WeiryWriter he/him Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Are we sure there are not more magic systems on Sel than the ones we already know (ChayShan, Dakhor, Forgery, Bloodsealing and AonDor)? No, we have no idea if there are any others or if the ones we know about are the only ones.
Meg Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Why does the Stormfather call himself a Sliver in WoR instead of a Splinter? He doesnt call himself a Sliver, he calls himself a sliver of the Almighty. It's not capitalized. Still, the terminology is appropriate, as he's a Cognitive Shadow and not in fact a spren(?). (Whether or not that means he's actually Tanavast's ghost is up for debate in my opinion.) It does seem like he holds/has held a significant portion of Honor's power (assuming Stormlight = Honor's Investiture, which is still speculation), so calling himself a sliver works. And if he's Tanavast's ghost, then he is indeed a Sliver. You're right to be confused though, because all spren should be Splinters. The Stormfather is weird. We're still not entirely sure on what's going on there. Hmm, this line in WoR might bear errors, because -- at least in my book -- the word "almighty" isn't capitalized too in this sentence. That could mean both words should be capitalized or only "Almighty." I assume that the Stormfather didn't use the word "sliver" like we are used to from Mistborn. I think he just wanted to say that he is a big part/remnant of something divine which is now dead (Honor), more kind of a very big Splinter. But I think we should keep in mind that the terminology in-world on Roshar is not necessarily identical with that from other Shardworlds or our -- the readers -- knowledge which is filled in by WoBs. I don't think (from the cited WoBs) that the Stormfather is Tanavast's cognitive shadow, but Honor's. I can't really put my finger on it, it's a gut feeling, I admit. Speaking o' which, who exactly (or not exactly) is the God Beyond. Are you suggesting that the God Beyond could be Adonalsium's shadow? A cognitive shadow as Kelsier is one? I don't believe that though Mr. Sanderson could lead my thoughts to the wrong direction here: Melhay Also, We just took for granted that Sazed is with Tindwyl now. Is that so? Brandon Sanderson Well, here's the thing. What Sazed is right now is something of a god in the classic Greek sense—a superpowered human being, elevated to a new stage of existence. Not GOD of all time and space. In a like manner, there are things that Sazed does not have power over. For instance, he couldn't bring Vin and Elend back. Where Tindwyl exists is beyond space and time, in a place Sazed hasn't learned to touch yet. He might yet. If you want to add in your heads him working through that, feel free. But as it stands at the end of the book, he isn't yet with Tindwyl. (He is, however, with Kelsier—who refused to "Go toward the light" so to speak, and has been hanging around making trouble ever since he died. You can find hints of him in Mistborn 3 at the right moments. source (from July 2009; emphasizes mine) darxbane (17 October 2008)Does Sazed get to see Tindwyl again now that he is a deity? Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008) Sazed has yet to learn how to touch the distant other side, where all souls go. He is able to see into the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms, and any spirits or souls who remain there, rather than passing on. Generally, you have to be tied to the Physical Realm in specific ways to not pass on. As for where Tindwyl is, I will have to leave this up to you to imagine for now source This WoBs make me think that "beyond" is beyond the three known Realms and thus anybody there is beyond being a cognitive shadow. I might be totally wrong. 1
Moogle Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) I assume that the Stormfather didn't use the word "sliver" like we are used to from Mistborn. I think he just wanted to say that he is a big part/remnant of something divine which is now dead (Honor), more kind of a very big Splinter. But I think we should keep in mind that the terminology in-world on Roshar is not necessarily identical with that from other Shardworlds or our -- the readers -- knowledge which is filled in by WoBs. You made a nice post overall, but I do want to respond here. Pattern + Wyndle specifically refer to "Investiture", Nalan uses the term "Invest" to refer to taking in Stormlight, and Wyndle uses the words "Physical Realm" and "Cognitive Realm". Spren on Roshar definitely know at least some of the right "cosmere words" that we know. The Stormfather using the word 'sliver' is quite significant because of this, though as I noted it's not capitalized. You're right that it might be a typo, though. Edited January 31, 2015 by Moogle
Oudeis he/him Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Isn't there a WoB that Rashek just made up the word Sliver to call himself the Sliver of Infinity, and that Mr. Sanderson just sorta went with it? I know words like Investiture and Cognitive Realm are all words that mean something very very specific within the context, but I always got the impression that Sliver was just sorta a word, not an actually technically defined term.
Meg Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Isn't there a WoB that Rashek just made up the word Sliver to call himself the Sliver of Infinity, and that Mr. Sanderson just sorta went with it? I know words like Investiture and Cognitive Realm are all words that mean something very very specific within the context, but I always got the impression that Sliver was just sorta a word, not an actually technically defined term. There is: Wetlander Please explain what you will about Shards and Splintering and Slivers. Brandon Sanderson An event happened long ago which destroyed something called Adonalsium into 16 pieces. And 16 people took up that power. Question People? Brandon Sanderson I call all intelligent species people. If someone takes up the power and lets go of it, it has the effect much like a balloon that's been stretched and then the air is let out. I call that a Sliver; based off of the Lord Ruler calling himself the "Sliver of Infinity". The Lord Ruler is someone who held the power and then released it. And so, current Slivers are the Lord Ruler, Kelsier, and there may be others around who at one point held the power and let go of it. A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness. Wetlander So is that like the mists and the Well? Are they... Brandon Sanderson They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other splinters. Wetlander Are the highstorms related to the splintering of Honor? Brandon Sanderson The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. You have seen splinters quite a bit on various planets. source: Steelheart Signing, Oct 14th, 2013 I copied the whole quote (with my emphasizes) because it's always nice to have. edit: @ Moogle: I only want to throw that possibility in, not say it's the only one that is right. Edited January 31, 2015 by Meg 1
WeiryWriter he/him Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Isn't there a WoB that Rashek just made up the word Sliver to call himself the Sliver of Infinity, and that Mr. Sanderson just sorta went with it? I know words like Investiture and Cognitive Realm are all words that mean something very very specific within the context, but I always got the impression that Sliver was just sorta a word, not an actually technically defined term. Actually I want to say Brandon has said something about how the fact that he knew to refer to himself as a Sliver showed that Rashek knew more about the cosmere than he let on. Let's see if I can actually find it. (so Brandon may have taken Sliver and ran with it because of the Lord Ruler, but it is a term in-world)
Oudeis he/him Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Looks like Meg beat you to it. Thanks, Meg!
WeiryWriter he/him Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Looks like Meg beat you to it. Thanks, Meg! I actually had a different WoB in mind, but I"m not finding it right now.
WeiryWriter he/him Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Is this what you are looking for? No, it specifically refers to the fact that he knew enough to refer to himself as a Sliver.
Guest Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Oh, okay. I know that there are a few about that, but I too am having a hard time finding them.
Meg Posted February 1, 2015 Posted February 1, 2015 (edited) I actually had a different WoB in mind, but I"m not finding it right now. I think I recall it, too, but I'm not finding it. Might this information come from the annotations (I don't have my e-book at hand now and searching trough all annotations is frustrating.)? edit: I found what I remembered.It's not a WoB but from Sazed: Rashek soon found a balance in the changes he made to the world—which was fortunate, for his power burned away quite quickly. Though the power he held seemed immense to him, it was truly only a tiny fraction of something much greater. Of course, he did end up naming himself the "Sliver of Infinity" in his religion. Perhaps he understood more than I give him credit for. The Hero of Ages, Epigraphs, Chapter 6 Did you think of the same, Weiry? Edited February 1, 2015 by Meg
Alterodent he/him Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 Someone has probably thought of this before, but I will ask it anyway... If you have 3 different kinds of marbles, and someone tells you that you may have three, there are ten possible combinations. Is it possible that this is why there are ten orders of Radiant, with Cultivation, Honor and Odium each contributing (willingly or otherwise)? 1
skaa he/him Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 Someone has probably thought of this before, but I will ask it anyway... If you have 3 different kinds of marbles, and someone tells you that you may have three, there are ten possible combinations. Is it possible that this is why there are ten orders of Radiant, with Cultivation, Honor and Odium each contributing (willingly or otherwise)? It makes sense, but we don't know. You could include that in our ever-growing list of stuff to ask Brandon or make a thread about it in the Stormlight Archive forum.
Zas678 he/him Posted March 5, 2015 Author Posted March 5, 2015 We've tried to pin down Brandon on Shard-to-Magic system ratio, but it doesn't really work, because it depends on how you count it. For example. Scadrial. How many magics does it have? You could argue 3- Hemalurgy, Feruchemy, and Allomancy. Or you could argue a bunch more, with Tineyes and Pewterarms each being their own magic. So really, it depends on how you count. As Brandon says here: WINDRUNNER17 ()Why does Scadrial, which has two Shards, only have three manifestations of investiture, (Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy) but Sel, also with two Shards, has five manifestations of investiture (AonDor, Dakhor, ChayShan, Forgery, and Bloodsealing)?BRANDON SANDERSONSel's magics are much more regionalized than Scadrial's. Each area has its own manifestation, but they're all actually the same magic. So really there is one magic on Sel—much as Windrunning and Lightweaving on Roshar are kind of different magics, but also kind of the same. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=979#111 RHANDRICHow many magic systems are there on Roshar?BRANDON SANDERSON It depends on your definition. Is Windrunning its own magic system, or is it a division of a larger magic system? Are the ten different Surges each their own magic system, or are they all the same one?RHANDRICIf you assume the surges are all one.BRANDON SANDERSONWell then you would have Surgebinding, and the Old Magic, those are two at least, and there are things that are not explained in those at all, and how do you count creating fabrials? Is that a science and not a magic? Is that its own magic system?RHANDRICIt's a science, because anyone can do it.BRANDON SANDERSONSo Awakening is not a magic, then? Awakening's a science? Because anyone can Awaken if they get the breath.RHANDRICThat's something that stood out to me, because in all your other magic systems that we've seen so far there has to be some sort of snapping to occur, and that's unique, because- [...] Is there an active magic system on Threnody?BRANDON SANDERSONThrenody has a non Shard-based...it depends on what you call a magic system. Do spirits coming back from the dead count as magic? It's science to them, but, it's goofy science. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1052#108
Curiosity he/him Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 Perhaps a good wording for this is "Is there a magic system on Roshar which is of Honor in the same way that Allomancy is of Preservation?" or some such variation on the wording there. The trick with this is how to ask about Feruchemy-like, balance systems. "What is the equilibrium system between Odium and Honor?"
laxrulz777 he/him Posted March 6, 2015 Posted March 6, 2015 Someone has probably thought of this before, but I will ask it anyway... If you have 3 different kinds of marbles, and someone tells you that you may have three, there are ten possible combinations. Is it possible that this is why there are ten orders of Radiant, with Cultivation, Honor and Odium each contributing (willingly or otherwise)?Ten I always assumed that the way investiture manifests itself is "baked in" to the shards. WoB has confirmed as much with the comments about Hemallurgy still existing in the Harmony era. I take this to mean that, regardless of the shardholder, the very fact that Preservation and Ruin are together on a world results in Allomancy / Feruchemy / Hemallurgy. Now what this doesn't tell us, is what would happen if a shard moved worlds permanently. If Odium left to fight Harmony in Scadrial, would a new magic type pop up or would the very nature of magic itself change to some new system bearing no resemblance to the old one? I think you're on to something but I'm not sure the math is the reason. I think that we have three magic types on Roshar (Surgebinding, Old Magic and Voidbinding). Some people try to put these into neat little boxes (Surgebinding is Honor, Old Magic is Cultivation, Voidbinding is Odium) but it seems more likely to me that they're the inevitable byproduct of the combination of three shards. Note: You could convince me that, when the Investiture infuses the world, it looks and feels a particular way because of the Shard but it's actual implementation gets skewed by other shards present. So, on Roshar, we might have Surgebinding because anywhere Honor was would have something like Surgebinding. But the presence of Cultivation and Odium gives it particular twists... If Honor were to move to Scadrial, suddenly Surgebinding would be possible on Scadrial but because it would be affected by the presence of Ruin & Preservation, it would look different then Surgebinding on Roshar. IF you're right, we've got ten types HHH - Adhesion OOO - Division (seems the natural fit for this) CCC - Progression (seems logical here as well) HHO - Gravitation HHC - Tension (picked this because Bondsmith seem most aligned with Honor so having an HHH and an HHC makes sense) OOC - Illumination (it brings with it a certain level of deceit OOH - CCO - Transformation (has some destructive attributes but generally about building things) CCH HCO - Transportation (There's a certain symmetry to having all three of them working together to create the surge that gets you into the other realms) I don't know. Might hold some water. I guess we'll see. If there end up being 10 types of Old Magic (possible) and 10 types of Voidbindings (pseudo confirmed) then maybe you're on to something bigger.
laxrulz777 he/him Posted March 6, 2015 Posted March 6, 2015 Perhaps a good wording for this is "Is there a magic system on Roshar which is of Honor in the same way that Allomancy is of Preservation?" or some such variation on the wording there. The trick with this is how to ask about Feruchemy-like, balance systems. "What is the equilibrium system between Odium and Honor?" I'd like to see the question, "If, for example, Odium left Roshar and took up permanent residence on Scadrial, would Surgebinding continue to function in the same way? And would a new type of magic (voidbinding?) pop up on Scadrial?"
Blaze1616 he/him Posted March 6, 2015 Posted March 6, 2015 I'd like to see the question, "If, for example, Odium left Roshar and took up permanent residence on Scadrial, would Surgebinding continue to function in the same way? And would a new type of magic (voidbinding?) pop up on Scadrial?" The answer to this should be yes, because Odium has "invested" a portion of himself on Roshar, according to Brandon. That said, I do not think the concept of combinations of cultivation, honor, and odium make the 10 orders because I do not think Odium is involved. Quotes from the book imply he isn't, anyways, such as when Syl refers to the Everstorm: A new storm. It’s not of us, but of him. This implies Syl has no relation to Odium (and does imply relations to Cultivation).
laxrulz777 he/him Posted March 6, 2015 Posted March 6, 2015 This implies Syl has no relation to Odium (and does imply relations to Cultivation). I tend to agree with you though the Spren's knowledge of the magic is unlikely to be perfect or free from personal bias so I wouldn't consider authoratative. It's also possible that Honorspren are a spren type that doesn't have any Odium while (for example) Cryptic spren might be have parts of Odium. My point about the magic systems and the shards is that we don't know which of the following are true: 1) Each shard will have magic manifest on a planet they inhabit in a way that is inevitable and inextricably linked to the Shard's intent 2) The combination of planet and shards (or just shards) produces a unique magic system. A planet with Honor and Preservation doesn't get Allomancy and Surgebinding, it gets something completely different and unique. 3) Each shard has a type of magic that is unique to it. If they change planets, that type of magic will follow them. However, planets with multiple shards will affect eachother's magic in interesting, often unforeseen ways. 4) Some secret 4th choice that Brandon is keeping cleverly to himself.
Axies he/him Posted March 18, 2015 Posted March 18, 2015 Someone has probably thought of this before, but I will ask it anyway... If you have 3 different kinds of marbles, and someone tells you that you may have three, there are ten possible combinations. Is it possible that this is why there are ten orders of Radiant, with Cultivation, Honor and Odium each contributing (willingly or otherwise)? A firend of mine has a similar theory but not with C/H/O... She thinks that if you have 3 different kinds of Realms... you still have 10 combinations. Her theory is that Surgebinding is from Honor+Cultivation but the Surges came in 10 combinatios of Spiritual / Cognitive / Physical 4
Triasmus Posted March 19, 2015 Posted March 19, 2015 I tend to agree with you though the Spren's knowledge of the magic is unlikely to be perfect or free from personal bias so I wouldn't consider authoratative. It's also possible that Honorspren are a spren type that doesn't have any Odium while (for example) Cryptic spren might be have parts of Odium. My point about the magic systems and the shards is that we don't know which of the following are true: 1) Each shard will have magic manifest on a planet they inhabit in a way that is inevitable and inextricably linked to the Shard's intent 2) The combination of planet and shards (or just shards) produces a unique magic system. A planet with Honor and Preservation doesn't get Allomancy and Surgebinding, it gets something completely different and unique. 3) Each shard has a type of magic that is unique to it. If they change planets, that type of magic will follow them. However, planets with multiple shards will affect eachother's magic in interesting, often unforeseen ways. 4) Some secret 4th choice that Brandon is keeping cleverly to himself. I would add a potential option of each planet having a specific "focus", e.g. the magic of whatever Shards are present on Scadrial will always manifest themselves in some relation to metal. Something to do with how the planet's inherent investiture interacts with the shards' investiture. I feel like I've recently read a quote that had something to do with that... 1
Curiosity he/him Posted April 3, 2015 Posted April 3, 2015 In Lift's interlude (WoR I-9), Darkness/Nalan is awesome. How? Is it the larkin, or does he have an Honorblade?
Asha'man Logain Posted April 4, 2015 Posted April 4, 2015 No, we have no idea if there are any others or if the ones we know about are the only ones. Actually last year at JordonCon, I asked for a cosmere clue about Sel. He said that we have not seen all the magic on sel.
kinxer he/him Posted April 11, 2015 Posted April 11, 2015 So, I was taking a look at the map of Roshar, and I happened to notice the names of the oceans. Do we have any WoB or even speculation about how literal the name "Steamwater Ocean" is? Also, is it safe to assume that the "Ocean of Origins" simply refers to Highstorms?
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