7th heightening invested objects question.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

I feel like 7th heightening should be able to sense far more than just awakened objects... but I am trying to figure out what it is doing and what it could sense.  

If it is sensing the investiture in a non living thing placed there by a living thing... then can't metalminds be detected?  Would lifeless count as something that can be felt by someone of the 7th heightening in a manner similar to how life sense works for living folks?  

Would it sense any highly invested object?  Things that have been effected by surges?  Aethers?  I know the whole "spill light on the floor using surge X Y or Z to create an impossible obstacle."   Would the 7th heightening sense that Kaladin just poured stormlight onto his shield? 

What about infused vs dun gems? 

Edited March 21, 2024 by Tamriel Wolfsbaine

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I feel like 7th heightening should be able to sense far more than just awakened objects... but I am trying to figure out what it is doing and what it could sense.  

If it is sensing the investiture in a non living thing placed there by a living thing... then can't metalminds be detected?  Would lifeless count as something that can be felt by someone of the 7th heightening in a manner similar to how life sense works for living folks?  

Would it sense any highly invested object?  Things that have been effected by surges?  Aethers?  I know the whole "spill light on the floor using surge X Y or Z to create an impossible obstacle."   Would the 7th heightening sense that Kaladin just poured stormlight onto his shield? 

What about infused vs dun gems? 

Unclear if it is sensing "invetiture" generally, or Breath specifically. In this WoB (annotation):

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Life Sense as Part of the Magic

The ability of the Heightenings and Breath to give people an added dose of life sense was part of my attempts to make Awakening, as a magic system, feel more visceral and real. Allomancy is a great magic system, but I wanted a different feel here. In Allomancy, the powers granted are more like superpowers; with Awakening, I wanted something that felt . . . well, closer to what people already do.

Perfect pitch and perfect color recognition are two things that I think resonate this way; the ability to bring inanimate objects to life may seem wildly superpowerish, but I think it's a part of our own superstition and mythology—or at least the superstition and mythology of our past. Life from things inanimate, like spontaneous generation, was long assumed as something real. Witches were often thought to be able to bring sticks or bundles of cloth to life.

I think that there's still a lot of superstition in our modern world regarding how it feels to have someone watching you. We are more aware of our surroundings, sometimes, than we realize. I think we attribute a supernatural connection to some of these things. Who knows? Maybe there is one. I don't know, perhaps I've got a bit of it myself.

Enhancing this and making it part of the magic was a way to get the visceral feel I was looking for. It also plays off the idea that by giving up your Breath, you give up part of your life. The fact that Drabs can't be noticed by life sense allows me to show that they have taken one more step toward being objects themselves.

BioChroma. It turns objects into living things, but turns living things into objects as well.

Warbreaker Annotations (Sept. 28, 2010)

It's implied that Breath is what specifically being sensed - the increase in "life" - which would imply you could sense anything "Awakened" even if it were not Awakened with BioChroma, but not just general "investiture."

Granted that annotation was more about 4th Heightening, not 7th (but there do not appear to be any WoBs on Seventh Heightening, except the one where he is discussing Instinctive Awakening, and cannot remember when answering if that was sixth or seventh (it is Sixth)

Edited March 22, 2024 by Treamayne
SPAG/Clarity

[Quantus he/him]

Life sense can detect things like Spren so it shouldnt be restricted to Breaths and Awakening specifically.  It seems to excess at detecting Static Investiture as compared to A-Bronze that detects Kinetic investiture.  Presumably it would be able to detect anything in range that is significantly Invested, including godmetals and shardpools, metalminds, charged white sand (if it's sensitive enough), spren/seons/skaze, Dor Devices that maintain power, animals with Spren (or Worm?) Bonds, etc.  

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Unclear if it is sensing "invetiture" generally, or Breath specifically. In this WoB (annotation):

  Hide contents

Brandon Sanderson

Life Sense as Part of the Magic

The ability of the Heightenings and Breath to give people an added dose of life sense was part of my attempts to make Awakening, as a magic system, feel more visceral and real. Allomancy is a great magic system, but I wanted a different feel here. In Allomancy, the powers granted are more like superpowers; with Awakening, I wanted something that felt . . . well, closer to what people already do.

Perfect pitch and perfect color recognition are two things that I think resonate this way; the ability to bring inanimate objects to life may seem wildly superpowerish, but I think it's a part of our own superstition and mythology—or at least the superstition and mythology of our past. Life from things inanimate, like spontaneous generation, was long assumed as something real. Witches were often thought to be able to bring sticks or bundles of cloth to life.

I think that there's still a lot of superstition in our modern world regarding how it feels to have someone watching you. We are more aware of our surroundings, sometimes, than we realize. I think we attribute a supernatural connection to some of these things. Who knows? Maybe there is one. I don't know, perhaps I've got a bit of it myself.

Enhancing this and making it part of the magic was a way to get the visceral feel I was looking for. It also plays off the idea that by giving up your Breath, you give up part of your life. The fact that Drabs can't be noticed by life sense allows me to show that they have taken one more step toward being objects themselves.

BioChroma. It turns objects into living things, but turns living things into objects as well.

Warbreaker Annotations (Sept. 28, 2010)

It's implied that Breath is what specifically being sensed - the increase in "life" - which would imply you could sense anything "Awakened" even if it were not Awakened with BioChroma, but not just general "investiture."

Granted that annotation was more about 4th Heightening, not 7th (but there do not appear to be any WoBs on Seventh Heightening, except the one where he is discussing Instinctive Awakening, and cannot remember when answering if that was sixth or seventh (it is Sixth)

However we also know that lifesense senses people who never had any breath at all due to higher any levels of innate investiture at all basically. 

Kaladin was mistaken for having a hightening at one point and I personally think that was because as he progresses through oaths there is more innate investiture in himself anyways. 

33 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Life sense can detect things like Spren so it shouldnt be restricted to Breaths and Awakening specifically.  It seems to excess at detecting Static Investiture as compared to A-Bronze that detects Kinetic investiture.  Presumably it would be able to detect anything in range that is significantly Invested, including godmetals and shardpools, metalminds, charged white sand (if it's sensitive enough), spren/seons/skaze, Dor Devices that maintain power, animals with Spren (or Worm?) Bonds, etc.  

This is kind of what I thought.  

More specifically now I am curious if a lifeless would be sensed by life sense or by the 7th heightening being treated as an object more than a person. 

[alder24]

Yeah, Life Sense detects Innate Investiture, A-bronze does kinetic investiture and the 7th Heightening, named Invested Breath Recognition, detects invested objects - static investiture. It seems like Awakening invest via static investiture rather than innate or kinetic, as Awakened objects are both undetectable to Life Sense and A-bronze:

Spoiler

Questioner

Would a Seeker know if something's endowed with Breath or if someone was holding it?

Brandon Sanderson

Seekers have a lot of trouble with just detecting Investiture that isn't being used in some way. They could catch Stormlight that you've breathed in, because it's starting to do stuff. If just something has Stormlight, like a gemstone or something like that...

Questioner

I meant from Warbreaker. If you'd endowed like, a large thing with that, could you see that?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, something with Breath, could they find that with a Seeker. That's right. There are theoretical applications of this, but I would say your average Seeker, no. There is a way to get there but if you just took a Seeker from - and said do you - they would not be able to do that.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

 

[Treamayne]

4 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

More specifically now I am curious if a lifeless would be sensed by life sense or by the 7th heightening being treated as an object more than a person. 

Well, we see that Vivenna cannot sense Clod (or Jewels).

39 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Life sense can detect things like Spren so it shouldnt be restricted to Breaths and Awakening specifically

Right, but is that because of Investiture or because of Sapience? 

6 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Kaladin was mistaken for having a hightening at one point and I personally think that was because as he progresses through oaths there is more innate investiture in himself anyways

Well, Riino, as an Elantrian Ire, could tell Kaladin was invested - we know he "sensed" Kaladin, but we do not know if that was also how he determined that Kal was invested, nor do we know if Riino's methods were based on BioChroma, related (same principals), or entirely different. 

35 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Life Sense detects Innate Investiture,

Do you have the WoB for this half, because that's the one I said I could not find in my earlier post? Agreed that A-Bronze is "sensing" kinetic investiture rhythms, but I cannot confirm if Life Sense is any Innate Investiture, or Innate Investiture of or bonded to Sapience. 

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Do you have the WoB for this half, because that's the one I said I could not find in my earlier post? Agreed that A-Bronze is "sensing" kinetic investiture rhythms, but I cannot confirm if Life Sense is any Innate Investiture, or Innate Investiture of or bonded to Sapience. 

Any life, any innate investiture in living organisms. It even detects trees or grass. Warbreaker ch 21:

Quote

Although it was dark, Vasher’s life sense was strong. He could just faintly feel the grass growing below and knew how far away it was.

Epilogue:

Quote

She said nothing of that; she just walked on, her life sense letting her feel the jungle around them.

Awakening doesn't make things alive, they are still dead chunks of flesh, metal or fiber - it just brings them a bit closer to life and sentience. Vivenna has never felt Nightblood via Life Sense so this also applies to Sapient Awakened entities. ch 54:

Quote

Vivenna? The voice was faint, but she could just barely make it out. And recognize it.
“Nightblood?” she whispered.
Vivenna. Come get me
[...]
Suddenly concerned, she shoved her way through the crowd, ignoring yells that she should stay back. She climbed up the stairs, passing door after door. In her haste, she almost missed the one with black smoke creeping out under it.

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

8 minutes ago, alder24 said:

Any life, any innate investiture in living organisms. It even detects trees or grass. Warbreaker ch 21:

Epilogue:

Awakening doesn't make things alive, they are still dead chunks of flesh, metal or fiber - it just brings them a bit closer to life and sentience. Vivenna has never felt Nightblood via Life Sense so this also applies to Sapient Awakened entities. ch 54:

I never thought about that quote before but now I am really curious.... Vivenna didn't know nightblood was there but he knew she was... she was close enough he could call to her specifically and I imagine he didn't call out into anyone else in that crowds mind either. 

[alder24]

8 minutes ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

I never thought about that quote before but now I am really curious.... Vivenna didn't know nightblood was there but he knew she was... she was close enough he could call to her specifically and I imagine he didn't call out into anyone else in that crowds mind either. 

Yes, she heard something weird happened in the docks and she found a crowd gathered there, then Nightblood called her, specifically her. Nightblood can talk to people he chooses to - in RoW it was said that Nightblood was talking to many men walking past Szeth, until Dalinar ordered Szeth to silence the sword. At one point Nightblood even talked to Dalinar. Nightblood has a Life Sense of his own (he has a big BioChromatic Aura around him too) and can sense people and even recognise them - he often kew Denth was close, but not in ch 51 where Denth captured Vasher as a Drab. 

[Tamriel Wolfsbaine]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

Yes, she heard something weird happened in the docks and she found a crowd gathered there, then Nightblood called her, specifically her. Nightblood can talk to people he chooses to - in RoW it was said that Nightblood was talking to many men walking past Szeth, until Dalinar ordered Szeth to silence the sword. At one point Nightblood even talked to Dalinar. Nightblood has a Life Sense of his own (he has a big BioChromatic Aura around him too) and can sense people and even recognise them - he often kew Denth was close, but not in ch 51 where Denth captured Vasher as a Drab. 

Do you suppose Vivennas blade has a similar life sense?  

[alder24]

10 hours ago, Tamriel Wolfsbaine said:

Do you suppose Vivennas blade has a similar life sense?  

It seems so. It's heavily invested, self-aware and it senses people at least through touch. But it really depends on how differently this blade was made from Nightblood. OB ch 108:

Quote

“Draw her carefully,” Azure said to Borea, the first mate, as Shallan approached. “Don’t pull her out all the way—she doesn’t know you.”
Borea wore a uniform like the captain’s, all stiff and no-nonsense. She undid a small latch on the Shardblade, eased it from its sheath a half inch, then drew in a sharp breath. “It … tingles.”
“She’s investigating you,” Azure said.