Plot Twist in Archive, humans really belong to Roshar

[Dofurion]

Ok, let me develop the point.

Throughout the 4 archive books published to date (not counting the x.5) we have received several revelations that have changed the story of Roshar.

1. In The Way of Kings we learn that in ancient times the Silver Kingdoms existed and that there were Voidbringers who fought against humanity and that they are almost mythical entities that are used today to represent "evil."
2. In Words of Radiants We Learned That Parshmenios were actually mythological voidbringers, which is difficult to believe (In-World) given its docile nature and lack of initiative to perform any action.
3. In Oathbringer we discover that they are actually the humans who are originally called voidbringers since they could not hear the tones and brought their God (Odium) that metaphorically also was known as such.
4. And finally in Rhythm of War we understood a little more about the context of what happened in the desolations and why we find ourselves in the current situation.

So since in each book we are receiving recontextualization of the origins of humanity in Roshar, it occurred to me to think about what other plot twist there could be on this topic in the following books, and what occurred to me is that current humans do belong to Roshar, or at least the current humans.
Now I know that the previous point may seem redundant, the human inhabitants of Roshar were clearly born on that planet and have been there for millennia but I am putting it from the point of view of a Singer or a Fused, the humans are invaders of our lands that took the entire continent, even though they were given lands for themselves (aka Shin Kak Nish). And therefore we have the right to recover them. That is the thinking of the Fused (Or at least the part that is still sane.)

Now, this is the panorama we currently know as readers, but something still does not fit. For example, we have the dance organized between singers and humans in which Hoid participated, the existence of the Unkalaki and the Herdazians as human/singer hybrids among several other things that indicate that humans had more mobility in the continent and that not the Singers were not so restrictive with their territory as not to perminate humans in it.
So what do I propose? Simple, Sanderson has been diverting attention with the WoBs of the Unkalakis and in reality all the humans of Roshar are descendants of the Singers (Except the Shin and the Irilai), that would further explain the hair issue in Roshar among other things.

Fine points:

My argument is that humans have indeed inherited characteristics from the Singers, only that these characteristics are qualified according to the shape in which the Singer was when granting the child.
In the case of the Unkalaki, their ancestors would be Singers in work form (Gravitationspren), which could also explain their relationship with Cultivation (Remembering that their pure tone is the one that sounds when acquiring this form).
From the above we could speculate that the Herdazians are descendants of Singers who were in the form that the Reachers' cousin Spren will grant, given that if we assume that all (or most) of the Spren that make up the Shradplate grant forms we could also speculate that these shapes have some other characteristic related to the elements that surround the Radiants, and given that there is a body focus such as the nails... Herdazians.
And while the above is already speculation, it may then be that the reason why the Rosharians have the issue with hair is that they are mostly descendants of the Singers with the form given by the Spren cousins of the Mistspren (Here for me , it would be super convenient if it were for those who are in the Mateform since they should be the ones who would be most conducive to reproducing with humans, but the essences do not fit).

 

In summary, I consider that this may be one of the revelations of the fifth book since we will go to Shinovar, that humans today do belong both metaphorically and literally to Roshar.

Edited March 26 by Dofurion

[Treamayne]

Great theory. Note: This topic was skirted in RoW between Navani and Raboniel - Ch 76:

Spoiler

“What is this?” Raboniel said.

“You can hear the songs and rhythms of Roshar,” Navani said. “Perhaps it’s merely because you have better hearing.”

Raboniel hummed a skeptical rhythm, but Navani continued setting the gemstones.

“We can hear them because we are the children of Roshar,” Raboniel said. “You are not.”

“I’ve lived here all my life,” Navani said. “I’m as much a child of this planet as you are.”

“Your ancestors were from another realm.”

“I’m not speaking of my ancestors,” Navani said, strapping the sheath on so the flats of the gemstones touched her arm. “I’m speaking of myself.” She reset her experiment on the table, sending new lines of Stormlight and Voidlight out of gemstones, making them swirl at the center around an empty one.

“Sing Honor’s tone and rhythm again, Ancient One,” Navani asked.

Raboniel sat back on her stool, but complied. Navani closed her eyes, tightening her arm sheath. It had been built as a fabrial, but she wasn’t interested in that function. All she wanted was something that would hold large gemstones and press them against her skin.

She could feel them now, cool but warming to her touch. Infused gemstones always had a tempest inside. Was there a sound to them too? A vibration …

Could she hear it in there? The tone, the rhythm? With Raboniel singing, she thought she could. She matched that tone, and felt something on her arm. The gemstones reacting—or rather the Stormlight inside reacting.

There was a beat to it. One that Raboniel’s rhythm only hinted at. Navani could sing the tone and feel the gemstones respond. It was like having a stronger singer beside her—she could adapt her voice to match. The Stormlight itself guided her—providing a control, with a beat and rhythm.

Navani added that rhythm to her tone, tapping her foot, concentrating. She imagined a phantom song to give it structure.

“Yes!” Raboniel said, cutting off. “Yes, that’s it!”

It seems logical that most Ethnicities would have at least some Singer heritage over the thousands of years they have lived on Roshar - even if most don't have enough to have such obvious effects as the Herdazian nails and Unkalaki Jaw bones. Not just Hair color patterns, but Thaylen Eyebrows are more like Singer hairstrands, Babatharnam's shallow vein-patterns, etc. 

[alder24]

11 hours ago, Dofurion said:

So since in each book we are receiving recontextualization of the origins of humanity in Roshar, it occurred to me to think about what other plot twist there could be on this topic in the following books, and what occurred to me is that current humans do belong to Roshar, or at least the current humans.

A future plot twist? That was already revealed in RoW, that's known and accepted by now. Navani heard the pure tone of Honor proving she is a child of Roshar, that she belongs to Roshar just as Singers do. RoW ch 76:

Quote

“We can hear them because we are the children of Roshar,” Raboniel said. “You are not.”
“I’ve lived here all my life,” Navani said. “I’m as much a child of this planet as you are.”
“Your ancestors were from another realm.”
“I’m not speaking of my ancestors,” Navani said, strapping the sheath on so the flats of the gemstones touched her arm. “I’m speaking of myself.”
[...]
She could feel them now, cool but warming to her touch. Infused gemstones always had a tempest inside. Was there a sound to them too? A vibration …
Could she hear it in there? The tone, the rhythm? With Raboniel singing, she thought she could. She matched that tone, and felt something on her arm. The gemstones reacting—or rather the Stormlight inside reacting.
There was a beat to it. One that Raboniel’s rhythm only hinted at. Navani could sing the tone and feel the gemstones respond. It was like having a stronger singer beside her—she could adapt her voice to match. The Stormlight itself guided her—providing a control, with a beat and rhythm

RoW ch 110:

Quote

“Honor…” Navani whispered. “Honor is not … dead. He lives inside the hearts … of his children.…”
Does he? Truly? It seemed a plea, not a challenge.
Does he? Navani searched deep. Was what she’d been doing honorable? Creating fabrials? Imprisoning spren? Could she really say that? Odium’s tone rang in her ears, though she’d stopped humming its inverse.
Then, a pure song. Rising up from within her. Orderly, powerful. Had she done harm without realizing it? Possibly. Had she made mistakes? Certainly. But she’d been trying to help. That was her journey. A journey to discover, learn, and make the world better.
Honor’s song welled up inside her, and she sang it

 

12 hours ago, Dofurion said:

Now, this is the panorama we currently know as readers, but something still does not fit. For example, we have the dance organized between singers and humans in which Hoid participated, the existence of the Unkalaki and the Herdazians as human/singer hybrids among several other things that indicate that humans had more mobility in the continent and that not the Singers were not so restrictive with their territory as not to perminate humans in it.

Both of those things could have happened during Desolations, there were humans that were fighting on Odium's side.Intermixing of species could have happened in between Deoslations. Those two things don't really say anything and it's not important if humans belong to Roshar or not - you can throw a party for your newly arrived guests, can't you?

12 hours ago, Dofurion said:

So what do I propose? Simple, Sanderson has been diverting attention with the WoBs of the Unkalakis and in reality all the humans of Roshar are descendants of the Singers (Except the Shin and the Irilai), that would further explain the hair issue in Roshar among other things.

Fine points:

My argument is that humans have indeed inherited characteristics from the Singers, only that these characteristics are qualified according to the shape in which the Singer was when granting the child.
In the case of the Unkalaki, their ancestors would be Singers in work form (Gravitationspren), which could also explain their relationship with Cultivation (Remembering that their pure tone is the one that sounds when acquiring this form).
From the above we could speculate that the Herdazians are descendants of Singers who were in the form that the Reachers' cousin Spren will grant, given that if we assume that all (or most) of the Spren that make up the Shradplate grant forms we could also speculate that these shapes have some other characteristic related to the elements that surround the Radiants, and given that there is a body focus such as the nails... Herdazians.
And while the above is already speculation, it may then be that the reason why the Rosharians have the issue with hair is that they are mostly descendants of the Singers with the form given by the Spren cousins of the Mistspren (Here for me , it would be super convenient if it were for those who are in the Mateform since they should be the ones who would be most conducive to reproducing with humans, but the essences do not fit).

 

In summary, I consider that this may be one of the revelations of the fifth book since we will go to Shinovar, that humans today do belong both metaphorically and literally to Roshar.

While I think it's possible for Singer's DNA to be present in Rosharan humans, I don't think it would be relevant in any way, or be a plot twist - just like all humans on Earth have a tiny bit of Neanderthal DNA it doesn't mean that we are direct descendants of Neanderthals. We're not, Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals just intermixed a few times and this was later carried by blood to the rest. Instead of humanity being direct descendants of one of the Singers's form (which I find unlikely as there would be some unique physical characteristics pointing at it and I find none, I don't know what do you mean with "Rosharans have issue with hair"), I think it's more like some Horneaters or Herdazians, who are direct descendants of Singers, have children with normal humans, which seeded and diffused their Singers DNA in human population, which over time became a tiny, inconsequential bit. 

[bmcclure7]

14 hours ago, Dofurion said:

Ok, let me develop the point.

Throughout the 4 archive books published to date (not counting the x.5) we have received several revelations that have changed the story of Roshar.

1. In The Way of Kings we learn that in ancient times the Silver Kingdoms existed and that there were Voidbringers who fought against humanity and that they are almost mythical entities that are used today to represent "evil."
2. In Words of Radiants We Learned That Parshmenios were actually mythological voidbringers, which is difficult to believe (In-World) given its docile nature and lack of initiative to perform any action.
3. In Oathbringer we discover that they are actually the humans who are originally called voidbringers since they could not hear the tones and brought their God (Odium) that metaphorically also was known as such.
4. And finally in Rhythm of War we understood a little more about the context of what happened in the desolations and why we find ourselves in the current situation.

So since in each book we are receiving recontextualization of the origins of humanity in Roshar, it occurred to me to think about what other plot twist there could be on this topic in the following books, and what occurred to me is that current humans do belong to Roshar, or at least the current humans.
Now I know that the previous point may seem redundant, the human inhabitants of Roshar were clearly born on that planet and have been there for millennia but I am putting it from the point of view of a Singer or a Fused, the humans are invaders of our lands that took the entire continent, even though they were given lands for themselves (aka Shin Kak Nish). And therefore we have the right to recover them. That is the thinking of the Fused (Or at least the part that is still sane.)

Now, this is the panorama we currently know as readers, but something still does not fit. For example, we have the dance organized between singers and humans in which Hoid participated, the existence of the Unkalaki and the Herdazians as human/singer hybrids among several other things that indicate that humans had more mobility in the continent and that not the Singers were not so restrictive with their territory as not to perminate humans in it.
So what do I propose? Simple, Sanderson has been diverting attention with the WoBs of the Unkalakis and in reality all the humans of Roshar are descendants of the Singers (Except the Shin and the Irilai), that would further explain the hair issue in Roshar among other things.

Fine points:

My argument is that humans have indeed inherited characteristics from the Singers, only that these characteristics are qualified according to the shape in which the Singer was when granting the child.
In the case of the Unkalaki, their ancestors would be Singers in work form (Gravitationspren), which could also explain their relationship with Cultivation (Remembering that their pure tone is the one that sounds when acquiring this form).
From the above we could speculate that the Herdazians are descendants of Singers who were in the form that the Reachers' cousin Spren will grant, given that if we assume that all (or most) of the Spren that make up the Shradplate grant forms we could also speculate that these shapes have some other characteristic related to the elements that surround the Radiants, and given that there is a body focus such as the nails... Herdazians.
And while the above is already speculation, it may then be that the reason why the Rosharians have the issue with hair is that they are mostly descendants of the Singers with the form given by the Spren cousins of the Mistspren (Here for me , it would be super convenient if it were for those who are in the Mateform since they should be the ones who would be most conducive to reproducing with humans, but the essences do not fit).

 

In summary, I consider that this may be one of the revelations of the fifth book since we will go to Shinovar, that humans today do belong both metaphorically and literally to Roshar.

good theroy but wrong only mate form and slave form are fertile we have wobs say as much

[alder24]

1 hour ago, bmcclure7 said:

good theroy but wrong only mate form and slave form are fertile we have wobs say as much

Not true:

Spoiler

RenegadeShroom

You said earlier that Parshendi are primarily asexual, does that extend to all Listeners -- parshmen, and those descended from Listeners, like Horneaters and Herdazians -- or is it just the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform. Horneaters and Herdazians are not, as a rule, though there are higher instances of asexuality among them.

uchoo786

I was actually wondering about how Parshmen would reproduce if they are only in slaveform? I thought one had to be in mateform in order to reproduce?

Also, could Horneaters and Herdazians change forms as well?

Brandon Sanderson

For the first, mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations.

For the second, RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 19, 2015)

 

[Dofurion]

4 hours ago, alder24 said:

(which I find unlikely as there would be some unique physical characteristics pointing at it and I find none, I don't know what do you mean with "Rosharans have issue with hair")

There I was referring to the fact that the hair of the Rosharians works like that of cats, not going into issues of recessive and dominant, but rather that they come to present the colors of both parents at the same time.

[Master Silver]

Would that mean that the reason the Alethi are taller and like war is because of War form ancestry?

[Dofurion]

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

Would that mean that the reason the Alethi are taller and like war is because of War form ancestry?

Not really that specific one, since the warform is femalen/malen

Edited March 26 by Dofurion

[alder24]

4 hours ago, Dofurion said:

There I was referring to the fact that the hair of the Rosharians works like that of cats, not going into issues of recessive and dominant, but rather that they come to present the colors of both parents at the same time.

You mean Adolin? He's half-Riran, thus has Iriali roots which might cause this since they have "inhuman ancestry" - WoB. Dalinar also has gray-black hair, but he's aging. I don't really remember who else is there with those two-colored hairs.

[Treamayne]

17 hours ago, Dofurion said:

There I was referring to the fact that the hair of the Rosharians works like that of cats, not going into issues of recessive and dominant, but rather that they come to present the colors of both parents at the same time.

12 hours ago, alder24 said:

You mean Adolin? He's half-Riran, thus has Iriali roots which might cause this since they have "inhuman ancestry" - WoB. Dalinar also has gray-black hair, but he's aging. I don't really remember who else is there with those two-colored hairs.

But Adolin's hair isn't only because he's part Riran (who, themselves, are only part Iriali) - we just hear about him the most because:

1. Primary Charachter
2. Some Alethi are obsessed with "purity" (Cosmere Death Eaters)

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

The hair color, is there a link between the hair color in Warbreaker and the hair color in, with, like the Alethi always have black, and I can't remember the other country that always have gold hair coloring?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.  You are noticing something very interesting which was done deliberately.  

Words of Radiance Omaha signing (March 13, 2014)

Quote

Questioner

On Roshar, the Alethi, their hair breeds... I was wondering, what happens if, say, Adolin and Shalan have a child. Does that child have red and black and golden hair? Does this mean that at some point in the future you could have a rainbow haired child?

Brandon Sanderson

You can have a rainbow haired child on Roshar. Do know that the hair breeds true. It's easy for it to be bred out.

Barnes & Noble B-Fest 2016 (June 11, 2016)

Quote

PrncRny (paraphrased)

So Alethi hair "breeds true" based on the individual's ancestry, why then does Renarin have more black than Adolin?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

As with us regular people, different shades of skin can be had within the same family with the same parents, its just a matter of how their DNA falls out. No different here. Nothing special with Adolin and Renarin's hair.

Idaho Falls signing 2014 (Nov. 29, 2014)

Quote

Argent

Rlain has a red and black beard whose colors match his marbled skin. Does this mean that the singer hair reflects their skin colors? Does Venli's white and red skin mean her hair strands are also white and red?

Brandon Sanderson

That is... That's what I have right now. That actually happens very commonly in the animal kingdom, right, that the pattern is on the skin. So yes, the answer is yes. But that's not come up in the books and I don't know if it will.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

 

Ialai reportedly has mixed hair and uses dye to cover it (WoK Ch 54):

Spoiler

They weren’t at the dining table any longer, and so Sadeas’s wife had joined them. Ialai was a curvaceous woman who reportedly dyed her hair. That indicated foreign blood in her family’s past—Alethi hair always bred true, proportionate to how much Alethi blood you had. Foreign blood would mean stray hairs of another color. Ironically, mixed blood was far more common in lighteyes than darkeyes. Darkeyes rarely married foreigners, but the Alethi houses often needed alliances or money from outside.

Borodin is also mentioned to have "dark" (but not Black) hair. Renarin, with the same parents, has Alethi Black hair, with only a few locks of Riran yellow. Inkima (Jakamav's Date) has mixed hair, but dyes it black; while Danlan has mostly auburn hair with some Alethi black and does not dye it. Laral has mixed yellow and black hair, but started dying it when Roshone came. One of the unnamed soldiers in Kal's squad was mixed blond and black hair (WoK Ch 1 - Cenn POV), Teshev has streaks of blonde in her Alethi Black hair, with Violet eyes.

That's from searching WoK and WoR, but I can search the other texts if needed. There's also this from the Axies interlude (I-5):

Spoiler

He continued whistling as he made his way through the town to the dockside. Around him flowed large numbers of the golden-haired Iriali. The hair bred true, like black Alethi hair—the purer your blood was, the more locks of gold you had. And it wasn’t merely blond, it was truly gold, lustrous in the sun.

He had a fondness for the Iriali.

Hope that helps

Edited March 27 by Treamayne
SPAG

[bmcclure7]

10 hours ago, alder24 said:

Not true:

  Hide contents

RenegadeShroom

You said earlier that Parshendi are primarily asexual, does that extend to all Listeners -- parshmen, and those descended from Listeners, like Horneaters and Herdazians -- or is it just the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform. Horneaters and Herdazians are not, as a rule, though there are higher instances of asexuality among them.

uchoo786

I was actually wondering about how Parshmen would reproduce if they are only in slaveform? I thought one had to be in mateform in order to reproduce?

Also, could Horneaters and Herdazians change forms as well?

Brandon Sanderson

For the first, mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations.

For the second, RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 19, 2015)

 

 Exactly the second form is slave form I mentioned it already.   All  Other forms are in the neuter gender  And Therefore infertle.  My point still stands. 

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Hope that helps

This does help a lot. Thanks.

 

7 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

 Exactly the second form is slave form I mentioned it already.   All  Other forms are in the neuter gender  And Therefore infertle.  My point still stands. 

"Several forms are different in terms of being asexual, including Slaveform" - not only Slaveform is different (important note: asexuality means not feeling a sexual attraction, but such a person is still fully capable of having kids). And "Matefore isn't the only one capable of reproducing, it's specialization" - the WoB clearly states that many forms are capable of having children, even if some of them don't feel any sexual attraction. Mateform is the most specialized form for reproduction, but others are also capable of doing it, just like other forms can swing a sword, not just Warform. 

[Argenti]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

This does help a lot. Thanks.

 

"Several forms are different in terms of being asexual, including Slaveform" - not only Slaveform is different (important note: asexuality means not feeling a sexual attraction, but such a person is still fully capable of having kids). And "Matefore isn't the only one capable of reproducing, it's specialization" - the WoB clearly states that many forms are capable of having children, even if some of them don't feel any sexual attraction. Mateform is the most specialized form for reproduction, but others are also capable of doing it, just like other forms can swing a sword, not just Warform. 

In general, I imagine the forms with too much carapace or are hyper-specialized don't reproduce; Warform, for example, may be unable to. But forms like Workform or Nimbleform probably could, or rather we have no reason to suspect they couldn't.

[Treamayne]

7 hours ago, alder24 said:

"Several forms are different in terms of being asexual, including Slaveform" - not only Slaveform is different (important note: asexuality means not feeling a sexual attraction, but such a person is still fully capable of having kids). And "Matefore isn't the only one capable of reproducing, it's specialization" - the WoB clearly states that many forms are capable of having children, even if some of them don't feel any sexual attraction. Mateform is the most specialized form for reproduction, but others are also capable of doing it, just like other forms can swing a sword, not just Warform.

1 hour ago, Argenti said:

In general, I imagine the forms with too much carapace or are hyper-specialized don't reproduce; Warform, for example, may be unable to. But forms like Workform or Nimbleform probably could, or rather we have no reason to suspect they couldn't.

You both are saying the same thing as far as I can tell. From a fertility standpoint, we have no indication that any forms are infertile. We do know that forms with the Malen and Femalen genders tend to be Asexual and tend to not experience sexual or romantic attraction. Forms with the Male and Female genders may have any sexual orientation, the full range of atttraction, as well as being fertile (and are therefore more likely to reproduce). 

 

[Argenti]

Just now, Treamayne said:

You both are saying the same thing as far as I can tell. From a fertility standpoint, we have no indication that any forms are infertile. We do know that forms with the Malen and Femalen genders tend to be Asexual and tend to not experience sexual or romantic attraction. Forms with the Male and Female genders may have any sexual orientation, the full range of atttraction, as well as being fertile (and are therefore more likely to reproduce). 

 

Yeah, I was agreeing, not disagreeing.

[Treamayne]

2 minutes ago, Argenti said:

Yeah, I was agreeing, not disagreeing.

That was not apparant to me, it sounded more like a correction than a concurrence. 

My Apologies

Edited March 27 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Argenti]

2 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

That was not apparant to me, it sounded more like a correction than a concurrence. 

My Apologies

All good. My skin is thicker than that.

[bmcclure7]

9 hours ago, alder24 said:

This does help a lot. Thanks.

 

"Several forms are different in terms of being asexual, including Slaveform" - not only Slaveform is different (important note: asexuality means not feeling a sexual attraction, but such a person is still fully capable of having kids). And "Matefore isn't the only one capable of reproducing, it's specialization" - the WoB clearly states that many forms are capable of having children, even if some of them don't feel any sexual attraction. Mateform is the most specialized form for reproduction, but others are also capable of doing it, just like other forms can swing a sword, not just Warform. 

1.  Another wob he calls them neuter gender That strongly implies they're infertile.

 

2. This isn't an either or,  you can be both asexual and infertile in fact. In a biological sense if you're in a infirtle gender it only makes sense for you to be asexual  And vice versa.

 

3.  Even if We grant that they are only a sexual in other forms. Why would you as a singer Reproduce in an asexual form. If you wish to reproduce. Why not switch to a form that could appreciate sex more. That only makes sense.

 

4.  Granted that phrasing of "several"  Could imply 1 or 2 more. But none the less they must be very rare. So far every form we've seen other than slave and mate form has been nueter gender  Which is at the very least asexual former likely both asexual and infertile Either way it's doubtful that They will be reproducing in these Forms

Edited March 27 by bmcclure7

[Argenti]

12 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.  Another wob he calls them neuter gender That strongly implies they're infertile.

 

2. This isn't an either or,  you can be both asexual and infertile in fact. In a biological sense if you're in a infirtle gender it only makes sense for you to be asexual  And vice versa.

You're conflating gender and biological sex. In modern day English, these are two different things. The grammatical and common day usage are now only partially related to biological sex. Besides, gender and sex have nothing  to do with your sexual or romantic attraction, pretty much any combo is possible.

[alder24]

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1.  Another wob he calls them neuter gender That strongly implies they're infertile.

This WoB is newer and Brandon directly said many forms are capable of reproducing. This is as straightforward as it can be.

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. This isn't an either or,  you can be both asexual and infertile in fact. In a biological sense if you're in a infirtle gender it only makes sense for you to be asexual  And vice versa.

And you can also be fertile and asexual. 

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

3.  Even if We grant that they are only a sexual in other forms. Why would you as a singer Reproduce in an asexual form. If you wish to reproduce. Why not switch to a form that could appreciate sex more. That only makes sense.

Many reasons. You want to lower your chances of fertilization (but it still happened), you don't like being in the Mateform, you just have an opportunity now as your partner is leaving shortly and you can't wait for a storm to change forms, you didn't become a Mateform unlike your partner (it happened before Listeners started using gemstones to trap spren), or maybe something tragic happened and it wasn't consensual. Does it make sense now?

15 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

4.  Granted that phrasing of "several"  Could imply 1 or 2 more

The definition of "several" from Oxford Languages is "more than two but not many." Mateform and Slaveform aren't the only forms that feel sexual attraction, but this is separate from being able to reproduce. Asexuallity doesn't mean infertility, those things are separate.

[QuantumAce]

20 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

4.  Granted that phrasing of "several"  Could imply 1 or 2 more. But none the less they must be very rare. So far every form we've seen other than slave and mate form has been nueter gender  Which is at the very least asexual former likely both asexual and infertile Either way it's doubtful that They will be reproducing in these Forms

I agree it is doubtful they will be reproducing in forms outside of slave and mate form, but it is a stretch to assume it is also impossible. Asexual but potentially fertile achieves virtually the same effect, but leaves the door open if Brandon wants to get creative later. 

[bmcclure7]

6 hours ago, alder24 said:

This WoB is newer and Brandon directly said many forms are capable of reproducing. This is as straightforward as it can be.

And you can also be fertile and asexual. 

Many reasons. You want to lower your chances of fertilization (but it still happened), you don't like being in the Mateform, you just have an opportunity now as your partner is leaving shortly and you can't wait for a storm to change forms, you didn't become a Mateform unlike your partner (it happened before Listeners started using gemstones to trap spren), or maybe something tragic happened and it wasn't consensual. Does it make sense now?

The definition of "several" from Oxford Languages is "more than two but not many." Mateform and Slaveform aren't the only forms that feel sexual attraction, but this is separate from being able to reproduce. Asexuallity doesn't mean infertility, those things are separate.

1. if the chance of firtalization is lowered then the chance of theses unions producing a hybred child is unlikly. it os therefore unlikly that that of the majority of the hybids  We're conceived in anything other than mate form  Or a similar form.

2. As I said it's possible there are one Maybe 2 more but we haven't met that 1 yet so we can't be certain. However clearly most forms are Not used for mating. 

[alder24]

17 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

1. if the chance of firtalization is lowered then the chance of theses unions producing a hybred child is unlikly. it os therefore unlikly that that of the majority of the hybids  We're conceived in anything other than mate form  Or a similar form.

But it's still possible. 

17 hours ago, bmcclure7 said:

2. As I said it's possible there are one Maybe 2 more but we haven't met that 1 yet so we can't be certain. However clearly most forms are Not used for mating. 

As Brandon said "Mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than Warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations" - even Rlain in a Dullform was able to learn how to fight with a spear in WoR. You are literally arguing with Brandon at this point. I'm not saying that all are capable of reproduction, but many, if not all are, even if most are asexual and may have reduced chances of fertilization.

[Treamayne]

Just a couple points to consider (though I am not sure I believe "other forms" were involved in Human/Singer hybrids), to aid discussion:

• The singer half of the relationship does not need to be female (femalen) - See below
• Even if the Forms express different characteristics based on the Gemheart Spren Bond - the Singer Physical DNA would have to be able to express all of the non-Investiture traits that change (e. g. A form with little to no Carapace, like Dullform, still needs to have DNA to express Carapace when in Warform (and others)) - so it may be possible that any given set of characteristics can all be passed no matter what form was currently used
  • Though, if this is true, then it's likely that "Current Form" traits are dominant, and other form's traits are recessive when children are conceived this way. 

Caution - Content that some may find objectionable:

Spoiler

Caution - Content is Adult, referencing assault

Spoiler

This may become Nightmare Fuel when you consider the possibility of somebody like The Pursuer The Defeated One  sexually assaulting humans (now or in the past) - especially if they were doing so in a Malen form that they expect to not be fertile (assuming Malen's are fertile, even if just really low fertility)

 

 

Edited March 29 by Treamayne
SPAG

[bmcclure7]

On 3/29/2024 at 8:23 AM, alder24 said:

But it's still possible. 

As Brandon said "Mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than Warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations" - even Rlain in a Dullform was able to learn how to fight with a spear in WoR. You are literally arguing with Brandon at this point. I'm not saying that all are capable of reproduction, but many, if not all are, even if most are asexual and may have reduced chances of fertilization.

that quote just proves my point.

1. Rlain never went into combate in dull form, who didnt even learn the spear in dull form just heild one.

2. Not a single parshendi went to war in anything other then warform. 

3.  im not argue with dradon your just using him out of context. 

@alder24 

1. No fear Malen form cant even grow a beard i doudt it can get hard. 

2. at the very least malen is asexual i doudt he would have any interest in sex consenual  or otherwise. 

Edited March 31 by bmcclure7