is not implausible that both Radiants and normal people(using the fabrial) were able to soulcast. To differentiate between them, the names of the two Radiant groups may have got changed to highlight their second power set.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

IIRC, both the Transformation fabrial and the guy using them was called Soulcasters. It is not implausible that both Radiants and normal people(using the fabrial) were able to soulcast. To differentiate between them, the names of the two Radiant groups may have got changed to highlight their second power set.

 

I doubt they changed the order name because someone used a fabrial with the same power. Pretty sure the device is made in imitation.

[dants he/him]

According to WoB, Kaladin has met two Lightweavers. I wouldn't say that this immediately disproves your theory, but it heavily suggests that Elhokar is a Radiant.

One of those is Hoid, the other is Shallan.

[Aonar he/him]

But Hoid isn't a Radiant. It all depends on how you interpret the question. My interpretation is that Hoid is not a Lightweaver, but can Lightweave. Add to that that the context for the answer was, "tell us something about Kaladin we don't already know" I think it suggests that Elhokar is a Lightweaver, given that everyone by this point knows of Hoid's abilities.

[Moogle]

One of those is Hoid, the other is Shallan.

 

If Hoid's a Lightweaver, then so is Renarin, which means Kaladin's met three. The WoB says he's met two.

[dants he/him]

If Hoid's a Lightweaver, then so is Renarin, which means Kaladin's met three. The WoB says he's met two.

Where did you get that info? Where is the similarity?

[Aonar he/him]

Renarin is a Truthwatcher, and therefore has access to the Illumination surge, meaning that he can create illusions and Lightweave, as surges have been said to function in basically the same way for each order. 

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

If Hoid's a Lightweaver, then so is Renarin, which means Kaladin's met three. The WoB says he's met two.

 

Renarin is a Truthwatcher, and therefore has access to the Illumination surge, meaning that he can create illusions and Lightweave, as surges have been said to function in basically the same way for each order. 

 

Where did you get that info? Where is the similarity?

 

For whatever reason people keep suggesting that Lightweaver is a term derived solely from one surge, Illumination, and therefore is applicable to that surge alone. On the chart of KR, it seems to me that there is very clearly an Order labelled Lightweavers, which is a combination of surges, but that is being treated more like a place to double up on labeling the Illumination surge. I still think that theory is relying heavily on poor nomenclature, and being fueled by our desire to not have to change the term we've been using as a nickname for Illumination. There are pieces of the text that refer to Lightweaving and cite instances when it would appear only Illumination is being used, but I still don't think they are the same. That said, I've accepted that worse systems have been put in place for naming things in the past, and while I would be moderately disappointed, it is possible that the correct term for Illusion is Lightweaving. 

PS - Everyone keeps citing Renarin's illusions (lowercase), but have we seen him create an illusion that you would all label Lightweaving? I think that's an assumption on an assumption being used as evidence. He sees images of the future, and so far as I know that's all we get. If there's more than that, I've been subconsciously skipping Renarin paragraphs on my reread (which wouldn't be all that surprising actually).

[Oudeis he/him]

First, the text flat-out refers to illusion magic as Lightweaving; even Hoid's magic, which is almost surely not based on Surges. It's a bit confusing, but it was Mr. Sanderson who used the two phrases to mean two related but different things, not the fans. Please do not blame fans for being confused by it.

 

That said, by the definition "someone who can Lightweave" Kaladin has obviously met at least three people, so the WoB about meeting two HAS to mean, "he's met two people in the order of Lightweavers." Since Elhokar has seen Cryptics, I have difficulty believing he's not a Lightweaver. Will Shallan end up mentoring Elhokar in his abilities? Will that work out better than any of the training we've seen, yet? (Teft training Kaladin, Jasnah training Shallan). Given Elhokar's capacity for general competency, let alone focus, dedication, and self-awareness, it seems to me that he'll make not only a poor Lightweaver, but a poor student.

 

Second, I think Renarin's prophecy has absolute nothing to do with Surgebinding. Well, maybe not nothing, but this isn't "what a normal Truthwatcher does." First, Ym didn't seem to see the future. Second, Tanavast himself mentioned that it was forbidden to see the future. The idea that Honor might have nothing to do with the Truthwatcher Order seems like a stretch to me, and it's also a weird way for him to phrase it if it's just not his bag, but his girlfriend is totally down with seeing the future.

In short, is it possible? Sure. Is there a reason we should continue assuming that oracular trances that happen each Highstorm are simply the way that Illumination and Progression meld? I think that's the less likely possibility, rather than the presumptive truth. It's a Comic-Book level stretch to think that Illumination or Progression has anything to do with that; it's like saying that because of Progression, Renarin will develop mastery over the direction "forward".

[Aleksiel]

First, the text flat-out refers to illusion magic as Lightweaving; even Hoid's magic, which is almost surely not based on Surges. It's a bit confusing, but it was Mr. Sanderson who used the two phrases to mean two related but different things, not the fans. Please do not blame fans for being confused by it.

 

That said, by the definition "someone who can Lightweave" Kaladin has obviously met at least three people, so the WoB about meeting two HAS to mean, "he's met two people in the order of Lightweavers." Since Elhokar has seen Cryptics, I have difficulty believing he's not a Lightweaver. Will Shallan end up mentoring Elhokar in his abilities? Will that work out better than any of the training we've seen, yet? (Teft training Kaladin, Jasnah training Shallan). Given Elhokar's capacity for general competency, let alone focus, dedication, and self-awareness, it seems to me that he'll make not only a poor Lightweaver, but a poor student.

 

I agree the WoB about two LW makes sense if he's talking about the Order. However, there's another post-WoR WoB about us not having seen another LW, only the power of LW, which points towards Kal having met a LW Radiant pre-WoK.

 

 

Second, I think Renarin's prophecy has absolute nothing to do with Surgebinding. Well, maybe not nothing, but this isn't "what a normal Truthwatcher does." First, Ym didn't seem to see the future. Second, Tanavast himself mentioned that it was forbidden to see the future. The idea that Honor might have nothing to do with the Truthwatcher Order seems like a stretch to me, and it's also a weird way for him to phrase it if it's just not his bag, but his girlfriend is totally down with seeing the future.

In short, is it possible? Sure. Is there a reason we should continue assuming that oracular trances that happen each Highstorm are simply the way that Illumination and Progression meld? I think that's the less likely possibility, rather than the presumptive truth. It's a Comic-Book level stretch to think that Illumination or Progression has anything to do with that; it's like saying that because of Progression, Renarin will develop mastery over the direction "forward".

 

May be Ym wasn't advanced enough to get the foresight or (unlikely, but still) he wasn't a Truthwatcher. The visions seem related to Ren's surges: Progression brings the gist of how things could progress in the future and Illumination give it sound and picture. Shallan's passive - Memory - is most likely from Illumination; passive abilities in general make sense only if they are results of surges, not random unrelated cool things.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

First, the text flat-out refers to illusion magic as Lightweaving; even Hoid's magic, which is almost surely not based on Surges. It's a bit confusing, but it was Mr. Sanderson who used the two phrases to mean two related but different things, not the fans. Please do not blame fans for being confused by it.

 

That said, by the definition "someone who can Lightweave" Kaladin has obviously met at least three people, so the WoB about meeting two HAS to mean, "he's met two people in the order of Lightweavers." Since Elhokar has seen Cryptics, I have difficulty believing he's not a Lightweaver. Will Shallan end up mentoring Elhokar in his abilities? Will that work out better than any of the training we've seen, yet? (Teft training Kaladin, Jasnah training Shallan). Given Elhokar's capacity for general competency, let alone focus, dedication, and self-awareness, it seems to me that he'll make not only a poor Lightweaver, but a poor student.

I feel more than justified in blaming the fans and Brandon. Lightweaving can be a function of Illumination without it meaning that everyone with access to the Illumination surge can Lightweave. It's my belief that that is where fans have made poor assumptions. I'm more than willing to blame Brandon for terribly confusing everybody if the Order is named Lightweavers and you can basically rename one surge "Lightweaving". 

What 3 people has Kaladin met? Again, we're making the assumption that Renarin can "Lightweave" without having seen him do it, just because he has access to a surge that we are again assuming is solely responsible for Lightweaving. So I still don't count him. Either way, it doesn't clear up the WoB in any way at all. 

If the surge is basically "Lightweaving" and Brandon was referring to the Surge, then Kaladin had met Renarin and Shallan. 

If the Lightweavers are two people considered "Lightweavers" though not based on the Order or the Surge, then Kaladin had met Hoid and Shallan. 

If Lightweavers referrs to the Order specifically, then Kaladin had met Shallan and one other character (perhaps Elhokar). 

It's that kind of confusion that leads me to believe Brandon would not be using the term to mean both an Order and an ability that can be used by other Orders. But I'll state for the fourth time: I've seen worse systems for naming in the past, so I haven't ruled it out yet. It's a reason not to go thinking we know which of those options is true though.

[Aleksiel]

Since Peter said the WoB might not be about Hoid, I'd say team Brandon doesn't mind the confusion. We don't really know who named the Order LW. Dustbringers were named by common people and those Radiants hated the name and preferred Releasers. 

 

Here's somewhat relevant Brandon quote

 

 

Some of the magic systems have been discovered on different planets, and some of them do work. A lot of them don't, but some of them do. It depends on your spiritual DNA, what people are able to do, and things like that. But, if you find a way to do illusion magic in one of my worlds it's going to work pretty much like Lightweaving, regardless of which planet you're on. If that makes sense.

 

So Lightweaving is the ability to make illusions in the Cosmere. therefor, since surges work pretty much the same for the Orders who use them (there's a WoB for this, will add source later), and Illumination allows illusions, then Ren must be able to use the surge and create Illusions, which will be also called Lightweaving. KR's LW may include some soul-aspect or whatever to their power of Lightweaving, which make it slightly different from what Hoid and others do, yet the name remains.

[Oudeis he/him]

I agree the WoB about two LW makes sense if he's talking about the Order. However, there's another post-WoR WoB about us not having seen another LW, only the power of LW, which points towards Kal having met a LW Radiant pre-WoK.

I read this quote and it just adds to the confusion. Clearly, the word can mean one of the two things, and if he doesn't specify in any case, we don't know which. It's all very confusing.

 

 

May be Ym wasn't advanced enough to get the foresight or (unlikely, but still) he wasn't a Truthwatcher. The visions seem related to Ren's surges: Progression brings the gist of how things could progress in the future and Illumination give it sound and picture. Shallan's passive - Memory - is most likely from Illumination; passive abilities in general make sense only if they are results of surges, not random unrelated cool things.

1. I agree that passives are prolly related to the Surges (thought I still think the Memory is a bit of a stretch). Where I disagree is that prophecy as experienced by Renarin has anything to do with either. Does he "see and hear" the future, or does something just take over his body and force him to write the future? Also, while I realize one definition of the word "progression" would imply "the way time moves forward," that's obviously not how it's used when we see it used. I think it strains credulity past the breaking point to think that "future vision" is the same as "the way something will grow" just because you can use one word, with fairly different definitions, to describe them both. As I said above, that's like saying Renarin will one day master literally anything "in front of" him, because that's also called Progression. The Progression Surge clearly has to do with the way biological beings experience growth, not with time moving towards the future.

 

2. You're sorta explaining it backwards. You seem to be working on the assumption that his prophecy HAS to be his passive, and then trying to find a reason to explain it. Considering that we know Honor considers prophecy to be a very bad thing, I think it would be tremendously surprising for an entire Order to have their whole passive be a thing considered forbidden. We know that Lift has bizarre extra abilities, and in her case we know where it comes from. If we hadn't been expressly told, "This is because she went to the Nightwatcher," would we be assuming that the ability to turn metabolic energy into Stormlight is just the Edgedancer passive? We know Renarin should have a passive ability. We know he has a bizarre capacity for prophecy. But that's not enough reason to assume the two facts have to be related. Possible? Yes. Presumptive truth? No.

 

(Making a mental guess at how many people will reply to this saying, "We know where Lift's power came from, that's an entirely different thing.")

 

3. Recall that the passives don't seem to have anything to do with advancement in the Orders. Shallan's had her Memory forever, though I'll grant that her path up and down the Ideals is unique. Kaladin had supernatural skill in combat six (point six) years before he met Syl. If prophecy were the Truthwatcher passive, Ym should have had it long before he ever started healing orphan feet, let alone Renarin should have had these fits all these years.

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

Since Peter said the WoB might not be about Hoid, I'd say team Brandon doesn't mind the confusion. We don't really know who named the Order LW. Dustbringers were named by common people and those Radiants hated the name and preferred Releasers. 

 

Here's somewhat relevant Brandon quote

 

So Lightweaving is the ability to make illusions in the Cosmere. therefor, since surges work pretty much the same for the Orders who use them (there's a WoB for this, will add source later), and Illumination allows illusions, then Ren must be able to use the surge and create Illusions, which will be also called Lightweaving. KR's LW may include some soul-aspect or whatever to their power of Lightweaving, which make it slightly different from what Hoid and others do, yet the name remains.

A lot of assumptions in this post still. 

[Aleksiel]

1. I agree that passives are prolly related to the Surges (thought I still think the Memory is a bit of a stretch). Where I disagree is that prophecy as experienced by Renarin has anything to do with either. Does he "see and hear" the future, or does something just take over his body and force him to write the future? Also, while I realize one definition of the word "progression" would imply "the way time moves forward," that's obviously not how it's used when we see it used. I think it strains credulity past the breaking point to think that "future vision" is the same as "the way something will grow" just because you can use one word, with fairly different definitions, to describe them both. As I said above, that's like saying Renarin will one day master literally anything "in front of" him, because that's also called Progression. The Progression Surge clearly has to do with the way biological beings experience growth, not with time moving towards the future.

 

Ren himself said he sees when Kaladin asked him what's with the Truthwatchers' name.

I never claimed growth and regrowth are time-based. What Progression will include is for us to see.

 

 

2. You're sorta explaining it backwards. You seem to be working on the assumption that his prophecy HAS to be his passive, and then trying to find a reason to explain it. Considering that we know Honor considers prophecy to be a very bad thing, I think it would be tremendously surprising for an entire Order to have their whole passive be a thing considered forbidden. We know that Lift has bizarre extra abilities, and in her case we know where it comes from. If we hadn't been expressly told, "This is because she went to the Nightwatcher," would we be assuming that the ability to turn metabolic energy into Stormlight is just the Edgedancer passive? We know Renarin should have a passive ability. We know he has a bizarre capacity for prophecy. But that's not enough reason to assume the two facts have to be related. Possible? Yes. Presumptive truth? No.

 

Just because the church condemns foresight doesn't mean Honor did the same. In fact Tanavast said he's not good at seeing the future and Cultivation is better than him. He never said foresight is bad or forbidden.There's absolutely no reason for an Order (especially with a spren partly from Cultivation or even pure Cultivation) not to be able to see the future since that's kind of Cultivation's thing anyway. 

 

 

 

3. Recall that the passives don't seem to have anything to do with advancement in the Orders. Shallan's had her Memory forever, though I'll grant that her path up and down the Ideals is unique. Kaladin had supernatural skill in combat six (point six) years before he met Syl. If prophecy were the Truthwatcher passive, Ym should have had it long before he ever started healing orphan feet, let alone Renarin should have had these fits all these years.

 

Shallan was advanced and abandoned her Oaths without disbonding Pattern like the Radiants of the past did when they lefr their spren as Blades. We don't know if her passive not going away is because Pattern was still around or something else. She still had the potential to revive him and kept the passive. Kaladin shows some signs of passive in WoR after the second Oath. Since getting a Blade is different for every Order, then passive could be as well. So it's entirely possible for Ym to not have been there yet.

[Oudeis he/him]

Ren himself said he sees when Kaladin asked him what's with the Truthwatchers' name.

If you can show me a reason we should assume that he's expressly referring to the prophecy when he says this, I will respond to it.

 

He never said foresight is bad or forbidden.

Chapter 19, Starfalls. "To speak of what might be is forbidden." 

 

 

Shallan was advanced and abandoned her Oaths without disbonding Pattern like the Radiants of the past did when they lefr their spren as Blades. We don't know if her passive not going away is because Pattern was still around or something else. She still had the potential to revive him and kept the passive. Kaladin shows some signs of passive in WoR after the second Oath. Since getting a Blade is different for every Order, then passive could be as well. So it's entirely possible for Ym to not have been there yet.

I'll grant Shallan is a special case. What do you mean, Kaladin shows his passive after the second Oath? (And do you mean Third? He says the second one, "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves," in Way of Kings.) Kaladin shows his passive ability, expertise in warfare, as young as 10 years old or so when he first picks up the quarterstaff. This was more than five years before he even spoke the first oath, more than four before the first time Syl can remember finding him.

I concede that the passives might come at different times for different Orders. There is still, however, no reason to assume prophecy is Renarin's passive, and since Honor himself flat-out says it's forbidden, I think that's a pretty good reason to tentatively believe it comes from something other than Surgebinding.

[Aleksiel]

If you can show me a reason we should assume that he's expressly referring to the prophecy when he says this, I will respond to it.

 

What else could Ren possibly means if not his visions of the future? Not his eyesight for sure, that'd be retarded. Everyone sees in that meaning, so it's not worth mentioning. Here's what he says before the Everstorm hits:

 

 

“I can see it,” Renarin answered feverishly, his voice echoing in the chamber. Ardents who had been studying part of the murals looked up at him. “I can see the future itself. Why? Why, Almighty? Why have you cursed me so?”

 

So if he didn't have some visual pictures, he wouldn't have used the verb 'see' and the next time he brings it up as his specialty, it's only logical to conclude he meant foresight.

 

 

 

Chapter 19, Starfalls. "To speak of what might be is forbidden." 

This is the full quote, because I want to consider the next sentence as well:

 

 

“To speak of what might be is forbidden,” the voice said. “To speak of what was depends on perspective. But I will try to help.”

 

It's forbidden to talk about the future that depends on one's perspective, not the foresight on its own and non-subjective things are probably allowed, too. May be during the times of the KR things were different. I don't think it's canon whether or not Honor recorded the visions pre or post Recreance.

 

Tanavast himself seems to be breaking this restriction. It's interesting the sentence is in passive - he didn't forbid speaking about the future. Who then? May be it has something to do with Shardic intent? Curious quote indeed. However, it does not point towards Honor forbidding foresight or foresight being generally bad, which was your point in the previous post. Considering how TW were secretive and didn't talk about their plans, they don't sound like breaking such prohibition if it existed in the days of the KR. Actually, it even justifies their secretive nature.

 

 

 

I'll grant Shallan is a special case. What do you mean, Kaladin shows his passive after the second Oath? (And do you mean Third? He says the second one, "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves," in Way of Kings.) Kaladin shows his passive ability, expertise in warfare, as young as 10 years old or so when he first picks up the quarterstaff. This was more than five years before he even spoke the first oath, more than four before the first time Syl can remember finding him.

I concede that the passives might come at different times for different Orders. There is still, however, no reason to assume prophecy is Renarin's passive, and since Honor himself flat-out says it's forbidden, I think that's a pretty good reason to tentatively believe it comes from something other than Surgebinding.

 

Syl says in a way she's always been with Kal, which I really don't know how to interpret or what to make of it. For now I prefer to go with Kal's spearman talent being natural, non-bond thing. Although he lost most of his fighting skills after Syl dies, which kind of favors fighting being his passive.

 

However, what I meant as his passive after his second Oath is what Kal thought during the 4vs1 duel about being able to Blades without even looking, which could be related to pressure. Though it might not be passive, nay be he's getting better at using adhesion. 

[Moogle]

For whatever reason people keep suggesting that Lightweaver is a term derived solely from one surge, Illumination, and therefore is applicable to that surge alone. On the chart of KR, it seems to me that there is very clearly an Order labelled Lightweavers, which is a combination of surges, but that is being treated more like a place to double up on labeling the Illumination surge. I still think that theory is relying heavily on poor nomenclature, and being fueled by our desire to not have to change the term we've been using as a nickname for Illumination. There are pieces of the text that refer to Lightweaving and cite instances when it would appear only Illumination is being used, but I still don't think they are the same. That said, I've accepted that worse systems have been put in place for naming things in the past, and while I would be moderately disappointed, it is possible that the correct term for Illusion is Lightweaving. 

PS - Everyone keeps citing Renarin's illusions (lowercase), but have we seen him create an illusion that you would all label Lightweaving? I think that's an assumption on an assumption being used as evidence. He sees images of the future, and so far as I know that's all we get. If there's more than that, I've been subconsciously skipping Renarin paragraphs on my reread (which wouldn't be all that surprising actually).

 

To be clear on the matter, we were not saying what Renarin is doing is called Lightweaving necessarily. The issue is that Hoid has something that Brandon has said he might change the name of but is currently called Lightweaving.

 

There is a WoB saying Kaladin has met two Lightweavers. The only argument I was making there is that if Hoid counts as a "Lightweaver", then so must Renarin. And if that's true, then the WoB is wrong, so neither Renarin nor Hoid should be called "Lightweavers" in the context that Brandon was talking about.

 

As to Illumination being response for Lightweaving, the Ars Arcanum is quite clear on the matter:

Illumination: The Surge of Light, Sound, and Various Waveforms

...

LIGHTWEAVING

A second form of Surgebinding involves the manipulation of light and sound in illusory tactics common throughout the cosmere. Unlike the variations present on Sel, however, this method has a powerful Spiritual element, requiring not just a full mental picture of the intended creation, but some level of connection to it as well. The illusion is based not simply upon what the Lightweaver imagines, but upon what they desire to create. In many ways, this is the most similar ability to the original Yolish variant , which excites me. I wish to delve more into this ability, with the hope to gain a full understanding of how it relates to Cognitive and Spiritual attributes.

 

No Soulcasting involved here.

 

Perhaps there's more involved for Truthwatchers, but WoB is that Surges will function near-identically between orders who share them. Renarin can definitely use Illumination to create illusions.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Moogle

[Oudeis he/him]

Aleksiel, on 04 Nov 2014 - 1:48 PM, said:

So if he didn't have some visual pictures, he wouldn't have used the verb 'see' and the next time he brings it up as his specialty, it's only logical to conclude he meant foresight.

If he's literally seeing it, before him, in sound and light, why does no one else see it? If he's only "seeing" it in his head, then it isn't sound and light. This cannot be the same thing as the Illumination Surge which, as Moogle has pointed out, should function nearly identically to how Shallan uses it.

This also happens days apart from the "I see" quote. Even if I didn't have a second suggestion, it's still an enormous stretch to think they're the same thing.

However, I do have an alternate theory to suggest. I think he was answering what his Ideal is. When Pattern asks Shallan, "Why you?" which is fundamentally the same question if asked in an odd manner, her answer is to say she finds Truth, the Ideal of her order. I humbly suggest the Truthwatchers have as their Ideal something about observation, or judgement, or something else about seeing.

And please keep in mind, my point isn't to say that I'm right, for sure. I'm just saying, your support for why the two scenes HAD to be related was the total lack of a second option. Unless and until you can prove beyond literally any shadow of a doubt that Truthwatchers do not see, then this is at least a second option.

It's forbidden to talk about the future that depends on one's perspective, not the foresight on its own and non-subjective things are probably allowed, too. May be during the times of the KR things were different. I don't think it's canon whether or not Honor recorded the visions pre or post Recreance.

I'm having trouble parsing what you're saying here. You seem to be conflating his two statements. He speaks of predictions, and says they're bad. He speaks of looking at the past, and says it requires perspective. He never says anything about the future requiring perspective, he just says it's bad, and then he moves on.

And since one of the Visions is of the Recreance, and Tanavast says, "These are all things I've seen," I'm gonna go ahead and call it canon that the Visions were made after the Recreance.

Aleksiel, on 04 Nov 2014 - 1:48 PM, said:

Tanavast himself seems to be breaking this restriction.

...How? He's only showing visions of the past, and speaking of what must be done in the present. It's no more "speaking of what might be" than I'm "predicting" my lunch when I give the waiter my order. I think we have to grant a little leeway here; magical oracles are clearly in one category, while "what do you wanna do this weekend?" is in another.

Aleksiel, on 04 Nov 2014 - 1:48 PM, said:

Syl says in a way she's always been with Kal, which I really don't know how to interpret or what to make of it. For now I prefer to go with Kal's spearman talent being natural, non-bond thing. Although he lost most of his fighting skills after Syl dies, which kind of favors fighting being his passive.

However, what I meant as his passive after his second Oath is what Kal thought during the 4vs1 duel about being able to Blades without even looking, which could be related to pressure. Though it might not be passive, nay be he's getting better at using adhesion.

I'm pretty sure these are both the same thing. Skill with the spear, skill dodging blades, it's all just "skill fighting".

And I'm afraid it's pretty much a slam-dunk that it's Kaladin's passive. Every time he's described as fighting, he's shown with supernatural skill, including the very first time he fights ever. At one point, he touches a spear, chooses not to use it, and his fingers literally feel like they're burning. It's mentioned constantly that the people who trained him, the people who have trained scores if not hundreds of men, are constantly stunned by his innate skill. He knows forms and stances almost without being taught. When he hadn't touched a spear in months, he whips out an expert kata perfectly. That simply isn't how procedural memory works.

And la piece de resistance, when he fights, the wind visibly warps around him, shown from three different perspectives on two separate occasions. No amount of training can accomplish this clearly magical feat.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Outis

[Bloodfalcon he/him]

 

To be clear on the matter, we were not saying what Renarin is doing is called Lightweaving necessarily. The issue is that Hoid has something that Brandon has said he might change the name of but is currently called Lightweaving.

 

There is a WoB saying Kaladin has met two Lightweavers. The only argument I was making there is that if Hoid counts as a "Lightweaver", then so must Renarin. And if that's true, then the WoB is wrong, so neither Renarin nor Hoid should be called "Lightweavers" in the context that Brandon was talking about.

 

As to Illumination being response for Lightweaving, the Ars Arcanum is quite clear on the matter:

 

No Soulcasting involved here.

 

Perhaps there's more involved for Truthwatchers, but WoB is that Surges will function near-identically between orders who share them. Renarin can definitely use Illumination to create illusions.

To actually be clear on the first matter, many people are saying that Renarin is Lightweaving. The term is being used with purpose and he is being labelled "Lightweaver". It's happened several times. Again, doesn't mean Renarin isn't Lightweaving, but it is an assumption on another assumption as far as I can see. 

Hoid could be called a Lightweaver though. As I mentioned earlier, just because there are Lightweavers on Roshar doesn't mean that Lightweaver isn't a valid term on Yolen as well, in fact it may be where the name originally comes from. Hoid was there when Adonalsium shattered, suggesting that he predates the separation of the different magic systems. We know his operates similarly, though it may be through different resources. That doesn't mean he isn't a Lightweaver. 

The AA definition of Lightweaving also doesn't prove that the two forms of Illusion surge utilization are not unique. Just because no Soulcasting is being used doesn't mean every Illusion is Lightweaving. Perhaps Shallan can create images on paper and turn them into illusions while Renarin can project his visions into visible light for others to see. Maybe his version of the Illusion magic operates by creating the visions in other peoples heads vs. in visible space. Those abilities are nearly identical, but unique to each Order while only one fits the definition. 

On the topic though, it notes that Lightweaving is common throughout the Cosmere. What other instances of illusion magic have we seen outside of Roshar and Yolen versions of the power?