Compounding with other Magics

[Voidus]

I've been thinking about compounding a bit lately and then I started wondering if something similar could happen with other systems then I was thinking about Nightblood and then got to wondering, what would happen if you allomantically burned an endowed piece of metal? possibilities:

1. It would be like Feruchemy and unless you also were an Awakener nothing would happen.

2. The metal (Nightblood) would go insane and kill you

3. You would be able to compound Breaths.

Any other ideas?

[Aeshdan]

In the case of Awakened metal, I suspect you'd end up with ten thousand Breaths.

[lil_literalist]

Before you ask what would happen if you were to burn the metal, you should first consider whether the metal can be burned at all. I'm not an expert on spirit web and Awakened stuff, so I'll just let someone else try to C/D this.

[Aeshdan]

At the very least, Awakened metal can probably be burned like any other, if the original metal was Allomantic.

[Voidus]

Well a metal which has either a feruchemical or hemalurgical charge can be burned even by someone without feruchemy, it just doesn't give the ferchemical power then. So yeah I think that it should at least be able to be burned for its allomantic power.

[lil_literalist]

However, Awakened metal would be Invested (or so I would think), which is different from merely holding a Feruchemical charge. Simply because Allomancers can pull on metals that Feruchemists use as metalminds (which they can) does not mean that Allomancers can pull on metals that have Investiture (which they can't).

[Voidus]

It's not about pushing or pulling, it's about burning and Aluminum can't be pushed but can be burned so there's obviously no correlation. As a side note a metal that has a feruchemical charge is an invested object, my guess would be just not as strongly invested as Shardplate say so it depends where an Awakened metal falls in on this scale.

[Cheese Ninja]

I was going to go with "nothing happens" outside of normal metal burning. But since I don't really see any reason compounding should give you a net increase besides simply "you're cheating the system", I'll say that if the person is already an Awakener then they can Compound the breaths, although possibly only if they were the one that invested the metal with the breath in the first place.

Hmm, then it gets into whether it matters if the metal was awakened or simply invested with breaths. Remember, Awakening Nightblood involved Ninth Heightening (20000 breaths) and the usage of 1000 breaths. If you don't care about sentience you could use less Breaths, but still need the Ninth Heightening. I'm not sure it says anywhere whether you can invest stone and steel at lower levels with "My life to yours, my Breath become yours." in the same way Vivenna hid her breath inside a scarf, without any commands.

[Triasmus]

If compounding breaths was possible, which I don't think it is, I'd think that it would make a breath more powerful by supercharging it, just like the way it supercharges feruchemy. It takes the power of creation through the "pattern" the feruchemy attribute makes and makes it stronger. That's how I think of it, anyway.

[Voidus]

I was going to go with "nothing happens" outside of normal metal burning. But since I don't really see any reason compounding should give you a net increase besides simply "you're cheating the system", I'll say that if the person is already an Awakener then they can Compound the breaths, although possibly only if they were the one that invested the metal with the breath in the first place.

Hmm, then it gets into whether it matters if the metal was awakened or simply invested with breaths. Remember, Awakening Nightblood involved Ninth Heightening (20000 breaths) and the usage of 1000 breaths. If you don't care about sentience you could use less Breaths, but still need the Ninth Heightening. I'm not sure it says anywhere whether you can invest stone and steel at lower levels with "My life to yours, my Breath become yours." in the same way Vivenna hid her breath inside a scarf, without any commands.

Yeah that's pretty much what I thought too, you'd have to be the one who endowed it with Breaths in the first place, still even if it did take the Ninth heigtening to do I'm sure that you could collaborate with other Awakeners to get that much originally, after all it would only be a problem the first time, after that you'd have a even more Breaths so it wouldn't be a problem.

[Aeshdan]

If compounding breaths was possible, which I don't think it is, I'd think that it would make a breath more powerful by supercharging it, just like the way it supercharges feruchemy. It takes the power of creation through the "pattern" the feruchemy attribute makes and makes it stronger. That's how I think of it, anyway.

So maybe it would turn regular Breaths into Divine Breaths?

[Voidus]

But divine Breaths are splinters aren't they? I think that it is unlikely that people would be able to create splinters, especially if it is possible to reassemble the Shard, it would be stronger than it was before it was Splintered, although actually good method for defeating Odium XD

[Lance Alvein]

They are splinters of a shard that is still whole as well - since Endowment is still whole, if this could happen, then it would be a method for a shard to increase its own power... and if there was a way of increasing a shard's power, I would see Odium trying to figure out how to do so fairly extensively

[Windrunner]

I tend to believe that a Shard has a max possible power level, so I don't see it creating new Breaths or Splinters to boost a Shard's power. Could it just possibly give an Allomancer alternate powers like god-metal alloys do? Since the real power comes from the Shard that created the metal (atium or lerasium), it's not really all that much different. Instead of a metal the Breath would just add spiritual power and would perhaps be expended as a fuel instead of Preservation. Who knows what kind of effect Endowment's intent could have on the metals' powers

[lil_literalist]

Preservation fuels Allomancy through the process of burning metals. Anything that you achieve by burning the metal would come from Preservation. I doubt that Preservation would be able--or willing--to give power to another Shard's magic system. Trying to enhance Breaths through Allomancy would be like trying to use a Walmart gift card at Target.

[Voidus]

Works on Feruchemy which is half preservations enemy, I don't think Preservation gets a say in what allomancy affects much. Also the power doesn't come from preservation, at least not in an expendable way, Preservation CAN fuel allomancy but it doesn't always as doing so 'expends power in a way that Shards are usually unwilling to do' it comes from somewhere else. @Windrunner, I imagine that if you tried to compound a Divine Breath something like this would probably happen, normal Breaths aren't Splinters though so they wouldn't increase Endowments powers.

[Aeshdan]

But the boost would probably only last for as long as the metal was burning, which has some very weird implications.

[Voidus]

Maybe you could do the same as Feruchemy compounders and as soon as you have the extra Breaths endow them into something else or someone else.

[Commander Spoonface]

Is Allomancy releasing power inherent in the metal or using the metal to draw power into the Allomancer?

[Windrunner]

Preservation fuels Allomancy through the process of burning metals. Anything that you achieve by burning the metal would come from Preservation. I doubt that Preservation would be able--or willing--to give power to another Shard's magic system. Trying to enhance Breaths through Allomancy would be like trying to use a Walmart gift card at Target.

Not necessarily. Neither atium nor malatium are powered by Preservation. So it's not inconceivable that instead of drawing on Preservation's power when burning this invested metal you would draw on Endowment's.

@Windrunner, I imagine that if you tried to compound a Divine Breath something like this would probably happen, normal Breaths aren't Splinters though so they wouldn't increase Endowments powers.

Well, in my opinion at least, even the smaller Breaths are still powered by Endowment. The Breaths seem to be a part of the person's spiritual aspect, and Endowment is the Shard on Nalthis, so the power that drives them presumably belongs to Endowment. So if even smaller Breaths are part of Endowment, then making more of them would increase Endowments power and be impossible. Another alternate idea is that, since some Breaths are stronger then others, you could possibly draw more power from Endowment to make the Breaths in the metal stronger. Whether or not these stronger Breaths would transfer to you when the metal is gone.

[Voidus]

I don't think that that would Increase Endowments power any more than every Highstorm increases Honors power by creating more Stormlight, especially since Breaths are created every time someone is Born, if every old person on Nalthis gave away their Breaths when they died you would eventually have a LOT more Breaths, especially if the population starts growing as well. I think that because Endowment doesn't spend any energy to create Breaths (I always saw it as just an affect on the people there due to a Shards presence) that there wouldn't be an increase of power if more Shards were created. I definitely agree that this would be a problem if a Returned did it but I don't think so for ordinary Breaths.

[Windrunner]

See, I'd agree except for the fact that regular Breaths have the same affects (minuse healing and perfect appearance) that the Divine Breaths have. Once you reach the Fifth Hightening you have all the same powers as a Returned. The color, sound, agelessness and perfect healing are all the same. Just as Honor's Stormlight returns to the Shard itself, so will Breath to Endowment once its holder dies or if the item it is invested in is totally destroyed. I really doubt that most every person ever has given away their Breath so the power issue won't be a problem.

The fact is, we know that every persona has spiritual energy inside of them, that energy has always seemed to arise from the Shard of the planet. (or if the Shard didn't create the people then their presence gradually changes them, as evidenced the Aonic mutation that allows them to be taken by the Shaod.) So if the people of Nalthis are passing, Endowing, spiritual energy around then it makes sense to me that its of Endowment. The power that fuels Allomancy comes from Preservation, Hemalurgy from Ruin, and Surgebinding from Honor. It doesn't make sense to me that the power to fuel Awakening wouldn't be of Endowment. You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion though.

[Triasmus]

It seems to me that the power that fuels allomancy is the same as the power that fuels preservation, not preservation's power (which is in fact his body). Just the way the allomancer gets the power is filtered through Preservation's "intent".

Doesn't it all come from the "Power of Creation", it's just filtered a different way depending on the shard/magic?

Works on Feruchemy which is half preservations enemy, I don't think Preservation gets a say in what allomancy affects much. Also the power doesn't come from preservation, at least not in an expendable way, Preservation CAN fuel allomancy but it doesn't always as doing so 'expends power in a way that Shards are usually unwilling to do' it comes from somewhere else. @Windrunner, I imagine that if you tried to compound a Divine Breath something like this would probably happen, normal Breaths aren't Splinters though so they wouldn't increase Endowments powers.

I was thinking and I decided that the shard is unwilling to power whatever magic directly because they have their allotted power from the power of creation and if they use that power in an expendable way (by say.... powering something else that's normally powered by the power of creation) it takes forever to regenerate. Ok, the important part was in the parenthesis so I'm just gonna strike through everything else.

Oooo. That thought process just brought me to... Can the shards power each other? It'd take forever and a half to regenerate their power, so they would be "unwilling to do" it, but can it be done?

All the good shards could get together and be like "Odium's bad news. We need to do something." "Hey, you could all power me, and because... I'm honorable(too bad Honor's dead )... you know I won't take advantage of you guys in your weakened state, but I will be able to take advantage of Odium being waaaay weaker than me (unless, of course, he's one the stupid honorable people)."

Sorry. I went off topic .

[Windrunner]

It seems to me that the power that fuels allomancy is the same as the power that fuels preservation, not preservation's power (which is in fact his body). Just the way the allomancer gets the power is filtered through Preservation's "intent".

Doesn't it all come from the "Power of Creation", it's just filtered a different way depending on the shard/magic?

What you're staring at here is at the heart of a disagreement between Chaos and Zas. They both interpret said, "Powers of Creation," quote in different ways and have formulated theories based on their own interpretation. Zas's theory is the Power of Creation, and he views this quote in much the same way as you. He believes, as I understand it, that the Shards are nothing more then gateways to a larger power, the Power of Creation, that is infinite, and possibly left over from the Shattering. Zas says that all the Shards can draw on the power there, but can only use so much as time. He's also divided the magics up into Shard Powered, Human Powered, and the Power of Creation. He also believes that the Dor is the same as the Power of Creation.

Chaos looks at it differently in the Principle of Intent. He believes (as do I) that the the Power of Creation is the Shards, and so what Brandon meant when he referenced to Vin tapping into the the Power of Creation was that she was using Preservation's power. He believes that there is no infinite well of power and the Shards are as high as you get. When Chaos interprets the quote about hesitancy, he believes that that means Shards going against their intent will expend more power that will return to the them more slowly.

I'll link to them too, but you should know that they both want to update what it says in there theories when they have time, so what they said then may not currently reflect what they say now. Here is The Principle of Intent by Chaos and the Power of Creation by Zas. Also, apologies to Zas and Chaos if you feel I've misrepresented what you've said in an attempt to summarize it.

I have no idea about Shards powering one another. My gut says no, but I have no evidence to back that up so I could be crazy.

[Voidus]

On this argument the main point to consider I think is when Vin powers allomancy as Preservation and Brandons comment on the Shards powering magis.

Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the metallic arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.

If they were hesitant to do so that means that that must not be what Preservation is always doing, and so the power that fuels allomancy comes from some other source, on top of this where then does the power now come from for Aons and Surgebinding? Aona and Honor have both been Splintered so it can't be coming from them.

EDIT: sorry, one additional problem that I have, if the Dhakor are using a system powered by Dominion then it cannot be the same power source as AonDor, they cannot be accessing the Dor and yet we know that it has been mentioned multiple times that both Aons and Dhakor magic come from the Dor, so either they are both powered by the same Shard (unlikely) or the Dor (power of creation) is something that is accessed independently of which Shard gave the magic.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Voidus